Sorry Anti-Choicers - SCOTUS is wrong.

[JoeB131]

Yup, it's from 1973, LOL immediately after the RvW decision and it shows the majority support abortion. THanks

Got any thing more current?

Well, you clearly don't understand what a "majority" is. A majority is more than 50%. 46-45% isn't a "Majority". It's a Plurality.

I think you don't understand the concept of commitment, either. The minority that wants to end legal abortion is far more committed. Took them 50 years, but they got Roe off the books.

Who says? You? That's nice. It's a statement, not an argument, contains no reasoning. IMO if you are irresponsible, all the more reason NOT to become a parent. So even your statement is empty of logic.

Nope. most responsibility comes from CONSEQUENCES. This is why we have so many man-babies living with their parents into their 30s.

LOL and yet you ignore the polls you refuse to find and ignore the fact that all but one state GIVEN the opportunity to end or weaken abortion restrictions voted FOR abortion.

Sorry, but abortion isnt playing the role you hoped it would and Americans have other things to worry about. We are moving forward, not back.

Nope, you'll eventually lose because you've aborted yourselves out of existence.

I dont care what you want and neither do women that dont know you. You havent articulated any argument here at all.

Sure I have, just not one you like.

There's not a big divide on this. Abortion on demand is a minority view. Abortion only in the case of threat to the woman's life is a minority view.

A bunch of us are here in the center, not really taking either extreme.

 

[JoeB131]

Prove it. Your numbers dont. You claimed marriage meant that men could no longer run off. I showed that was wrong. You dont have any other reasoning to fall back on.

The numbers proved exactly that. When we had CONSEQUENCES, we had a very low illegitimacy rate, even with abortion being illegal and contraception being difficult to get.

People were-- responsible.

 

[Lursa]

Well, you clearly don't understand what a "majority" is. A majority is more than 50%. 46-45% isn't a "Majority". It's a Plurality.

It's a majority of those polled. And again, that was over 40 yrs ago, yet you keep telling me that today they are "far more committed."

Great, find the polls TODAY and prove it. Put up or ...?

I think you don't understand the concept of commitment, either. The minority that wants to end legal abortion is far more committed. Took them 50 years, but they got Roe off the books.

See above.

And today, Dobbs still does not recognize any rights for the unborn and enables women/their doctors to kill their unborn with no due process and nearly every state does.

Nope. most responsibility comes from CONSEQUENCES. This is why we have so many man-babies living with their parents into their 30s.

And yet I just gave you a detailed counterargument and you are just writing 'na huh.' You are not refuting my example in the least. YOur unsupported comments are not debate.

Nope, you'll eventually lose because you've aborted yourselves out of existence.

The younger generations are rejecting religion more and more and having fewer and fewer kids, period. Your wishful thinking is baseless.

Sure I have, just not one you like.

No, it doesnt directly answer the question...dont lie. You just didnt expect to see the law big and bright and real. And are unprepared to deal with it. So, you answered in bad faith. Noted.

There's not a big divide on this. Abortion on demand is a minority view. Abortion only in the case of threat to the woman's life is a minority view.

That's called 'elective' abortion and the majority of Americans support it

A bunch of us are here in the center, not really taking either extreme.

There nothing 'centrist' about your position, I asked you how the govt would determine "who's been responsible?" Didnt see an answer. You couldnt even articulate your reasoning about the US Code.

 

[Lursa]

The numbers proved exactly that. When we had CONSEQUENCES, we had a very low illegitimacy rate, even with abortion being illegal and contraception being difficult to get.

People were-- responsible.

They didnt. Abortions were going down after RvW...and are now going up again after Dobbs.

Oh look a source on abortion opinion. It's a freebie since I had it on hand.

And here's one on the numbers dropping:



And this:

Updated on May 10, 2024​

​

"New findings from the Monthly Abortion Provision Study show that an estimated 1,037,000 abortions occurred in the formal health care system in 2023, the first full calendar year after the US Supreme Court’s decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization overturned Roe v. Wade. This represents a rate of 15.9 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age,* and is a 11% increase since 2020, the last year for which comprehensive estimates are available. It is also the highest number and rate measured in the United States in over a decade."​

​

Despite Bans, Number of Abortions in the United States Increased in 2023

www.guttmacher.org

 

[Bodi]

@Gordy327
@Lursa
@choiceone

This guy, @JoeB131 is so NOT Slightly Liberal... his tactic is infiltrate, disseminate and disrupt.

 

[Lursa]

@Gordy327
@Lursa
@choiceone

This guy, @JoeB131 is so NOT Slightly Liberal... his tactic is infiltrate, disseminate and disrupt.

I never thought he was any lean of liberal.

 

[Lursa]

Link for the chart in post 429. I like this one too tho:



Also demonstrates that abortion numbers had been going very steadily down...until Dobbs when we start seeing an uptick. link

 

[JoeB131]

It's a majority of those polled. And again, that was over 40 yrs ago, yet you keep telling me that today they are "far more committed."

You didn't ask for today, you asked for at the time... and at the time, despite the bill of goods the pro-choice side was selling, most people were not really on board.

They still aren't. Abortion should be legal in ALL circumstances is as much a minority view as should be illegal in all circumstances.

And today, Dobbs still does not recognize any rights for the unborn and enables women/their doctors to kill their unborn with no due process and nearly every state does.

Not sure why you keep harping on this. That wasn't the question Dobbs was asked.

And yet I just gave you a detailed counterargument and you are just writing 'na huh.' You are not refuting my example in the least. YOur unsupported comments are not debate.

Except I did support it by pointing out that since Roe, the illegitimacy rate went from 10% to 40%.

The younger generations are rejecting religion more and more and having fewer and fewer kids, period. Your wishful thinking is baseless.

Um, that was kind of my point. That viewpoint is aborting itself out of existence. MEANWHILE, the people who think that abortion makes baby Jesus cry are having bunches of kids.

That's called 'elective' abortion and the majority of Americans support it

No, they really don't. They TOLERATE it. It's not quite the same thing. I tolerate abortion, I don't support it.

hey didnt. Abortions were going down after RvW...and are now going up again after Dobbs.

Oh look a source on abortion opinion. It's a freebie since I had it on hand.

And here's one on the numbers dropping:

Except according to that chart, the numbers started going up again in 2019, not 2022. Fail.

This guy, @JoeB131 is so NOT Slightly Liberal... his tactic is infiltrate, disseminate and disrupt.

Naw, you should see what I do on the more conservative board I post on. I challenge conventional thinking. The problem I see is the Democrats have become so radicalized (as have the Republicans) is that they are turning off the vast majority of voters. In a sane world, let's say 40 years ago, someone as radical as Trump never would have gotten elected. Quite the contrary, when major parties nominated extreme characters, like Goldwater or McGovern, they lost and they lost by convincing margins.

Abortion is an issue where the most insane, radical people on both sides have come to dominate the debate.

I never thought he was any lean of liberal.

Well, I'm not the crazy, purple-haired kind of person who lost the election last year, that's for sure. I'm the kind of person who held his nose, voted for Harris, and realized the Democrats stepped into a big old pile of manure with their radical positions.

 

[Gordy327]

And it will fail, unless Democrats get their shit together.

History indicates otherwise.

the one where your supposed imaginary right was based on the opinion of nine unelected lawyers.

You seem to think Justices are or should be elected to their positions?

 

[JoeB131]

History indicates otherwise.

If history is a guide, I suspect this country is going to become a lot more conservative.

Trump is a complete buffoon, but he won election twice. He probably would have won in 2020 if it hadn't been for COVID-19.

I find what he says to be repulsive, but he's clearly resonating with a large part of the electorate that doesn't respond well to what the Democrats are selling.

You seem to think Justices are or should be elected to their positions?

I think we shouldn't have lifetime appointments and justices barely on life support being propped up by their law clerks like RBG and Thurgood Marshall were at the end.

I think a ten-year term would be fine.

But what I really don't want is justices of either political stripe making law, because that isn't their job.

 

[choiceone]

My neice is about to have her second kid. I had no idea the evil little monster was doing this. Neither did she, she's pretty excited.

I'm just guessing here, but I suppose your niece wanted to get pregnant and then did and so unequivocally consented to the pregnancy for the whole time. It's like with sex - if the woman consents, it isn't evil - it's when she doesn't consent and someone uses force against her will.

 

[Gordy327]

If history is a guide, I suspect this country is going to become a lot more conservative.

The pendulum keeps swinging. Nothing new there. But history shows the tighter the leash, the greater the pushback.

Trump is a complete buffoon, but he won election twice. He probably would have won in 2020 if it hadn't been for COVID-19.

I find what he says to be repulsive, but he's clearly resonating with a large part of the electorate that doesn't respond well to what the Democrats are selling.

Particular Politicians is not the focus here.

I think we shouldn't have lifetime appointments and justices barely on life support being propped up by their law clerks like RBG and Thurgood Marshall were at the end.

The Founding Fathers thought differently.

But what I really don't want is justices of either political stripe making law, because that isn't their job.

They do not. Neither have you demonstrated when they did or what the specific law was.

 

[choiceone]

He could say that, it just wasn't true. I was around when Roe happened. Now, admirably, I grew up in a very Catholic community, but they all thought Roe was the worst thing that ever happened. But as a more practical matter, Republicans won running against Roe for years. Democrats run away from it as much as possible. (Like Slick Willy's "legal, safe and rare" comment.)




Most of the cluster that is Obamacare is still there. Because rather than just proposing a nice, simple program, they decided to force everyone to buy private insurance or pay a tax penalty. Which is why everyone hated it.


because that's how we make laws in this country.



Sure they can, until the courts rule fetuses have human rights, and we are a lot closer to that than you think.




Well funny thing about that.

We passed three amendments to do exactly that.. which were promptly ignored for 100 years. Because people in the South weren't willing to go along with that.

That's the problem with making laws without consensus.

Got it. You're a Catholic. It explains just about everything.

Well, guess what? I'm not. I was raised a mainstream Protestant, and when I first learned there were state anti-abortion laws, I was absolutely appalled, because I knew, and had known since I was a tiny girl, that my body belonged to me, and my sex organs belonged to me, and that no one else had any right to use them without my consent. It was disgusting to me that others in society thought they could use them without my consent. I have never, ever changed.

Men generally didn't think rape the serious crime it was unless it occurred to their wife, girlfriend, daughter, or sister, or a man. And even then, they often thought women should accept the fact that men can have sex with them regardless of what they want, and that women have babies whether they want to or not. But when I was growing up, if you learned one thing from Protestant Christianity, it was that you as a girl/woman had a right to say no. You certainly didn't learn that embryos or fetuses had rights. You didn't learn that they were people.

Everyone knew that women made and grew babies. They knew perfectly well that a God that is Love didn't rape women and couldn't possibly have made them pregnant when they were raped and so couldn't possibly have made any of the babies that grew from rape impregnation. They knew, therefore, that not all apparent people were made by God. In fact, the OT clearly shows this is the case in a passage where God replies to some people, saying, " Why are you coming and complaining to me? I am not your father. I am not your mother's husband. Go to her and tell her to cease her adulteries." I'm sick of people trying to stuff Catholic beliefs down the throats of people who don't share that religion.

 

[choiceone]

For anyone who wants abortion polls from the early 1970s:

How has public opinion about abortion changed since Roe v. Wade?

States are a critical battleground over abortion rights, and polling reveals where opinions stand at the state and national level.

www.pbs.org

 

[choiceone]

If history is a guide, I suspect this country is going to become a lot more conservative.

Trump is a complete buffoon, but he won election twice. He probably would have won in 2020 if it hadn't been for COVID-19.

I find what he says to be repulsive, but he's clearly resonating with a large part of the electorate that doesn't respond well to what the Democrats are selling.



I think we shouldn't have lifetime appointments and justices barely on life support being propped up by their law clerks like RBG and Thurgood Marshall were at the end.

I think a ten-year term would be fine.

But what I really don't want is justices of either political stripe making law, because that isn't their job.

It's possible that it'll become more conservative before changing, but it is definitely going to shift left in the end, for at least two reasons. First, when many of the poorly educated MAGA voters discover how much of Medicare and Medicaid are altered, and how much of the safety net is restricted, it will be affecting them a lot, because many many of them use these services.

Trust me, they didn't vote for a tax cut for the very rich, and they'll be quite disappointed. This has already been happening, which is why so many town hall confrontations are now occurring.

No one voted to take over Greenland, make Canada a US state, or use military force to take back Panama. The majority of Americans supported Ukraine. No one even remotely imagined that Trump and Musk would shut thousands of workers out of the government server overnight, or fire for incompetence workers who had received commendations for their efficiency and accuracy.

But it isn't abortion law that made people vote for Trump in 2024, either. Some people did vote for him for that reason in 2020. It never occurred to a number of Texas Republicans that they themselves would almost die because of their stupid state anti-abortion laws. But that all happened in the 1960s, so we've been here before. You vote for anti-abortion people at your peril, because they're ignorant, disrespectful of the personhood of women, and unable to grasp that a woman who chose to give birth to each of them was doing each a favor of grace that they can never repay. It wasn't a duty.

 

[Lursa]

You didn't ask for today, you asked for at the time... and at the time, despite the bill of goods the pro-choice side was selling, most people were not really on board.

No, we discussed "at the time" and then you keep saying that "it's changing!" "The trend is towards more pro-life!" "We're moving more towards ending abortion" etc. And my links showed otherwise.

They still aren't. Abortion should be legal in ALL circumstances is as much a minority view as should be illegal in all circumstances.

View attachment 67562157

That's one state, it's not a national poll. Intentional deception is posting in bad faith. What are you hiding?

Thanks tho. Do the math, it shows that the majority of people in that state still support elective abortion.

Not sure why you keep harping on this. That wasn't the question Dobbs was asked.

Oh I know...but it's what it resulted in. Pro-life wanted RvW overturned to protect the unborn...and that's not what it was based on. At all.

Except I did support it by pointing out that since Roe, the illegitimacy rate went from 10% to 40%.

Who cares? I dont care who's married or how many. We're discussing abortion. What does that have to do with reducing abortions?

Um, that was kind of my point. That viewpoint is aborting itself out of existence. MEANWHILE, the people who think that abortion makes baby Jesus cry are having bunches of kids.

Sure, I find that hilarious but you can believe it. It's an opinion, I cant change your mind but it's pretty funny. And I dont know why you think it matters to me? As a person of principle, I believe in personal liberty and the Const and respect for women's lives. This is why I support the "pro-choice" view...I support the woman's choice....

And until Dobbs, the abortion rate was going down every year so I dont really think that you're reading the room well

No, they really don't. They TOLERATE it. It's not quite the same thing. I tolerate abortion, I don't support it.

You are making an assumption. You assume the majority of Americans dismiss women's lives and health and self-determination the same way you do. I disagree

You are making the assumption that abortion is wrong, that people think it's wrong, yet the majority of Americans recognize it's need and support elective abortion. Who says abortion is wrong? The fact that you avoid that question over and over shows you only come up empty there and cant answer it. Why should women that dont believe it and need abortions care if you do?

Except according to that chart, the numbers started going up again in 2019, not 2022. Fail.

During covid, during lockdown...and continues to climb after Dobbs. Nice try.

 

[Lursa]

Naw, you should see what I do on the more conservative board I post on. I challenge conventional thinking. The problem I see is the Democrats have become so radicalized (as have the Republicans) is that they are turning off the vast majority of voters. In a sane world, let's say 40 years ago, someone as radical as Trump never would have gotten elected. Quite the contrary, when major parties nominated extreme characters, like Goldwater or McGovern, they lost and they lost by convincing margins.

You arent challenging anything and havent posted a single original thing that hasnt been posted here before.

And I dont care about your opinions. At all.

Abortion is an issue where the most insane, radical people on both sides have come to dominate the debate.

Now you are just making me laugh at your desperation.

Well, I'm not the crazy, purple-haired kind of person who lost the election last year, that's for sure. I'm the kind of person who held his nose, voted for Harris, and realized the Democrats stepped into a big old pile of manure with their radical positions.

Now you are just making me laugh at your desperation more. You have no debate, you are making it about your opponents, not the topic. That's the best example of your failure.

I asked you to share your requirements and reasoning if you dont agree with the US Code I posted. You refused, you posted complaining about women not being responsible...there's zero about "character" in that code

So I asked how the govt would determine "who's been responsible?" Didnt see an answer. You couldnt even articulate your own reasoning about the US Code. Post 412

 

[JoeB131]

I'm just guessing here, but I suppose your niece wanted to get pregnant and then did and so unequivocally consented to the pregnancy for the whole time. It's like with sex - if the woman consents, it isn't evil - it's when she doesn't consent and someone uses force against her will.

Okay, I'm all for allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest.

I just don't think much of women who do it for birth control. Neither do most people.

Again- I don't think we should bring back prohibition, but I can't respect a falling-down drunk.

It's possible that it'll become more conservative before changing, but it is definitely going to shift left in the end, for at least two reasons. First, when many of the poorly educated MAGA voters discover how much of Medicare and Medicaid are altered, and how much of the safety net is restricted, it will be affecting them a lot, because many many of them use these services.

Okay, Medicare and Medicaid have to be fixed regardless of who is in. They aren't sustainable as they are. Same with Social Security.

If these people stuck with Trump through Covid, they aren't going to turn on him because of a little tweaking of Medicare.

But i wasn't talking about MAGA< I was talking about conservatism in general.

No one voted to take over Greenland, make Canada a US state, or use military force to take back Panama. The majority of Americans supported Ukraine. No one even remotely imagined that Trump and Musk would shut thousands of workers out of the government server overnight, or fire for incompetence workers who had received commendations for their efficiency and accuracy.

And, this isn't a discussion about Trump's clown show antics... it's about what values Americans hold. There's just not a lot of sympathy for Americans who probably change jobs about 10 times in their careers that a do-nothing bureaucrat is losing his lifetime job.

But it isn't abortion law that made people vote for Trump in 2024, either. Some people did vote for him for that reason in 2020. It never occurred to a number of Texas Republicans that they themselves would almost die because of their stupid state anti-abortion laws. But that all happened in the 1960s, so we've been here before. You vote for anti-abortion people at your peril, because they're ignorant, disrespectful of the personhood of women, and unable to grasp that a woman who chose to give birth to each of them was doing each a favor of grace that they can never repay. It wasn't a duty.

Except - Harris made preserving abortion rights the centerpiece of her campaign. She lost. She lost badly.

Trust me, they didn't vote for a tax cut for the very rich, and they'll be quite disappointed. This has already been happening, which is why so many town hall confrontations are now occurring.

Ugly truth. Americans don't like taxes. No one is going to get worked up about tax cuts.

The only thing that will take Trump down is if the economy goes into recession, and probably not even that. Repukes have taken us into recessions and still managed to win the next election (Reagan in 1984, Bush in 2004).

The over all problem you guys have is that most people don't like your positions on cultural issues. And culture trumps (no pun intended) economic issues. Now, sometimes, you guys can massage social change. For instance, Bush got re-elected in part in 2004 opposing gay marriage. But by 2011, SCOTUS found another one of those free prizes in their Box of Fourtheenth Amendment-O's and decided states couldn't make their own marriage laws. But by then, no one cared.

Abortion isn't the same. It's been 50 years since Roe, and people still don't like abortion.

 

[JoeB131]

That's one state, it's not a national poll. Intentional deception is posting in bad faith. What are you hiding?

Thanks tho. Do the math, it shows that the majority of people in that state still support elective abortion.

My bad, in that I didn't see it was a state poll. The problem with the polling is that a lot of it really doesn't break it down between "Birth control abortions" they use terms like "Legal in most cases". Well, which cases? Only about 26% believe in abortion in all cases.

Who cares? I dont care who's married or how many. We're discussing abortion. What does that have to do with reducing abortions?

Well, I am looking at the law of unintended consequences. When you absolve people of their responsibilities, they are going to be irresponsible.

Sure, I find that hilarious but you can believe it. It's an opinion, I cant change your mind but it's pretty funny. And I dont know why you think it matters to me? As a person of principle, I believe in personal liberty and the Const and respect for women's lives. This is why I support the "pro-choice" view...I support the woman's choice....

Seems more like you are celebrating what should be at best, a grudging tolerance of a rather nasty procedure.

My ideal world, there would be less abortions because contraception would always work, and women wouldn't have sex with men who aren't good father material. That's the way it SHOULD work. We have instead decided that we are going to enshrine irresponsibility as a right.

And until Dobbs, the abortion rate was going down every year so I dont really think that you're reading the room well

Actually, according to your own chart, it only spiked up again (slightly) in 2019, three years before Dobbs put Roe out of it's misery. Correlation isn't causality. The reason it went down was because of great accessibility to morning-after pills.

And I dont care about your opinions. At all.

Oh, so that's why you keep following me around, because you don't care?

 

[JoeB131]

For anyone who wants abortion polls from the early 1970s:

How has public opinion about abortion changed since Roe v. Wade?

States are a critical battleground over abortion rights, and polling reveals where opinions stand at the state and national level.

www.pbs.org

I think the key thing is "under certain circumstances". They never tell you which circumstances those are.

What I would like to see is a poll that gives the following options.

Rape
Incest
Threat to the woman's life
Threat to the woman's health
Severe fetal deformity
Birth control in the first trimester
Birth Control in the second Trimester, but still before viability
Birth Control in the Third Trimester.

It would be interesting to see how those numbers break out.

Obviously, the severely pro-life people would probably agree to some of those, but not all of them depending how committed they are.

 

[Lursa]

My bad, in that I didn't see it was a state poll. The problem with the polling is that a lot of it really doesn't break it down between "Birth control abortions" they use terms like "Legal in most cases". Well, which cases? Only about 26% believe in abortion in all cases.

So...go find other current, national, non-religious polls and see for yourself. And I never said all cases. I said the majority of Americans support non-medical (elective) abortion to some extent. And so far, almost every state does so, depending on term/weeks.

Well, I am looking at the law of unintended consequences. When you absolve people of their responsibilities, they are going to be irresponsible.

I dont give a crap about any of that...you want to control behavior...I listed reasons why that has failed throughout history. No one is absolving anyone of responsibility, abortion can be a very responsible option. It also prevents your "unintended social consequences." Here, previously posted:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.​

​

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and believe you or your partner will abuse or neglect.​

​

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.​

​

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.​

​

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant/having a child and not being able to fulfill your other commitments and obligations to family, dependents, employer, church, community, society.​

​

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.​

Unless you choose to ignore the definition of "responsibility" this list is accurate. I dont expect you to like it but it's factual. It certainly makes sense when people like you complain about irresponsible people that shouldnt become parents...it makes ZERO sense to deny them the chance to avoid it...like abortion.

 

[JoeB131]

So...go find other current, national, non-religious polls and see for yourself.

Nope, I've done enough poll hunting for you.

Here's why I don't do links for conservatives or liberals.... Because you either pretend you didn't see them or complain about the sourcing. So I only do a link when it amuses me.

I dont give a crap about any of that...you want to control behavior...I listed reasons why that has failed throughout history. No one is absolving anyone of responsibility, abortion can be a very responsible option.

There's nothing responsible about killing a child, and a lot of people think a fetus is a child.

This is the crux of the argument. The one the pro-choice crowd avoids.

Now, it's one thing to tolerate abortion because when you make something illegal, you just create an illegal market for it. This is my view on drugs, prostitution, alcohol, and abortion.

It's another to pretend any of these are good things.

 

[Lursa]

Seems more like you are celebrating what should be at best, a grudging tolerance of a rather nasty procedure.

What's nasty about it? The unborn does not suffer any pain or awareness. Even in later term medical abortions, lethal doses of anesthetic must be administered before removal. So spare me your attempts at guilt or emotional manipulation.

You chose to reduce my championing of women's rights and health and futures as 'grudging tolerance.' How petty.

My ideal world, there would be less abortions because contraception would always work, and women wouldn't have sex with men who aren't good father material. That's the way it SHOULD work. We have instead decided that we are going to enshrine irresponsibility as a right.

I dont care. And I dont even agree with your idea of how things "should' work. Couples should enjoy all the responsible consensual sex they want, it's a wonderful thing. And if birth control fails, well there's a medical procedure to take care of unplanned pregnancy if that's needed.

LOL your personal clinging to "abortion bad" isnt very effective...you cant even make a case for it.

Actually, according to your own chart, it only spiked up again (slightly) in 2019, three years before Dobbs put Roe out of it's misery. Correlation isn't causality. The reason it went down was because of great accessibility to morning-after pills.

The access to the pills didnt go down in the last few yrs, ...so that made no sense. And I explained the upswing started during covid lockdown and has continued after Dobbs. Please read better.

If you dont like the chart, find data that proves it wrong.

Oh, so that's why you keep following me around, because you don't care?

Ah...more defensive posturing. I dont care about your opinions, only reasonably supported debate...which you seem to have run out of. I'm here to see if posters have any new angles on the issues (you did not)...and also to confront them with a lot of stuff they didnt know, seeing them confirm Dark Ages mores. I'm providing constructive information...which they struggle mightily to refute (often unsuccessfully) and then just try to ignore. It's like that cycle of grief...denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance...with different stages of course. The last is usually "ignore it."

But I also believe that the information I post reaches others as well, and because it's constructive and accurate, hopefully helps educate.

 

[Lursa]

Nope, I've done enough poll hunting for you.

LOL and you admitted you failed. I dont care. If you dont, you cant prove mine are wrong. I'm good with that.

Here's why I don't do links for conservatives or liberals.... Because you either pretend you didn't see them or complain about the sourcing. So I only do a link when it amuses me.

Funny, just what you're doing...do you think about this stuff before you post it? And sources do count. For ex. why should I accept a state poll for a national issue, as requested?

Keep laughing while you fail...fine with me.

There's nothing responsible about killing a child, and a lot of people think a fetus is a child.

I posted exactly why abortion can be responsible and all you can post is "na huh but the babies!!!" Emotional and not even factual. But that's ok...posters like you always refuse to acknowledge the basic definitions of words and reality when they see that list.

This is the crux of the argument. The one the pro-choice crowd avoids.

We're pretty upfront that abortion kills the unborn. If you or others want to self-indulgently imagine "babies" or "children" inside strangers, that's disturbing but up to you/them. I stick to facts and dont fold under the emotional manipulation.

Now, it's one thing to tolerate abortion because when you make something illegal, you just create an illegal market for it. This is my view on drugs, prostitution, alcohol, and abortion.

That's your opinion. I've posted that it certainly benefits women and their families and their futures.

You listed things that are detrimental to society. There are no negative effects of abortion on society. If you disagree, please list some? Dont bother with population, there are millions of people that would love to immigrate here legally. And try to remember that if it's about irresponsible parents/ not marrying etc...that can be avoided by abortion...making it again, positive, not negative.

It's another to pretend any of these are good things.

Just abortion, when a woman decides she needs one and has the respect and support as an equal citizen to make the best choice or her life and future and that of her family.

 

[JoeB131]

What's nasty about it? The unborn does not suffer any pain or awareness. Even in later term medical abortions, lethal doses of anesthetic must be administered before removal. So spare me your attempts at guilt or emotional manipulation.

You chose to reduce my championing of women's rights and health and futures as 'grudging tolerance.' How petty.

If I were a pro-lifer, this is the point where I'd start posting pictures of aborted fetuses. But I'm sure that is against the rules here, so I won't.

Yes, most of the country grudgingly tolerates abortion. It's why it wasn't the winning issue that Harris thought it would be.

I dont care. And I dont even agree with your idea of how things "should' work. Couples should enjoy all the responsible consensual sex they want, it's a wonderful thing. And if birth control fails, well there's a medical procedure to take care of unplanned pregnancy if that's needed.

Which is being restricted now that you lost in court.

The access to the pills didnt go down in the last few yrs, ...so that made no sense. And I explained the upswing started during covid lockdown and has continued after Dobbs. Please read better.

If you dont like the chart, find data that proves it wrong.

Except the swing started in 2019, not 2020. So it wasn't what you claimed it was, that women were having more abortions now because of Dobbs.

I posted exactly why abortion can be responsible and all you can post is "na huh but the babies!!!"

Responsible is not having unprotected sex with strangers.

We're pretty upfront that abortion kills the unborn.

Then why do you need to use weasel words like "Fetus" and "unviable tissue mass" instead of "baby"?

ou listed things that are detrimental to society. There are no negative effects of abortion on society. If you disagree, please list some?

Well, the declining birth rate, to start with. We aren't reproducing at replacement rates right now. Gonna really suck for these childless cat ladies when they try to go on Social Security and find out the well is dry.

And I've already discussed how letting people be irresponsible has led to an increase in the illegitimacy rate.