kaya'08
DP Veteran
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- Centrist
The prime minister harshly and openly criticized the media Tuesday, accusing it for the first time of supporting a terrorist organization, while the opposition held the government’s Kurdish move responsible for the increased terror attacks.
Speaking at the parliamentary group meeting of his ruling Justice and Development Party, or AKP, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan criticized the images of grieving mothers on TV, calling them propaganda that will serve terrorists.
Look at that face. This is why i am Kemalist. This is why i vote republican. This is what religion does to you.
He has taken another step over that line of no return. God help us!
How do you fancy Recep Bey's chances next year?
So the Prime Minister of Turkey calls Israel "a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity," while his foreign minister compares Monday's Israeli naval raid on a flotilla of ships headed for the Gaza Strip, in which nine passengers were killed, to the attacks of September 11, 2001. For good measure, the Turks have also wagged their finger at the Obama Administration for not immediately denouncing Israel's actions.
Yet the more facts that come to light about the flotilla, its passengers and their sponsors, the more it seems clear that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Ergodan's government, far more so than Israel's, must be held to account for Monday's violent episode. Maybe that's something the U.N. Human Rights Council, which on Wednesday condemned Israel for an "outrageous attack" and voted 32-3 to set up a "fact-finding mission" (with the U.S. in opposition), might get around to investigating, though we wouldn't hold our breath.
The Turkish accounting should begin with a full explanation from the government of its relationship with the IHH, an Istanbul-based Islamic "charity" that purchased three of the six boats used in the flotilla from the city government, sent hundreds of its activists along with it, and reportedly has ties to Turkey's ruling Islamist AKP Party.
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Look at that face. This is why i am Kemalist. This is why i vote republican. This is what religion does to you.
He has taken another step over that line of no return. God help us!
God help you indeed, Kemalism was the basis for genocide against Greeks and ethnic cleansing of non-Turks. The CHP is even more nationalistic and radical than the AKP and would only increase ties to Russia and Iran and make more aggressive and destructive moves into Iraq. The CHP openly objected to the fact Turkey did not send its navy to protect the aid ships.
:roll:If the CHP had its way Turkey would have had a naval skirmish with Israel and made things far worse. Erdogan has been one of the best things for Turkey's human rights situation and bringing back the CHP will only return to past abuses.
Nationalism (Turkish: Milliyetçilik): The Kemalist revolution aimed to create a nation state (Turkish: Ulus) from the Turkish remnants of the Ottoman Empire. The meaning of Turkishness (Turkish: Türküm) is frequently misunderstood by those who fail to realize that it is not a description of ethnicity [the Turkic ethnicity] but a commitment to an 'imagined' nationhood of people living within the National Pact (Turkish: Misak-ı Milli) borders.[7] "Turkishness" (citizenship of Turkey) is the cornerstone of the Republic of Turkey.[7] Kemalist ideology defines the "Turkish People" as "those who protect and promote the moral, spiritual, cultural and humanistic values of the Turkish Nation."[8] Kemalist ideology defines the "Turkish Nation" as a nation of Turkish People who always love and seek to exalt their family, country and nation, who know their duties and responsibilities towards the democratic, secular and social state governed by the rule of law, founded on human rights, and on the tenets laid down in the preamble to the constitution of the Republic of Turkey.
Wrong. Kemalism is a secular movement based on the ideals of enlightenment which focuses on democracy and the protection of human rights within a republican state.
What genocide against Greeks?
The CHP NEVER stated the aid flotilla's should be protected but should have been warned about the dangers they faced by the Turkish government before they left.
Main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) Bursa deputy Onur Öymen, himself a former diplomat, says Turkey should have deployed war ships to accompany the aid convoy.
“There were statements that Israel was going to resort to violence to stop the flotilla. What did Turkey in light of these statements? Did Turkey take an initiative considering the possibility of such an attack?” Öymen asked in an interview with Today’s Zaman. Stating that the current situation shows that Turkey did not take necessary steps to protect these ships, he added that what is upsetting is that the government neither deterred Israel from an intervention nor properly protected the convoy.
They are the biggest opponents of the Turkey-Iran relationship and have stated repeatedly that Erdogan's anti-israel rhetoric is far too harsh (you really have no clue what you are talking about, do you?).
The first noteworthy move came from the main opposition Republican People’s Party, or CHP, leader Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu. He said: “Various circles have concerns over this issue. Seven soldiers were killed. This is something very important. As the Israeli marines continue operations, such an attack took place in Turkey. This is very intriguing,” as he answered the questions of reporters Monday.
Hell, the CHP brought us to the brink of war with Syria.
They are very pro-EU and have always been against shifting focus to Eastern nations.
Under the CHP Turkey fought in North Korea under NATO, contributed to the first gulf war and set up incirlik. Nothing about them in anyway fits your "sources".
Anyway, the CHP era in the 90's and 80's where locked by religious-secular infighting in Turkey which lead to several coups. Before then, the CHP has always been the biggest supporter of women rights and Western democracy. Erdogan has done a lot of good for Turkey at the same time a lot of bad, yes, but during CHP rule critizing the media was out of the question let alone banning websites.
Also, you confuse Kemalist nationalism with normal nationalism.
Also, remember under what party and what ideology became one of the first nations to recognize Israel and establish the soul mate like relations we once had.
Funny, because under Ataturk and his Kemalist successors Turkey was anything but respectful of human rights and democracy.
During the Greco-Turkish War Greeks were massacred in large numbers.
Really?:
Funny, because they also suggested Israel was involved in an attack by the PKK against the Turkish military:
Source: Hurriyet Daily News
Oh, and Turkey's tilt towards Iran began before Erdogan became Prime Minister and for obvious reasons. On the PKK Turkey and Iran have common cause. Also the secular leaders are looking more to Russia now, meaning they will be aligned with Iran either way.
Because at the time Syria was sheltering Abdullah Ocalan! Syria stopped and the relationship improved.
They have supported joining the EU, but the AKP has made a lot more effort at meeting the criteria and is currently much more supportive of joining the EU.
Two of these things happened in the fifties and the Gulf War even saw Syria fighting alongside the U.S. Just because we were allies at one point does not mean we will be allies forever.
You should take off the rose-colored glasses. Turkey's history under the Kemalist groups has been anything but democratic and respectful of human rights. Bringing up websites is kind of ridiculous considering the Internet was not the force it is today under the CHP and for much of the time didn't exist. The CHP and secular elite tried to ban the AKP to seize power and they have consistently backed military coups and suppression of free speech.
I am not confusing it with anything. Under Kemalist leadership Turkey's government has oppressed Greeks, Armenians, and even the Kurds who were partners under the Ottoman leadership. The CHP is far more radical as it concerns the Kurds and would only risk war with Iraq, which would put them directly at odds with the U.S.
I don't think Turkey would rescind recognition of Israel, but that does not mean they will remain allies. The fact is, both secularist and Islamist leaders in Turkey are moving away from Israel and the West and towards countries like Iran and Russia.
:lamo
Oh really? Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights. I was under the impression he abolished the caliphate and with it the ethnicly arranged and religiously discriminant political system adopted by the Ottoman empire.
Im also under the impression you have no idea what you are talking about, and that you say whatever your Jewish/Armenian/Nazi possy say.
Lots of people have died in Iraq. Is that a genocide? How about the Greek independence which led to large numbers of deaths of Turks? Was it not a war between two nation states?
He is the Bursa mayor of the main opposition party. Hardly represents the official views of the party. Give it up.
Actually from what i understand he was not making a suggestion about Israel being behind the attacks, but Israel and the US deliberately withholding intel.
Really? When?
Actually, before that even. Euphrates river should ring a bell.
The AKP uses the EU as an excuse to introduce reforms that weaken the secular grip on Turkish society and with it the judiciary. This is nothing but a slow and secret take over. The AKP never used to support joining the EU, but because it remains a popular institution in Turkey, it was a vote gatherer.
Syria does what it needs to meet its interests. The gulf war was just one of those things. The Turkey-US relationship has been a long one stretching back years. The core policies of the CHP remain unchanged.
The CHP did what they could to sustain our secularism. We let our eyes off the ball for a second and then what? Look whats happening today. The CHP may not have ruled during the digital hay day, but the media has always been around, and they have always been a guarantor of this free speech outlet.
Hell, as it stands, i myself support a coup. Because i know TAF will restore our secular democracy and put us back on the right track. Is this not what we all want? In our part of the world, people have to struggle to keep rational thinking alive in parliament. Secularism and civility doesn't come easy down this way. Look at our neighbours. A coup is nothing compared to the lengths most Turks would go to ensure our secularism.
Your still stuck with the CHP in the 60's mate.
Under the AKP, sure. :shrug:
And even if that was the case in general - you need to ask yourself, who is pushing Turkey in that direction?
He did create a secular government, this much is true, but so did Saddam. Have you heard of "enlightened despotism" where despots and absolutist monarchs embraced enlightenment values? Let's not forget that Stalin did pursue a number of progressive policies as well. Kemalism wasn't quite that bad, but it is very similar ideologically to Fascism. Ataturk was also Turkey's dictator for life up until 1938.
Waitaminut! This is too good to be true! At the same time some are claiming in another thread that I hate Jews I'm being accused of being part of a Jewish posse! Yesssssss!!!!! :lamo
Genocide is when a group or government seeks to wipe out an ethnic, national, and/or racial population in the country. Greece is not guilty of this, but Turkey is including under Ataturk.
While I would like to know why you think that he was all the same suggesting Israel was complicit.
I think the general inflection point is around 1997. That is when the rapprochement began.
The point is, the relationship had already begun improving and getting closer before the AKP came to power.
The AKP has always supported joining the EU. I'm not sure what you're talking about it. As for weakening the secular grip, most of us outside observers would see that as protecting religious freedom and improving democratic standards.
I am sorry, but all evidence points to the contrary. I have read several comments and it seems the concern of the CHP is not ties with Iran, but rather the concern that Erdogan is isolating Turkey from the West.
The hell they have. They have consistently abused human rights and the right to free speech when they've been in power.
You're arguing the notion of militant democracy, but that is a fool's argument. The end result is always a less democratic system and abuse of human rights. Throughout history this practice has ultimately resulted in the very type of government it has sought to prevent.
The CHP's hawkish foreign policy remains in tact. In a sense, I actually think Turkey's swing towards Russia and Iran could have positive effects like recognition of the Armenian genocide, though it will likely mean more radical approaches to the Kurds.
CHP disturbed by worsened Turk-Israeli ties
Another criticism posed by Kılıçdaroğlu to the government during the luncheon was the downturn in Turkish-Israeli relations, escalated by the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla last month.
“He did not like some of the messages from the government regarding Israel,” said diplomatic sources. The CHP leader said he opposed the Israeli blockade of Gaza as an “unjust policy” as well as the “excessive force” used by Israel. But he stressed that his party was disturbed by the worsened Turkish-Israeli relations after the flotilla crisis and described the government’s Israel policy as “unfortunate,” according to the sources. He accused the AKP of intervening in the politics of other countries.
CHP leader uncomfortable with shift of axis debates
Kılıçdaroğlu also expressed discomfort with debates over a shift of axis in foreign policy, repeating his party wants Turkey to enter the EU. He said his party understands joining the EU is not an easy process for Turkey but asked the ambassadors not to distance themselves from Turkey.
One of the EU diplomats who attended the luncheon expressed content about the “interactive discussion” with the CHP leader. “I was quite impressed. He was very studious, very clear and very positive,” said the diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity.
It isn't even a matter of a person pushing them in that direction, but just a natural gepolitical shift. In the region ties with Iran, Syria, and Russia are only natural. In some part resistance to bringig Turkey into the EU is also aiding this shift and our invasion of Iraq certainly didn't help, then you have Israel's policies. Also one critical shift that is defining is that the secular military establishment is looking for ties with Russia and Iran. Recent cooperation with Iran against Kurdish groups is only going to make that relationship tighter. We've already seen the more radical element of this in Ergenekon, which despite speculation by conspiracy theorists is aligned with Russia and has a Eurasianist stance.
Ataturk established an authoriatrian rule with the aim of stopping religious political opponents who wanted to rip the country open into an Islamic republic. The point of his leadership was to create a safe transition to a parliamentary Democracy, hence why in the last decade of his life, once he had finished that work, he established the CHP and assumed the role of the first Prime minister of Turkey, at which point the transition to secular democracy has been complete.
Kemalism is the idea that a country is a unified body with a secular stance on domestic and foreign issues. It is against dynastic and one party rule, and your comparisons to fascism is just dishonest BS.
Then you need to make up your mind.
The Greeks invaded much of Turkey. The war of independance got Turkey back. What genocide? Where has this come from? What historical bases do you have for this claim? This was a war with the odds tipped against the Greeks. We handed there arses to them. Are you for real?
How? What brings you to this conclusion? I was under the impression the CHP had expelled an Iranian diplomat for anti-semetic remarks, but clearly your sources are flawed.
Actually, just you, as an outside observer. If you believe weakening secularism in state politics and 'protecting religious freedom' only for ONE religion in paticular while ignoring the Christians and Alveli's then you have your facts muddled up. And in regards to Democratic standards, what exactly has he done to improve these, again? Please remind me.
What does this have to do with what i just said?
Wrong. Turkey under the AKP has become the 2nd biggest violator of human rights in the ECHR, and freedom of media has declined the most under the AKP, whereas under the CHP it saw increases- and we where not even close to the 2nd biggest violator in the ECHR.
According to statistics from the Foreign Ministry, Turkey was sentenced to 33 million euros in 567 different cases between 1990 -- when Turkey allowed individual applications to the European court -- and 2006. A majority of these cases are related to events that took place in southeastern Anatolia when it was declared that the region was in a state of emergency. This label was officially applied to the Southeast between July 1987 and November 2002 due to terrorist activities perpetrated by the outlawed Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK).
Turkey, which accounts for 9.5 percent of the cases at the European court, has been fined many times due to the violations of human rights that took place in the Southeast at that time, where JİTEM -- a secret and illicit military intelligence agency -- was active. JİTEM has now come up again on Turkey's agenda after retired Col. Arif Doğan was detained in the investigation into Ergenekon, a criminal network suspected of plotting a coup against the government.
Not neccessarily. After the coup, Turkey today is far more democratic and free then it was, say, under Suleyman Demirel.
The CHP's foreign policy is to promote western ties. Whats so hawkish about it?
I dont see a 21st century CHP wanting to embrace Iran. I also would like to make it clear that Iran and Turkey have always been regional power contenders, especially under the CHP. In fact, this large "shift of axis" "in favour" of Iran if you will happened under AKP. Not MHP, not CHP, but AKP. There is a very good reason for that too.
A natural geopolitical shift? If it was natural it wouldn't have taken 100 years.
And without a measure of gaurentee from the West to protect our own economic interests in light of a regional economic power in our sphere of influence going down, nobody is likely to get much out of Turkey for the long term.
"Because i was under the impression he gave us a secular democracy and a nation which at the time was the European leader of womens rights." How did they go from that to government sponsored prison brothels were women performed acts of prostitution to pay off the mans debts while the more valuable man stayed free and worked?
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