Socialism can work

[TNAR]

"A theory or policy of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all. "

As I said, it seemed to me that you were walking this path.

In that case, we are back to the pricing mechanism. There is no substitute for personal valuation and calculation. The collective ownership of the production processes would provide no prices; without prices economic calculation is impossible; without calculation economic activity is impossible.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

And we're back to your "socialism can't work because it isn't capitalism" argument. Funny how you just keep repeating the same circular argument even after it's been pointed out to you...

 

[007]

Name one socialist nation that has been a success.
That did not become totalitarian.
Odd how socialists deny that failed socialist nations were socialist!!!!!!

Socialism dosen't work, never has, never will!!!
It dehumanises humans, that's its problem.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

As I said, it seemed to me that you were walking this path.

That was a basic definition.
If you want a more in depth meaning and explanation I have given some good links to start at/

In that case, we are back to the pricing mechanism. There is no substitute for personal valuation and calculation. The collective ownership of the production processes would provide no prices; without prices economic calculation is impossible; without calculation economic activity is impossible.

Why would it provide no price?
You can still have collective/co-operativve ownership and have a market. Different worker co-op work places will still be able to compete against one another... (Market socialist)

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Name one socialist nation that has been a success.
That did not become totalitarian.
Odd how socialists deny that failed socialist nations were socialist!!!!!!

Socialism dosen't work, never has, never will!!!
It dehumanises humans, that's its problem.

Awhhh this argument again.
Are you done trolling?

 

[Samhain]

Sense we are allowed to own a business co-operativley why am i ranting? Well mainly because i believe that the workplace being owned privately is a sham and is not the rightful economic system. I believe that it holds humanity back and is not right. I believe that accepting a dictatorship at the workplace does not follow the democratic example.

In your example, how is your factory, that's owned by the workers, not privately owned?

The workers as a co-op


The workers would elect a board of directors from among the working members of their business, and this board hires managers.


The workers and the board of directors they elect via negotiations


The workers and the board of directors also decide this via negotiations.

 

[ksu_aviator]

What do you mean "someone controls your life"? Socialism is an economic policy. It means that the workers own the workplace cooperatively. Isnt that freedom? Doesnt that mean that the workers are free in their workplace? They dont accept that dictatorship at work. They accept to control their workplace themselves. That is freedom.

No. I really don't. First, you can't have workers owning a business. We have something similar to that in unions. They show us that unions and the business have diametrically opposed goals. The business needs to keep down costs to remain competitive in the market while the unions want increased wages and benefits. I'm not saying that employees shouldn't negotiate for wages, nor am I saying that a business should pay only minimum wages. But the two entities do have opposing goals. If the employees become the business the business will become schizophrenic. On one hand it will want to sell products in the market while trying to maximize wages. In the end, the higher wages will prevail and the business will price itself out of the market or all of the businesses (in the case of socialism) will inflate prices to the point that the buying power of the high wages is no different than before.

The solution that will always arise is to have price and wage controls (still feel free?). Those price and wage controls must come from some entity, likely the government. Back to my original point, the end result of socialism is that the government controls every aspect of your life by controlling your financial means to be free.

 

[Wake]

Out of curiousity, which socialistic nation, past and present, can be considered a success?

 

[TNAR]

That was a basic definition.

I agree with it; just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Why would it provide no price?

I don't have the time to address this at the moment but will compose an adequate response when able.

 

[o3smog]

socialism can only exist on paper because it hinged on the idea that people will not be greedy and take advantage of others. people will not ever stop their greed therefor socialism is an invalid economic solution capitalism is meant to feed of of a humans desire to acquire riches. the reason it is not currently "working" is because no one these days wants to put in the effort to innovate.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

Out of curiousity, which socialistic nation, past and present, can be considered a success?

Remember, there haven't been any socialist nations. Socialist nations inherently succeed. None have, therefore none have been socialist.

"All Scotsman eat haggis."
"My cousin is a Scotsman, and he doesn't eat haggis."
"Then your cousin is no true Scotsman."

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Remember the last time you responded to anyone that responded to your posts? Yeah, me neither. Why are you posting, again?

 

[Meathead]

I think some people need to read Animal Farm again. The book was written by a disillusioned democratic socialist who had the intellect and courage to recognize the fallacies and the dangers of his beliefs.

 

[Gonzo Rodeo]

If you can't handle it, just say so.

 

[Wake]

Remember the last time you responded to anyone that responded to your posts? Yeah, me neither. Why are you posting, again?

Who is that directed at?

 

[coolwalker]

No that is not the goal of socialism... The goal of socialism is ownership of the workplace by the workers...

You chose an avatar that resembles a terrorist, call yourself a socialist and expect respect. That is as odd as the statement "socialism can work".

 

[Samhain]

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Out of curiousity, which socialistic nation, past and present, can be considered a success?

What countries were socialist Wake?

(Havent you asked this question like 6 times)

 

[TheDemSocialist]

I think some people need to read Animal Farm again. The book was written by a disillusioned democratic socialist who had the intellect and courage to recognize the fallacies and the dangers of his beliefs.

:doh:lamo:doh

Animal Farm was about Stalinism in the USSR. I can tell that book what right over your head.

 

[Wake]

What countries were socialist Wake?

(Havent you asked this question like 6 times)

As in, which nations tried applying socialism, and succeeded?

If you want to be technical and say no socialistic nation ever existed, [even though people like you keep trying to apply socialism], then so be it.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

You chose an avatar that resembles a terrorist,

He was a terrorist?

call yourself a socialist and expect respect. That is as odd as the statement "socialism can work".

Ahhhh your a genius....

 

[TheDemSocialist]

As in, which nations tried applying socialism, and succeeded?

What nations tried to implement worker controlled workplaces?

If you want to be technical and say no socialistic nation ever existed, [even though people like you keep trying to apply socialism], then so be it.

Nationas had socialistic aspects...

 

[Medusa]

Socialism can work?

Of course it can, just requires a touch of totalitarianism !!!!

Turn people into enslaved subjects of a political entity and you have socialism!!

Works well in n Korea!!!

in fact people are like slaves in capitalist world,too,but they are not aware of this fact!

 

[TheDemSocialist]

No. I really don't. First, you can't have workers owning a business.

Why not?

We have something similar to that in unions.

No we dont.... Unions only "look out for the workers". They do not control the workplace.

They show us that unions and the business have diametrically opposed goals.

A privately ran business is soley based on profit. Unions are around to pressure the business to help out their workers.

The business needs to keep down costs to remain competitive in the market while the unions want increased wages and benefits.

That is not true. Many businesses could afford to pay their workers a decent sallary while keeping prices at a respectable side but they simply choose not too.

I'm not saying that employees shouldn't negotiate for wages, nor am I saying that a business should pay only minimum wages. But the two entities do have opposing goals. If the employees become the business the business will become schizophrenic. On one hand it will want to sell products in the market while trying to maximize wages. In the end, the higher wages will prevail and the business will price itself out of the market or all of the businesses (in the case of socialism) will inflate prices to the point that the buying power of the high wages is no different than before.

So your saying if workers own the workplace we would just have inflated prices? Why do you think that?

The solution that will always arise is to have price and wage controls (still feel free?). Those price and wage controls must come from some entity, likely the government. Back to my original point, the end result of socialism is that the government controls every aspect of your life by controlling your financial means to be free.

I dont realize how you came from this: If workers own the workplace they will want amazing salarys. If they have that then prices will become inflated. Then the gov has to step in. So no freedom..

 

[Samhain]

Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist
Sense we are allowed to own a business co-operativley why am i ranting? Well mainly because i believe that the workplace being owned privately is a sham and is not the rightful economic system. I believe that it holds humanity back and is not right. I believe that accepting a dictatorship at the workplace does not follow the democratic example.

In your example, how is your factory, that's owned by the workers, not privately owned?

Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist
The workers as a co-op


The workers would elect a board of directors from among the working members of their business, and this board hires managers.


The workers and the board of directors they elect via negotiations


The workers and the board of directors also decide this via negotiations.