• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

SOCIAL PROGRAMS: Most rapid 5-year expansion since 1960s

Carl said:
Demand and supply is the same thing from a different perspective. Wealth is goods and services. End of story.

The Silence of the Good News - Larry Kudlow

Ok, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean come on, Larry Kudlow??? He was one of the Reagan architects of the Supply Side model. Basically, he has this notion that demand chases supply. Which 99% of economists would disagree with out of common sense alone. You invest where there is consumption. You don't necessarily always consume where there is investment. Another way of putting it is that with consumption, there will always be an incentive for investment. However, the opposite is not always true and that is where the supply side notions completely fall apart. Wealth is goods and services only if there is a demand for those goods and services. Otherwise, they are worthless.

The thing is I don’t think we are that far apart as to our economic notions. I think that one would might think I was some liberal because my nic on here is “SouthernDemocrat”. However, Southern Democrats typically have not been liberals. In terms of economics, I dismiss much of the protectionist liberal notions. However, where we disagree is that I see no empirical evidence either way that points to the notion that all one has to do is cut taxes and the economy and revenue will grow as a result. I am all for cutting spending, but I think it needs to be cut across the board and that includes wasteful defense spending.
 
Carl said:
Well, yes, but I'm not aware that any budget ever submitted resulted in less spending one year than the year before in any program. I'd sure love to see that, but I'm not holding my breath.

Reductions in the rate of growth are better than anything we've seen since Newt and the gang. I'll take it.


sure, its better than nothing, but calling it a spending cut is deceptive.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
However, where we disagree is that I see no empirical evidence either way that points to the notion that all one has to do is cut taxes and the economy and revenue will grow as a result.

John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush. In each case, cuts in taxes grew the economy, broadened the tax base, and resulted in huge increases in federal revenue with lower rates of taxation. I have seen translations of scrolls from the treasurer of Hamurabi in Ancient Sumeria making the same observation.

Try some Von Mises, Adam Smith, etc.
 
Carl said:
John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush. In each case, cuts in taxes grew the economy, broadened the tax base, and resulted in huge increases in federal revenue with lower rates of taxation. I have seen translations of scrolls from the treasurer of Hamurabi in Ancient Sumeria making the same observation.

Try some Von Mises, Adam Smith, etc.

After John F. Kennedy cut taxes, the top rate was still 70%. That is supply side economics? Come on.

After Reagan cut taxes, the economy entered into its deepest recession since the great depression. Only after TEFRA in 1984 did tax revenues start to level out, and that was a tax INCREASE. A massive one at that. Only after the tax increases of 1989 and 1993 did we get a balanced budget again.

I'm sorry, but there is no empirical evidence for your argument.

Now, we do have record revenues now. BUT, where is the empirical evidence to support that the economic growth that is responsible for that revenue caused by the Bush Tax cuts. Most of the Bush tax cuts were back loaded. If you look at the dollar amount introduced into the economy, it’s miniscule as compared to GDP. A more reasonable explanation for the economic growth would be its simply cyclical, and it’s bolstered by what are still very, very, low interest rates. In fact, the low interest rates have effectively introduces exponentially greater economic stimulus than the Bush tax cuts have so far. Hell, the massive increases in government spending has introduced more consumption than the tax cuts have so far.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
After Reagan cut taxes, the economy entered into its deepest recession since the great depression.

Due to a monetary squeeze intended to halt the stagflation of the Carter regime.

The Real Reagan Economic Record

example.gif


Despite the steep recession in 1982--brought on by tight money policies that were instituted to squeeze out the historic inflation level of the late 1970s--by 1983, the Reagan policies of reducing taxes, spending, regulation, and inflation were in place. The result was unprecedented economic growth:

SouthernDemocrat said:
A more reasonable explanation for the economic growth would be its simply cyclical, and it’s bolstered by what are still very, very, low interest rates.

Sorry, my friend, but your sympathies are clear. There is nothing you would ever accept as evidence. Fortunately, the notions you believe constitute mainstream economics are in fact pretty fringe stuff. The record of the Reagan years is testimony to the new (old) paradigm.
 
Last edited:
Carl said:
Due to a monetary squeeze intended to halt the stagflation of the Carter regime.

The Real Reagan Economic Record





Sorry, my friend, but your sympathies are clear. There is nothing you would ever accept as evidence. Fortunately, the notions you believe constitute mainstream economics are in fact pretty fringe stuff. The record of the Reagan years is testimony to the new (old) paradigm.

Wow, a graph. Something tells me that if that graph were extended way back to 1950 all the way to today, that federal revenues would consistently grow regardless of who was in office or whether there was a tax cut or a tax increase. Hence the lack of empirical evidence for Supply Side notions.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Something tells me that if that graph were extended way back to 1950 all the way to today, that federal revenues would consistently grow regardless of who was in office or whether there was a tax cut or a tax increase.

Er, hrrrm.....

Carl said:
Sorry, my friend, but your sympathies are clear. There is nothing you would ever accept as evidence. Fortunately, the notions you believe constitute mainstream economics are in fact pretty fringe stuff. The record of the Reagan years is testimony to the new (old) paradigm.
 
Carl said:
Er, hrrrm.....
Here is the problem with graphs from right wing think tanks that are only meant to bolster preconceived notions.
  • The graph only shows the years 1980 through 1993. For it to be an accurate comparison, it should show the entire post war economic period from 1945 to today.
  • The graph does not show where the increased revenue came from during the 80s. For example, was it primarily from additional revenue resulting for FICA taxes? Was it due to population growth? What is the causative factor?
  • The graph makes no adjustments for inflation.
  • The graph excludes domestic spending growth in Social Security, Medicare, and debt service (interest). How can you have an accurate measure of federal outlays compared to federal revenues if you include revenues associated with Social Security and Medicare taxes, yet you exclude the outlays associated with those programs? Moreover, how can it be an accurate measure of federal outlays compared to federal revenues if the graph excludes the cost of servicing debt which is one of the largest single federal outlays?
  • The graph omits any comparisons between federal revenues as a percentage of GDP and federal outlays as a percentage of GDP.
A much better table is located here, at the non-partisan Tax Policy Center:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/Tfdb/TFTemplate.cfm?DocID=200&Topic2id=20&Topic3id=23

You will note from the table that federal revenues increased 21% (adjusted for inflation) from 1980 to 1989 and federal revenues increased 31% (adjusted for inflation) from 1990 to 1999 (following two tax increases in 1989 and 1993).

You will also note that Federal Outlays as a percentage of GDP was 21.7% in 1980 and 21.2% in 1989. Conversely, Federal Outlays as a percentage of GDP was 21.8% in 1990 and 18.6% in 1999.

So, where is the empirical data that shows that supply side notions are valid economic science? There is none. It’s a fringe notion and that is why you see no supply side arguments at any non-partisan economic think tank. Supply Side economics is no more actual economic science than the protectionist economic notions on the left.

Free market economics is not the same thing as supply side economics.
 
Last edited:
SouthernDemocrat said:
So, where is the empirical data that shows that supply side notions are valid economic science?

One aspect of science, and economics, is that when a particular practice results in a particular outcome in every observed case, a likelihood of correlation is proposed. If over time the observation is always the same, correlation is assumed. Over a greater span of time, correlation is considered established truth.

The correlation between lowering tax rate, and increased tax revenue, is established fact. It happens in all cases, and has happened throughout history. The reciprocal effect is also observed. Recently New York raised tobacco taxes, resulting in a drop in tobacco revenues.

The static model assumptions you employ, that human behavior will not change in the face of higher taxation leading to results other than predicted, are flawed. Likewise, the economy can not proceed at its current pace if a larger fraction of capital is removed via taxation. More revenue is produced when you have more taxpayers at lower marginal rates, than fewer at higher rates.

Leaving capital in the private sector will result in greater consumption, yielding greater demand, yielding a ramp-up of production, requiring more workers, yeilding more tax-payers.

You may continue to try to provide "empirical" arguments, using "unbiased" sources, if you like. It makes no difference to me. The facts remain that when the government employs supply-side principles in their economic policies, invariably both economic growth and federal receipts increase. As does general prosperity.
 
Last edited:
Carl said:
One aspect of science, and economics, is that when a particular practice results in a particular outcome in every observed case, a likelihood of correlation is proposed. If over time the observation is always the same, correlation is assumed. Over a greater span of time, correlation is considered established truth.
Actually, that is not completely correct. The correlation that is proposed is only a hypothesis. Then the individual who submits the hypothesis must show through empirical data why their hypothesis explains a result better than other hypothesis. Which of course is where your argument completely falls apart.

You claim that the increases in revenue during the 80s was a direct result of the tax reductions of 1981. However, the problem with your hypothesis is that federal revenue has increased every decade since 1945, and that revenue, as evidenced by the data I submitted, has a historical correlation with greater percentage increases in revenue following marginal tax increases than following marginal tax cuts. As evidenced by the fact that there was a greater percentage increase in federal revenue during the 1990s (after two tax increases) than during the 1980s.

The question it would seem that you have to answer in submitting your hypothesis is that if tax cuts always result in greater GDP and revenue growth than tax increases, then why after two tax increases one in 1989, and one in 1993, did federal revenue and GDP grow faster in the nineties than it did in the eighties?

If you can’t answer that question, then your theory is bunk.

Recently New York raised tobacco taxes, resulting in a drop in tobacco revenues.
Apples and oranges. New York, like many other states, drastically raised taxes on tobacco specifically to discourage tobacco use. I suppose that if anyone were actually proposing that federal income taxes be raised to communism levels, that you might have a point, but as such, its a ridiculous comparison.

The static model assumptions you employ, that human behavior will not change in the face of higher taxation leading to results other than predicted, is flawed………..
How so, I am not using a static model. In all the evidence I have provided, GDP growth was a factor.

It seems that you are not attempting to refute any of the evidence I provided. Instead you are simply ignoring it and reverting back to ideological talking points instead.
 
Last edited:
SouthernDemocrat said:
I suppose that if anyone were actually proposing that federal income taxes be raised to communism levels, that you might have a point, but as such, its a ridiculous comparison.

Very good, then. So we both agree that raising tax rates too high will result in a reduction in tax revenues. Doesn't the converse, then, also hold true?

That lowering tax rates, down to a certain level, will increase tax revenues?
 
Carl said:
Very good, then. So we both agree that raising tax rates too high will result in a reduction in tax revenues. Doesn't the converse, then, also hold true?

That lowering tax rates, down to a certain level, will increase tax revenues?

Not necessarily. While it is true that taxes above a certain level will provide a disincentive to production, it is not always true that any tax cut provides an incentive to increase production. For example, while there is plenty of empirical evidence to support the notion that a extremely high tax rates provide a disincentive for production and a as a result is a drag upon economic growth, there is not any empirical evidence to support the notion that any and all tax cuts result in greater production incentives.

As I pointed out earlier, for your argument to hold water, you would have to somehow explain through empirical data why revenue and GDP growth was greater during the nineties than it was during the eighties? It would seem that for your argument to hold water, the exact opposite would have to be true.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
While it is true that taxes above a certain level will provide a disincentive to production, it is not always true that any tax cut provides an incentive to increase production.

I see. So it is absolutely certain that raising taxes too high, such as the New York tobacco tax, will invariably reduce revenues thus making my argument ridiculous.

However the converse is not true. Lowering taxes from an inhibitory level will not neccessarily increase revenues.

I'm afraid you're trying to have your cake, and eat it too.

SouthernDemocrat said:
As I pointed out earlier, for your argument to hold water

I'm afraid you're not the designated authority on what "holds water". All my argument needs do is match reality, which it does.
 
Carl said:
I see. So it is absolutely certain that raising taxes too high, such as the New York tobacco tax, will invariably reduce revenues thus making my argument ridiculous.

However the converse is not true. Lowering taxes from an inhibitory level will not neccessarily increase revenues.

I'm afraid you're trying to have your cake, and eat it too.



I'm afraid you're not the designated authority on what "holds water". All my argument needs do is match reality, which it does.

I think you must be misunderstanding me. Most any economist would agree that a tax rate of say 70% would place a sizable drag on production. However, most any economist would also agree that if a tax rate of say 35% places no obvious drags on production, then a tax rate of say 30% would not lead to greater production.

Once again, all you have to do to prove your argument is to explain why revenue growth and GPD growth during the 80s was lower than during the nineties when one of the largest tax cuts in American history occurred in 1981 and one of the largest tax increases occurred in 1993?

That alone would appear to completely dispel supply side notions.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Evidently you need a simple education in how congress spends our money. ..........................

I know exactly how it spends the money but you dearly need an education in the requirements for systems going on a supersonice bomber. Your made up story has nothing to do with the facts.

As to your other arguments, I think I have more that sufficiently refuted them in other posts in this thread.

No but that is typical of your post, claim you rebutted it in some unkown thread and then run and hide.
 
Carl said:
You still labor under the illusion that somebody wins in these places?

No but when he can't rebut direct factual responses he claims to have done in some other place and runs. Note that he rebutted nothing I post in rebutal to his claims.
 
Carl said:
An interesting point of view. However, the Congress has always been, and remains, the only branch of government with the power to spend, or tax. It's blowing smoke to contend otherwise.


Ummm...yeah, I guess my earlier mention that the soonest any such line item veto bill would get out the gate is in 2009 slipped by you?

The fact that Bush is the leader of the party currently spending money like crazy doesn't mean anything to you?

He doesn't need a line item veto. That's a tool mostly used by executives facing ridiculous spending bills by legislatures controlled by the other party. Executives that know what they're doing are able to control their own party without the embarassment of vetoing their own party's spending bills.

Ergo, Bush's request for a line item veto is both a confession of his inadequacies and a shallow political ploy.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I think you must be misunderstanding me. Most any economist would agree that a tax rate of say 70% would place a sizable drag on production. However, most any economist would also agree that if a tax rate of say 35% places no obvious drags on production, then a tax rate of say 30% would not lead to greater production.

Once again, all you have to do to prove your argument is to explain why revenue growth and GPD growth during the 80s was lower than during the nineties when one of the largest tax cuts in American history occurred in 1981 and one of the largest tax increases occurred in 1993?

That alone would appear to completely dispel supply side notions.

A rock dropped from a height acclerates at 32 feet per second squared.

The equation governming the rock's position is:

S = 0.5 at^2

At the end of first second, the rock will be at S = 16 feet.
At the end of second second, the rock will be at S = 64 feet.
At the end of third second, the rock will be at S = 144 feet.
At the end of fourth second, the rock will be at S = 256 feet.
At the end of fifth second, the rock will be at S = 400 feet.

You're comments on the economy in the eighties and nineties is like an observer saying that the rock had a speed of 48 feet per second between seconds 1 and 2, and a speed of 144 feet per second between seconds 4 and 5, therefore whoever was in charge bewteen 4 and 5 must have been doing things better, when actually the speed is governed by governed by a linear function of the time elapsed since the release, and is indepent of who it was after.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
A rock dropped from a height acclerates at 32 feet per second squared.

The equation governming the rock's position is:

S = 0.5 at^2

At the end of first second, the rock will be at S = 16 feet.
At the end of second second, the rock will be at S = 64 feet.
At the end of third second, the rock will be at S = 144 feet.
At the end of fourth second, the rock will be at S = 256 feet.
At the end of fifth second, the rock will be at S = 400 feet.

You're comments on the economy in the eighties and nineties is like an observer saying that the rock had a speed of 48 feet per second between seconds 1 and 2, and a speed of 144 feet per second between seconds 4 and 5, therefore whoever was in charge bewteen 4 and 5 must have been doing things better, when actually the speed is governed by governed by a linear function of the time elapsed since the release, and is indepent of who it was after.

That is exactly my point!!!!! The economy grows and contracts regardless of who is in office.
 
Stinger said:
I know exactly how it spends the money but you dearly need an education in the requirements for systems going on a supersonice bomber. Your made up story has nothing to do with the facts.



No but that is typical of your post, claim you rebutted it in some unkown thread and then run and hide.

Run and hide, I only made about 20 posts on the matter in this thread. I get sick of having to repeat the same stuff to every right wing nut that seems to think that all we need to do is cut a little spending on social programs, yet massively increase defense spending, and all our budget woes will just magically go away.

Are you honestly claiming that there is not waist in terms of defense spending? Is that what you want to hang your hat on?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
That is exactly my point!!!!! The economy grows and contracts regardless of who is in office.



This is a multivariate analysis.
You cannot say that the economy grew faster after a tax increase, proving that tax cuts don't increase the economy better than tax increases. You have to understand the rates of change in proportion to other variables present at each given time interval, before decicding whether or not the economy would have grown faster or slower in response to an increase or decrease of a single variable.

Your analysis works well on those that don't understand the concept of partial differentials,and the fact that we do not operate in simple x and y coordinates.
Save that kind of rhetoric for the stump speaches.
 
taxedout said:
This is a multivariate analysis.
You cannot say that the economy grew faster after a tax increase, proving that tax cuts don't increase the economy better than tax increases. You have to understand the rates of change in proportion to other variables present at each given time interval, before decicding whether or not the economy would have grown faster or slower in response to an increase or decrease of a single variable.

Your analysis works well on those that don't understand the concept of partial differentials,and the fact that we do not operate in simple x and y coordinates.
Save that kind of rhetoric for the stump speaches.

I am aware of that, but my point is and was that if one is to argue as some on the right argue that tax cuts always equal economic and revenue growth, and that tax increases always equal economic stagnation and revenue decline, then they have to explain why the economy seems to grow every decade regardless of whether there were tax cuts or tax increases and it seems to grow at roughly the same rate.

For example, argueably, much of the GDP growth during the eighties was in the public sector. Moreover, much of the stimulus in the eighties was a result of energy prices declining in the mid eighties and interest rates declining as inflation fears eased.

My point in all of it is that there is little empirical evidence to suggest that what has been termed as "supply side economics" actually works. Then again, its not as though its actual economic science, but rather, its a catch all for what ever think tank inspired idea that rolls off the Wall Street Journal's editorial pages.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I am aware of that, but my point is and was that if one is to argue as some on the right argue that tax cuts always equal economic and revenue growth, and that tax increases always equal economic stagnation and revenue decline, then they have to explain why the economy seems to grow every decade regardless of whether there were tax cuts or tax increases and it seems to grow at roughly the same rate.

For example, argueably, much of the GDP growth during the eighties was in the public sector. Moreover, much of the stimulus in the eighties was a result of energy prices declining in the mid eighties and interest rates declining as inflation fears eased.

My point in all of it is that there is little empirical evidence to suggest that what has been termed as "supply side economics" actually works. Then again, its not as though its actual economic science, but rather, its a catch all for what ever think tank inspired idea that rolls off the Wall Street Journal's editorial pages.

The Laffer curve, which underlies the supply side theory, posits that at some level of taxation, incentive is decreased and overall revenues fall. Many conservative supply siders take this as rote, and ignore the other side of the theory which is that at some lower level of taxation, the incentive increased is not marginally great enough to make up for the lower tax rate, and revenues fall. The conservative supply siders tend to ignore this side of the equation and will repeat the mantra that cutting taxes increases government revenues, which is true only at high levels of taxation.

As demonstated earlier, you can see this at the extremes. At 100% tax rate there would be little incentive to work; at a 0% tax rate no matter how much incentive there is there are no revenues.

A cut in the tax rate, by definition, will lower revenue, all things being equal. Because tax revenues equal (roughly) gross income times the applicable rate. Lower the rate, and if gross income remains the same, tax revenues will go down, by mathematical definition.

A tax rate cut will cause revenues to go up only if the marginal greater increase in economic activity (or more specifically, the incomes that are taxed) is great enough so that additional tax revenues exceed the loss of revenue from the lower tax rate. Whether this happens depends on the marginal tax rate being cut and how it incentivizes people.

Consider for example, 2 scenarios. Scenario A has a tax rate of 90%. Scenario B there is a tax rate of 10%. Now let say there is a tax cut of 5 points. In scenario A, the tax rate is cut from 90% to 85%. People get to keep 15% of their money instead of 10%, a 50% increase, which would probably have an incentivizing effect. The effect on govt revenue is nil, since the tax rate decreased on slightly more than 5%. The 50% greater incentive will quite possibly induce people to work harder, earn more, and make up the 5% loss of of revenue from the tax cut. Supply side economics will work.

Now consider Scenario B. People kept 90% of their money before the tax cut, now they keep 95%. A slightly more than 5% increase. Probably won't incentive them a whole lot. But from the govt revenue side, the tax revenues have dropped from 10% to 5% -- a 50% decrease in revenue. People will have to work twice as hard to make up the difference, which they probably won't do since they are only keeping about 5% more of their money.

A simplified explanation, I agree, but it shows why tax cuts as an absolute rule won't necessarily increase government revenue, and, unless you are at that very high rate of taxation, will cause tax revenues to go down. Which is exactly what happened in the early 80s and 00s.
 
Iriemon said:
The Laffer curve, which underlies the supply side theory, posits that at some level of taxation, incentive is decreased and overall revenues fall. Many conservative supply siders take this as rote, and ignore the other side of the theory which is that at some lower level of taxation, the incentive increased is not marginally great enough to make up for the lower tax rate, and revenues fall. The conservative supply siders tend to ignore this side of the equation and will repeat the mantra that cutting taxes increases government revenues, which is true only at high levels of taxation.

As demonstated earlier, you can see this at the extremes. At 100% tax rate there would be little incentive to work; at a 0% tax rate no matter how much incentive there is there are no revenues.

A cut in the tax rate, by definition, will lower revenue, all things being equal. Because tax revenues equal (roughly) gross income times the applicable rate. Lower the rate, and if gross income remains the same, tax revenues will go down, by mathematical definition.

A tax rate cut will cause revenues to go up only if the marginal greater increase in economic activity (or more specifically, the incomes that are taxed) is great enough so that additional tax revenues exceed the loss of revenue from the lower tax rate. Whether this happens depends on the marginal tax rate being cut and how it incentivizes people.

Consider for example, 2 scenarios. Scenario A has a tax rate of 90%. Scenario B there is a tax rate of 10%. Now let say there is a tax cut of 5 points. In scenario A, the tax rate is cut from 90% to 85%. People get to keep 15% of their money instead of 10%, a 50% increase, which would probably have an incentivizing effect. The effect on govt revenue is nil, since the tax rate decreased on slightly more than 5%. The 50% greater incentive will quite possibly induce people to work harder, earn more, and make up the 5% loss of of revenue from the tax cut. Supply side economics will work.

Now consider Scenario B. People kept 90% of their money before the tax cut, now they keep 95%. A slightly more than 5% increase. Probably won't incentive them a whole lot. But from the govt revenue side, the tax revenues have dropped from 10% to 5% -- a 50% decrease in revenue. People will have to work twice as hard to make up the difference, which they probably won't do since they are only keeping about 5% more of their money.

A simplified explanation, I agree, but it shows why tax cuts as an absolute rule won't necessarily increase government revenue, and, unless you are at that very high rate of taxation, will cause tax revenues to go down. Which is exactly what happened in the early 80s and 00s.

I could not have said it better myself. Finally another voice of reason on this subject. Of course, you will find that reason and pragmatism is fully lost on those who rank ideology above it.
 
Back
Top Bottom