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Some women at school today…

SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
Madam, I am sorry but you nor anyone in your denomination are Christians...
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I disagree.

As I have posted earlier in this thread...

Being Pro-choice is firmly grounded in the Bible.
Who is pro-choice and religious?

Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate.


Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law. They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins.

The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.]

Religions have many different--and changing--tenets about abortion. Some oppose abortion in all cases because they believe human life begins when an egg and sperm meet. They hold this belief even though medical science defines pregnancy as beginning with the implantation of the fertilized egg. Others believe abortion must be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Some believe abortion is required in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's life is in danger.

Many religions believe the decision must be the woman's because she is the person most affected.
Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus.

Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's will.
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Read more:


The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion - Beliefnet.com
 
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SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
Madam, I am sorry but you nor anyone in your denomination are Christians , ....
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Actually there are over 40 denominations ( including main line Protestant Christian faiths and Jewish faiths ) and other religious groups who are members of the RCRC and support reproductive choice as part of our religious liberty.

RELIGIOUS LIBERTY

The freedom of religion is indeed our first freedom and a universally treasured American value dating back to the founding of our nation. As a diverse coalition of religious denominations and religiously-affiliated organizations, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice has an intimate understanding of the important role faith plays in one’s personal and public life. For many people of faith, our world view is informed by our religious values and upbringing. Naturally, many of us put our faith into action to advance our own understanding of mutual uplifting and common good. RCRC certainly relies on the religious values of our member organizations to advance health, dignity and justice for women. However, the First Amendment makes clear that public policy is not to be based on faith alone – in a religiously diverse, pluralistic society, favoring any one religious worldview is wrong and inherently biased. Good policy is policy that allows for all people – regardless of their religious identity – to follow their own faith and conscience when directing the course of their life.

When it comes to matters of reproductive health, RCRC believes that real religious liberty protects the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family, and her own faith. Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual.
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Read more:

Religious Liberty | Religious Coalition For Reproductive Choice
 
RamFel said:
I don't think I am misrepresenting anything. The translation may be accurate but that doesn't mean squat because even if you're right about what the Bible truly means, it doesn't mean that one has the right to kill their unborn children, or have homosexual sex. Homosexual sex is really dirty and risky sexual behavior. Killing a fetus, even if proven to be quick and painless to the child, it's still wrong. I cannot imagine people really thinking this way! Because I just know it's all made up! That's because the left seems to operate this way! Their stories are just too fantastic to be believed. Leave it to the left. But oh...the left is always right ... right! The left just love to investigate and find stuff that agrees with them, but if they can't anything.., no problem. We'll just modify this sentence here, and get rid of that sentence there and rewrite this here, just like the gays did with the bible. I have always wondered how odd it was that everything that's investigated by the left always proves you and your side right.

That's why the left and the right can never have a middle ground. NEVER! Because the left will NOT give an inch. One time, I brought up the fact that gay sex was unnatural. I said that it couldn't be natural because the whole purpose of sex was so that a couple could make babies. Not for fun, not for bonding (although those things happen), but for procreation. I could not win against the left (but I did) because everybody on the left responded that I was a liar, wrong, didn't know what I was talking about and so on. But when I asked for evidence, I couldn't get a clear answer. Nobody had a valid response.

And the reason that I was so strongly opposed is because it proves that homosexuality is wrong. And it's the same thing with abortion. The left wants abortion and when we prove to them that it's wrong, they fight tooth and claw to prove me that I'm the one who's wrong because it's important to them to keep abortion at all costs because women need it. In their minds they simply must defend aborton at all and any cost.

And when I try to prove them wrong, I get hit with links to evidence, and stories about parasitic fetuses, stories of how fetuses don't feel anything, don't think, don't know anything, or stories and then doubtful scientific evidence proving that at very early impregnation (4 or 6 weeks) the life within her is not a real baby, but a zygote. A meaningless mass of tissue.

But it's all right because I can rest assured one thing. I am very confident that the left will go down because they are just hanging on to their lies by the very thinnest of threads.
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How do you know that the only purpose of sex is reproduction?

I have read many posts by people who think like you who repeatedly refer to "reproduction organs." However, medical research has shown that the removal of a woman's so-called "reproductive organs" can deleteriously affect many aspects of her bodily well-being because those organs also serve purposes of individual health which are unrelated to sexual reproduction.

One can certainly expect that the same thing is true for men's "reproduction organs" simply because the penis serves, at least, an elimination function as well as a sexual one.

So I don't think you do know that the purpose of sex is reproduction. I think you're talking through your hat.
 
SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
Madam, I am sorry but you nor anyone in your denomination are Christians , just because someone waters down the meaning of murder, makes it no less murder, calling it choice makes it no less murder except by human standards, my God has higher standards.
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I'm pretty sure that you aren't Jesus Christ or God, and I'm very sure that neither the OT or the Gospels attributes to God or Jesus Christ any statement that equates an embryo or fetus with a born person.

So there is no point in your saying this stuff. Just because someone exaggerates the meaning of causing a miscarriage by claiming it is murder doesn't make it murder, and calling all induced abortion murder doesn't make it murder by God's standards.

You are free to worship your own God in the US only because others are free to worship their God, too. You don't get to define God in the US, just as you don't get to define murder here.

And I'm pretty sure that, according to the Bible, only God and Christ can decide which of the many people who call themselves Christians actually are Christians. So unless you wish to claim that you yourself are God and Christ, you can't make that call.
 
RamFel said:
I don't think I am misrepresenting anything. The translation may be accurate but that doesn't mean squat because even if you're right about what the Bible truly means, it doesn't mean that one has the right to kill their unborn children, or have homosexual sex. Homosexual sex is really dirty and risky sexual behavior. Killing a fetus, even if proven to be quick and painless to the child, it's still wrong. I cannot imagine people really thinking this way! Because I just know it's all made up! That's because the left seems to operate this way! Their stories are just too fantastic to be believed. Leave it to the left. But oh...the left is always right ... right! The left just love to investigate and find stuff that agrees with them, but if they can't anything.., no problem. We'll just modify this sentence here, and get rid of that sentence there and rewrite this here, just like the gays did with the bible. I have always wondered how odd it was that everything that's investigated by the left always proves you and your side right.

That's why the left and the right can never have a middle ground. NEVER! Because the left will NOT give an inch. One time, I brought up the fact that gay sex was unnatural. I said that it couldn't be natural because the whole purpose of sex was so that a couple could make babies. Not for fun, not for bonding (although those things happen), but for procreation. I could not win against the left (but I did) because everybody on the left responded that I was a liar, wrong, didn't know what I was talking about and so on. But when I asked for evidence, I couldn't get a clear answer. Nobody had a valid response.

And the reason that I was so strongly opposed is because it proves that homosexuality is wrong. And it's the same thing with abortion. The left wants abortion and when we prove to them that it's wrong, they fight tooth and claw to prove me that I'm the one who's wrong because it's important to them to keep abortion at all costs because women need it. In their minds they simply must defend aborton at all and any cost.

And when I try to prove them wrong, I get hit with links to evidence, and stories about parasitic fetuses, stories of how fetuses don't feel anything, don't think, don't know anything, or stories and then doubtful scientific evidence proving that at very early impregnation (4 or 6 weeks) the life within her is not a real baby, but a zygote. A meaningless mass of tissue.

But it's all right because I can rest assured one thing. I am very confident that the left will go down because they are just hanging on to their lies by the very thinnest of threads.
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Yet, you are the one invoking what God said or did not say, and what God's word is. If what Christian's claim is the 'word of God' does not matter (even though they terrible mangle it, disagree about what it means among themselves' etc etc etc, you have show WHY you think something is what God wants,
or admit, it's just your own opinion, and that you don't speak for God.

And, since you don't speak for God, you can't tell other people at a fetus is a child, you can't get to tell people that 'homosexuality is wrong', except in your own opinion.

You project your own opinion on what God wants. That is hypocritical.

If you think abortion is wrong, don't have one. Since other people don't think so, compromise, and help come up with a productive solution to reduce 'abortion on demand' without restricting other people's rights.

If you think homosexuality is wrong, make sure you don't have gay sex,and don't marry another man. Funny thing though, gay people are much much less likely to get an abortion than heterosexuals, if they don't get raped.

As far as 'lies'.. as far as I can see, it is the anti-abortion people that are lying... they have been caught with their pants down so to speak.
 
~SAL said:
I'm pretty certain, that if god is all about love and non-judgement there are quite a few self righteous Christians that are going to get a huge shock.

Be careful how you judge for so shall you be judged. Which by the way has been made perfectly clear is not the job of any human not the lease of which is because we do not have the capacity to understand all that will be involved.
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Jesus was not shy about calling out evil where it needed to be called out; nor about calling upon the wicked to repent; and neither should we be.


~SAL said:
concentrate on love and helping babies already on the planet and I'm equally certain god will smile
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That has to include those still in the womb, or else you are a liar and a hypocrite for making such a statement.

The murder of innocents is the greatest evil of which most of us are capable. God will never smile on that.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Jesus was not shy about calling out evil where it needed to be called out; nor about calling upon the wicked to repent;
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he wasn't, but then he was on a different plain than humans are...thus my point
and neither should we be.
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he was very specific about those pitching stones though wasn't he
That has to include those still in the womb, or else you are a liar and a hypocrite for making such a statement.
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I love hearing so called professing Christians such as yourself spew this filth. Just puts such a big divide between true Christians and well....others coming from where ever you are coming from

The murder of innocents is the greatest evil of which most of us are capable. God will never smile on that.
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actually you might want to think on that one really, really hard because what you are labeling as the greatest evil can still be forgiven...you might want to think about what will not be forgiven...according to your faith that is...and worry about that instead of that which you can not change.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Someone who defends the slaughter of innocent children is in no position to accuse those who oppose this horrendous evil of “spewing filth”.
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Luckily, there are no innocent children being slaughtered. So she can accuse you of spewing filth just fine.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
There is no number of times that you can repeat this lie, that will endow it with any vestige of truth.
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LOL

There's no number of times you can deny it that will make it unfactual.
 
choiceone said:
I'm pretty sure that you aren't Jesus Christ or God, and I'm very sure that neither the OT or the Gospels attributes to God or Jesus Christ any statement that equates an embryo or fetus with a born person.

So there is no point in your saying this stuff. Just because someone exaggerates the meaning of causing a miscarriage by claiming it is murder doesn't make it murder, and calling all induced abortion murder doesn't make it murder by God's standards.

You are free to worship your own God in the US only because others are free to worship their God, too. You don't get to define God in the US, just as you don't get to define murder here.

And I'm pretty sure that, according to the Bible, only God and Christ can decide which of the many people who call themselves Christians actually are Christians. So unless you wish to claim that you yourself are God and Christ, you can't make that call.
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You will know them by their fruit!
 
I like watermelon.
 
SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
So you are saying that yours is the only opinion that can be correct?, how very liberal of you, when God Judges, and make no mistake he will, I pray you have changed your mind!
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SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
I get it you are for infanticide, have all the sex you want, just be ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. That is the biggest problem in America right now, no one thinks there are ever permanent repercussions for their actions, someone, usually the Government, should have to take care of the problem
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(All emphasis is mine)

You should take a look at your own responses....

God is the one judging. We are all held accountable... obviously in this life on earth, and whatever may/may not follow in the hereafter.

Regardless, you definitely are not the "someone" to take care of the rest of us. As you've already stated... God judges.

In other words, it's none of your !@#$ business. Follow your own advice.
 
RamFel said:
Why do I have to "deal with it?"
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That's the point. YOU don't deal with anything.
What other consenting adults do/don't do in their own private bedrooms or decisions made with their own doctors doesn't affect you.at.all.


You deal with it!
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If you don't have to deal with my private issues, why must I deal with yours?
 
SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
How about we just use the Bible to read!
Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?
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In your link God is speaking to one specific person ( Jeremiah )...



In Jeremiah 20:14-17 Jeremiah says:

"Cursed be the day on which I was born! The day when my mother bore me, let it not be blessed! Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, 'A son is born to you', making him very glad. Let that man be like the cities which the Lord overthrew without pity; let him hear a cry in the morning and an alarm at noon, because he did not kill me in the womb; so my mother would have been my grave, and her womb for ever great."

In verse 18, he concludes with the anguished cry:

"Why did I come forth from the womb to see toil and sorrow, and spend my days in shame?"
--------------

As I pointed out before abortion is not mentioned in the Bible and the Bible does not deal with the question of when life begins.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.
The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life.
...

Many religions believe the decision must be the woman's because she is the person most affected.
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The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion - Beliefnet.com
Top Religious News From Around the World - Beliefnet News
 
RAMOSS said:
I see that the sight 'Got questions' is doing the 'lets' take the quote out of context' business. That seems to be a common failing of fundamentalist Christians. They do theology by sound bits, but that is not sound theology.
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God, faith, and religion are profound concepts that are experienced/interpreted differently from person to person.

You are right, it not only is unsound theology it is micromanaging religion, faith, and God.

Soundbites = micromanagement.
 
choiceone said:
How do you know that the only purpose of sex is reproduction?

I have read many posts by people who think like you who repeatedly refer to "reproduction organs." However, medical research has shown that the removal of a woman's so-called "reproductive organs" can deleteriously affect many aspects of her bodily well-being because those organs also serve purposes of individual health which are unrelated to sexual reproduction.

One can certainly expect that the same thing is true for men's "reproduction organs" simply because the penis serves, at least, an elimination function as well as a sexual one.

So I don't think you do know that the purpose of sex is reproduction. I think you're talking through your hat.
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ChoiceOne, I am just really happy with the response I got from you. It was everything I expected from you, and more. It’s the gift that I hope keeps giving. Because in one fell swoop you have confirmed that the leftists, at least here on this board, either have no idea of what they’re talking about, or really believe some of the words that are coming out of their mouths. Are you truly serious? How on earth can a grown adult not know what the purpose of having sex is? Why do you think we do it? For some naïve notion that it’s a gift from the gods to be enjoyed? To bring people together, and bond in some way?

I realize that sex is fun. I have never had gay sex, but it has attracted so many men to the gay ranks, and your numbers keep growing. So I am sure that in some twisted way it is fun. But since you can’t reproduce, it is not natural. I know what you’re probably thinking. Boy am I ever going to give this RamFel character a swift kick in his ass for saying these things but it’s true.

This is the reason why I don’t believe leftists when they tell me something. Because this is an obvious lie. I don’t even have to know what’s being said among the chatter going on in the social networks right now, to know that most of the things you claim to believe are just stories.

Do you know why I think you say that gay sex is natural? Go ahead and take a guess…No not because it’s true. It’s because it is a lie, and you, being a leftist, want to support the gay movement in this country, and you want to support and help the SSM movement.

And abortion falls under this category.

P.S. Thank you so much for the assistance in our fight against runaway liberalism.

P.P.S. Oh, and I never said during this recent debate, anything about men's or woman's genitalia, and the other uses for them. Thank God gave us a way to pee and poo, and pass gas. But that's not what I am talking about. I mean a guy getting down and dirty with another guy.
 
RamFel said:
ChoiceOne, I am just really happy with the response I got from you. It was everything I expected from you, and more. It’s the gift that I hope keeps giving. Because in one fell swoop you have confirmed that the leftists, at least here on this board, either have no idea of what they’re talking about, or really believe some of the words that are coming out of their mouths. Are you truly serious? How on earth can a grown adult not know what the purpose of having sex is? Why do you think we do it? For some naïve notion that it’s a gift from the gods to be enjoyed? To bring people together, and bond in some way?

I realize that sex is fun. I have never had gay sex, but it has attracted so many men to the gay ranks, and your numbers keep growing. So I am sure that in some twisted way it is fun. But since you can’t reproduce, it is not natural. I know what you’re probably thinking. Boy am I ever going to give this RamFel character a swift kick in his ass for saying these things but it’s true.

This is the reason why I don’t believe leftists when they tell me something. Because this is an obvious lie. I don’t even have to know what’s being said among the chatter going on in the social networks right now, to know that most of the things you claim to believe are just stories.

Do you know why I think you say that gay sex is natural? Go ahead and take a guess…No not because it’s true. It’s because it is a lie, and you, being a leftist, want to support the gay movement in this country, and you want to support and help the SSM movement.

And abortion falls under this category.

P.S. Thank you so much for the assistance in our fight against runaway liberalism.

P.P.S. Oh, and I never said during this recent debate, anything about men's or woman's genitalia, and the other uses for them. Thank God gave us a way to pee and poo, and pass gas. But that's not what I am talking about. I mean a guy getting down and dirty with another guy.
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Then you will be equally happy to learn that as a "leftist/liberal" I am very happy with your response to Choiceone's correct post about what sex is or is not about.

Your response speaks volumes IMHO, you take a correct and biologically sound story from Choiceone and you pervert and turn facts around to create your own fiction.

Sex is fun, but gay sex is not attracting "men" to gay sex. Gay men are gay because they love men and because they love having sex with the person/gender they love. Gay sex did not attract them, they are gay and were attracted to men long before they had "gay sex". You pervert the fact that people are gay by claiming that men are attracted to the gay side by gay sex :lamo. Sorry but we are not living in the star wars universe where "the dark side" (read gay sex in the conservative universe) preys on normal jedi's to turn them into sith lords (read gay men).

For gay men gay sex is natural. For men and women who are beyond reproductive age sex is natural.

You are trying to turn the natural behavior of sex (which is natural for many many reasons) into something "biblical" in a thing that is only natural when it is done to attempt to procreate and have children.

People have stopped living in the moral and mental dark ages (in civilized Western countries that is) and do not ban (or make hard to obtain) products meant to let people have sex without being able to get pregnant/procreate. You are again trying to turn back the clock (just like in the abortion issue) to the time when condoms where a no-no. My grandmother 50 years ago had to sell condoms in the evening. She worked for the society for the sexual reform way before I was even born. In the time when the pastor would visit the house of people who had not been pregnant for some time. Or he visited newly weds after a year or so after marrying them to ask why they did not have a child yet. The people in that day and age had to sneak around in the night to get condoms and you have the same archaic views that the church had in those days and has to a large extend these days.

Sex is natural, sex is there for a multitude of reasons. You don't believe it because you only look into that made up book of your of morals from 4000 years ago (or more) and trying to explain it to today. Just because the people who wrote the bible where totally and utterly ignorant does not mean we have to repeat their boneheaded moronic opinions and behaviors.

So here is the low down, the notion that sex is only needed or good for reproduction is stupid and not a little bit stupid. It is hugely beneficial for a persons health.

It helps your immune system out, it boost the libido, it improves the a woman's bladder control, it lowers blood pressure, it counts as exercise, it lowers the risk of heart attacks, it lessens pain, it may make prostate cancer less likely, it improves sleep and it eases stress and those are only some of the health benefits.

The notion that sex is only for reproduction or else it is no longer natural is ridiculous and ludicrous. Stop trying to live in the past and telling lies and untruths based on people who lived in a time where they were scientific morons and where mental and physical health were "alien" notions. If you want to live in the past be my guest, but do not expect others to fall for that hogwash.
 
SENSIBLE PATRIO said:
God will control your eternal destiny, so you may want to rethink the Baby killing thing!
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Oh PLEASE, that is BELIEF, not fact. The ONLY person who makes all my sexual and reproductive decisions, including the choice NOT to reproduce, is ME. Deal with it.
 
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