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Socialism never?

JustHanging

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It's the dogma and doctrine of sniveling cowards and manipulators of weak-willed women...
Well that's the dogma and doctrine of Trump. So you're arguing that this is the dogma and doctrine of Trump's base. Based on his campaign strategy, Trump agrees with you.


Trump's Midterm Closing Argument: Pure Racial Fear


Clearly Trump believes his base is largely composed of racist (sniveling) cowards. The question is, does Trump know his base?
 

ChezC3

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Greenbeard

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When the government controls the money that pays an industry, they control the industry.
Unfortunately that rhetorical gunpowder was all used up by the right when the government didn't pay the industry but simply provided tax credits for premiums in a private multi-payer system. That, we were told, was government control of the industry and had to be sabotaged at all costs. Opening the door to elimination of the private multi-payer system. Well, here we go.
 

bongsaway

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Umm, socialism does work when applied correctly. Tell me, why are the scandinavian countries so happy and yet they are democratic socialist countries and damn cold to boot. You folks who try to convince everyone socialism is bad always use the worst examples you can find and never mention the best.
 

aociswundumho

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Tell me, why are the scandinavian countries so happy and yet they are democratic socialist countries.
Um, because they're not socialist. They are capitalist and have market economies. Like most ignorant progressives, you are confusing the welfare state with socialism.
 

OlNate

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Comment:
Socialism is inherently evil because it functions on the basis of the concentration of political/secular power into the hands of a few. It can be achieved via democratic process, but it is at its foundations non-democratic. ANY form of government can become tyrannical, but Socialism PLANS to be so-for the best of reasons, of course. And even democracy is no guarantee to prevent tyranny. After all, a 51% voting majority can be just as tyrannical to the other 49% as a tiny governing elite.
Socialism attempts to eliminate the greediness of man and ends up simply concentrating it into the hands of a select few.
Unfortunately, the USA has adopted bits and pieces of Socialism thanks to Progressive Marxist Socialist/DSA Democrats. Slowly enough that we are not called Socialist. One day we wake up and realize the costume party is over and we are 50% Socialist.
"Socialism has failed everywhere and every time it’s been tried. Mice die in mouse traps because they don't understand why the cheese is free".

Re: the bolded...what's the difference between that and capitalism, exactly? How much actual power do you have now?
 

Bullseye

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It depends. Are we talking of actual socialism, where the state usurps means of production? Then yes, it is bad. Are we talking about social programs, things like Universal Healthcare and support programs like Welfare? Then that's not actually socialism, and not necessarily bad.

I think people scream "socialism socialism socialism" but have very little understanding as to what socialism actually is.
Very good points. A lot of hard core Socialists try to roll things we do a a society into the "Socialim" mantra. They're not. Socialism is an ideology of central control and planning. It focuses on the means of production and distribution - either through direct control or legislative fiat.

Anyone who things a small group of elected and appointed officials can do a better job of managing the intricacies of our economy better the the millions of business owners, consumers, bankers, investers, consumers and entrepreneurs needs to think again.

My other worry is if enough socialists get into government the Electoral Colleges goes away and the nation because slaves to the whims of a few big states.
 

Gamewell45

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Hands down, one of the most uneducated ignorant posts I have ever read.

Just pure unsubstantiated propaganda...
It's typical Cal Thomas hysterics. I stopped taking him seriously since the mid 1970's.
 

Moot

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Socialism is public ownership/control of the means of production. Politicians are attracted to it because it drastically increase the size and scope of the state, and hence increases their power over society. It's also easy to sell the idea to the populace -- simply demonize capitalists, which are an easy target to the ignorant masses.
Politicians still have to answer to their constituents regardless if the hospitals and utilities are state owned. Private companies that have a monopoly don't have to answer to anyone except their share holders. Personally, I prefer a mixed economy where the state fills the void that private companies either can't or won't do.


What gets in their way is the historical track record of socialism. At its absolute best you low quality goods and services that you often have to stand in line to get. Goods and services produced by the state tend to be crap - public housing projects, public schools, the VA hospital system for just three US examples. They also tend to be extremely expensive for the taxpayer, and many of the costs can and will be hidden. At its worst, well, you get a mountain of corpses and rivers of blood.
The track record of Sweden, Norway and Denmark is pretty good. It's been my experience that their products are high quality. And I think you'd be hard pressed to find mountains of corpses and rivers of blood in those countries.


One problem is even for well meaning bureaucrats, the incentives are all backwards. For example, a government-run school has no incentive to please parents with well-educated children, because everyone in a socialist system gets paid regardless of how poorly they perform. Under capitalism you can take your business and your money to a competitor. Under socialism, you pay no matter what, because the system is funded via taxation. What's even worse is that poorly performing socialist institutions are typically rewarded with even bigger budgets.
Nearly every public school has a PTA. If parents don't want to get involved that's not the fault of the school. We need public schools in order to have a public that can read, write and do math. Without that basic education, no one could get a job and employers would have to move else where to find an educated work base.

I must say, your idea of socialism is not very well thought out.
 

Beowulf

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Socialism never?​
Many young people believe socialism should be implemented in America​



Socialism never? - Washington Times
Aug 14, 2019 ~ By Cal Thomas
President Trump has repeatedly promised “America will never be a socialist country.” Since Franklin Roosevelt began expanding government in the 1930s, the United States has increasingly adopted big-state policies associated with socialism. We may not be at the stage Bernie Sanders would advocate, but more millennials appear to favor a system under which they have never lived. Free stuff is appealing until one realizes its costs. In an attempt to reach Generation Z — those in their teens and 20s — a new organization is starting this month to combat socialism’s appeal. It’s called Young Americans Against Socialism (yaas.org), according to its site, a nonpartisan nonprofit “dedicated to exposing socialism’s failures to young Americans by creating viral educational videos for social media.” Its founder, Morgan Zegers, worries that “more than half of young people believe socialism should be implemented in America.” The reason, she says, is because many of them know little about it. Her campaign will be largely on social media where she notes young people spend hours every day.
Socialism has long needed pushback in America from those opposed to it. President Trump has begun pointing out how harmful it is elsewhere. Ms. Zegers hopes to target young Americans with testimonies from people who have lived under the reality of socialism.


Comment:
Socialism is inherently evil because it functions on the basis of the concentration of political/secular power into the hands of a few. It can be achieved via democratic process, but it is at its foundations non-democratic. ANY form of government can become tyrannical, but Socialism PLANS to be so-for the best of reasons, of course. And even democracy is no guarantee to prevent tyranny. After all, a 51% voting majority can be just as tyrannical to the other 49% as a tiny governing elite.
Socialism attempts to eliminate the greediness of man and ends up simply concentrating it into the hands of a select few.
Unfortunately, the USA has adopted bits and pieces of Socialism thanks to Progressive Marxist Socialist/DSA Democrats. Slowly enough that we are not called Socialist. One day we wake up and realize the costume party is over and we are 50% Socialist.
"Socialism has failed everywhere and every time it’s been tried. Mice die in mouse traps because they don't understand why the cheese is free".
Voluntary socialism, such as a family, I have no problem with. I have problems with the sort of socialism that requires truncheons and machine guns. I don't think any person has the legitimate right to truncheon or machine gun his innocent neighbor.
 

Ikari

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Very good points. A lot of hard core Socialists try to roll things we do a a society into the "Socialim" mantra. They're not. Socialism is an ideology of central control and planning. It focuses on the means of production and distribution - either through direct control or legislative fiat.

Anyone who things a small group of elected and appointed officials can do a better job of managing the intricacies of our economy better the the millions of business owners, consumers, bankers, investers, consumers and entrepreneurs needs to think again.

My other worry is if enough socialists get into government the Electoral Colleges goes away and the nation because slaves to the whims of a few big states.
Welllll....we had a good run.

I mean, in terms of "central control and planning" if you think our current Corporate Capitalist oligarchy is somehow remarkably different, you're fooling yourself.

I ain't worried about things like Universal Healthcare, that **** ain't socialism. But we have enough control and handouts as is, sponsored by D and R alike, to control much of the system. Those crying about socialism are ignorant chumps unable to see the world we already live in.
 

Bullseye

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Welllll....we had a good run.

I mean, in terms of "central control and planning" if you think our current Corporate Capitalist oligarchy is somehow remarkably different, you're fooling yourself.

I ain't worried about things like Universal Healthcare, that **** ain't socialism. But we have enough control and handouts as is, sponsored by D and R alike, to control much of the system. Those crying about socialism are ignorant chumps unable to see the world we already live in.
"Current corporate Capitalism oligrachy " WTF is that? Corporations COMPETE with each other. There is no vast corporate conspiracy.
 

bongsaway

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Um, because they're not socialist. They are capitalist and have market economies. Like most ignorant progressives, you are confusing the welfare state with socialism.
They are democratic socialists. Big difference between that and straight up socialism which no democrat is advocating even though that's what the right tells each other. Do you folks on the right have a problem writing something without calling people names because they don't agree with your thinking?
 

aociswundumho

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They are democratic socialists.
Bernie Sanders, like you, once publicly claimed Denmark was socialist. Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen responded:


"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.
 

bongsaway

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Bernie Sanders, like you, once publicly claimed Denmark was socialist. Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen responded:
The economy of Denmark has grown to become a modern day market economy that possesses an advanced industrial sector alongside its traditional and now high-tech agricultural sector. The economy of Denmark is known for its government welfare measures, an equal distribution of income and a high standard of living.Apr 25, 2017

Known for its government welfare measures and an EQUAL distribution of income. Unlike capitalist america where one person grabs as much as they can because their workers are all meaningless and can be replaced for cheaper labor. So call it what you like, it's not like american capitalism.
 

SDET

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If you want to know what living under socialism is like, visit a Cuban city of your choice and ask random people when you're sure a chivato (snitch) isn't listening. If someone makes the cut throat gesture, they're tipping you off to shut up because they have spotted a possible snitch.

Of course we have snitches here in the USA too. They are sometimes called virtue signallers and the will organize an Act of Repudiation against you just like Cuba.
 
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Doc91478

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Politicians still have to answer to their constituents regardless if the hospitals and utilities are state owned. Private companies that have a monopoly don't have to answer to anyone except their share holders. Personally, I prefer a mixed economy where the state fills the void that private companies either can't or won't do.




The track record of Sweden, Norway and Denmark is pretty good. It's been my experience that their products are high quality. And I think you'd be hard pressed to find mountains of corpses and rivers of blood in those countries.




Nearly every public school has a PTA. If parents don't want to get involved that's not the fault of the school. We need public schools in order to have a public that can read, write and do math. Without that basic education, no one could get a job and employers would have to move else where to find an educated work base.

I must say, your idea of socialism is not very well thought out.
~~~~~~
Obviously the populations of Denmark, Norway and Sweden don't come close to the US in population. Combined the three countries have slightly more than 21 million as compared to 329,357,987. Whatever works for smaller countries does not mean that applied to the US would be successful.
 

Doc91478

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Voluntary socialism, such as a family, I have no problem with. I have problems with the sort of socialism that requires truncheons and machine guns. I don't think any person has the legitimate right to truncheon or machine gun his innocent neighbor.
~~~~~~~
Wherever Socialism has taken root the first thing they do is disarm the population and then the Socialists apply the truncheons and machine guns. That is a proven fact from the Russian Revolution, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba and what is happening in Venezuela today. Yet, the Progressive Marxist Socialist/DSA Democrats would claim that would never happen here. Cue in the Democrats yelling for gun confiscation.
 

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~~~~~~
Obviously the populations of Denmark, Norway and Sweden don't come close to the US in population. Combined the three countries have slightly more than 21 million as compared to 329,357,987. Whatever works for smaller countries does not mean that applied to the US would be successful.
Those were just a few examples of democratic socialist countries that work. If programs like Social Security and Medicare can succeed in a country our size there's no reason that some of the other ideas in the Nordic model couldn't also.

Nordic model - Wikipedia
 

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Socialism never?​
Many young people believe socialism should be implemented in America​



Socialism never? - Washington Times
Aug 14, 2019 ~ By Cal Thomas
President Trump has repeatedly promised “America will never be a socialist country.” Since Franklin Roosevelt began expanding government in the 1930s, the United States has increasingly adopted big-state policies associated with socialism. We may not be at the stage Bernie Sanders would advocate, but more millennials appear to favor a system under which they have never lived. Free stuff is appealing until one realizes its costs. In an attempt to reach Generation Z — those in their teens and 20s — a new organization is starting this month to combat socialism’s appeal. It’s called Young Americans Against Socialism (yaas.org), according to its site, a nonpartisan nonprofit “dedicated to exposing socialism’s failures to young Americans by creating viral educational videos for social media.” Its founder, Morgan Zegers, worries that “more than half of young people believe socialism should be implemented in America.” The reason, she says, is because many of them know little about it. Her campaign will be largely on social media where she notes young people spend hours every day.
Socialism has long needed pushback in America from those opposed to it. President Trump has begun pointing out how harmful it is elsewhere. Ms. Zegers hopes to target young Americans with testimonies from people who have lived under the reality of socialism.


Comment:
Socialism is inherently evil because it functions on the basis of the concentration of political/secular power into the hands of a few. It can be achieved via democratic process, but it is at its foundations non-democratic. ANY form of government can become tyrannical, but Socialism PLANS to be so-for the best of reasons, of course. And even democracy is no guarantee to prevent tyranny. After all, a 51% voting majority can be just as tyrannical to the other 49% as a tiny governing elite.
Socialism attempts to eliminate the greediness of man and ends up simply concentrating it into the hands of a select few.
Unfortunately, the USA has adopted bits and pieces of Socialism thanks to Progressive Marxist Socialist/DSA Democrats. Slowly enough that we are not called Socialist. One day we wake up and realize the costume party is over and we are 50% Socialist.
"Socialism has failed everywhere and every time it’s been tried. Mice die in mouse traps because they don't understand why the cheese is free".
Doc91478:

Yes. Don't make the fundamental political mistakes that we made in Canada by adopting certain aspects of socialism in seductively mild forms in order to increase our collective qualities of life through the pooling of collective resources. Now we in the north are burdened with publicly managed old-age pensions which are not underfunded by employers, a single payer universal healthcare system which serves and protects all, low drug costs which don't bankrupt the ill or needy, low cost education for our children and young adults, lower per capital public debt and a higher quality of life for most Canadian citizens. It's an f-ing nightmare, I tell you! So don't listen for even a moment to socialism's siren-song or your people will live longer, healthier lives, have less stress, have lower crime and incarceration rates, have a better quality of life for most and just generally go to seed.

Avoid the missteps we in the People's Republic of Canukistan made and continue to crush your own in the free-market societal vice of unconstrained capitalism and corporatism, because that which does not destroy you will make you stronger. Be the societal meat grinder you were meant to be and let the driven, the ruthless, the manic and the psychotic rise to the top of the gory sliurry of pain, broken lives and unrealised dreams in order that these deserving successes are able to rule over you in freedom and liberty. Abjure notions of commonwealth and be the pyramid scheme that conquered a continent and now sets its eyes on the world.

You have it right and we erred in the tragic folly of building a just, caring and humane society. Don't repeat our sins of humanity and compassion! Don't buckle under the yoke of perceived paradise and keep the dream of the charnel-house civilization you seek to perfect alive. Mom and apple pie, all blended together and cooked to perfection.

Cheers.
The oppressed Evilroddy.
 

Doc91478

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Those were just a few examples of democratic socialist countries that work. If programs like Social Security and Medicare can succeed in a country our size there's no reason that some of the other ideas in the Nordic model couldn't also.

Nordic model - Wikipedia
~~~~~~
Funny you didn't include the UK, China, Russia, Cuba and Venezuela all failures in government and healthcare for their populations.
 

Doc91478

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Doc91478:

Yes. Don't make the fundamental political mistakes that we made in Canada by adopting certain aspects of socialism in seductively mild forms in order to increase our collective qualities of life through the pooling of collective resources. Now we in the north are burdened with publicly managed old-age pensions which are not underfunded by employers, a single payer universal healthcare system which serves and protects all, low drug costs which don't bankrupt the ill or needy, low cost education for our children and young adults, lower per capital public debt and a higher quality of life for most Canadian citizens. It's an f-ing nightmare, I tell you! So don't listen for even a moment to socialism's siren-song or your people will live longer, healthier lives, have less stress, have lower crime and incarceration rates, have a better quality of life for most and just generally go to seed.

Avoid the missteps we in the People's Republic of Canukistan made and continue to crush your own in the free-market societal vice of unconstrained capitalism and corporatism, because that which does not destroy you will make you stronger. Be the societal meat grinder you were meant to be and let the driven, the ruthless, the manic and the psychotic rise to the top of the gory sliurry of pain, broken lives and unrealised dreams in order that these deserving successes are able to rule over you in freedom and liberty. Abjure notions of commonwealth and be the pyramid scheme that conquered a continent and now sets its eyes on the world.

You have it right and we erred in the tragic folly of building a just, caring and humane society. Don't repeat our sins of humanity and compassion! Don't buckle under the yoke of perceived paradise and keep the dream of the charnel-house civilization you seek to perfect alive. Mom and apple pie, all blended together and cooked to perfection.

Cheers.
The oppressed Evilroddy.

~~~~~~
Hmmm....., Only if you exclude the more than the estimated 200 million souls extermination by these totalitarian entities....
 
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