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Social Justice

True. As Romans 12 explained, we have been given differing gifts to use - with our free will.
It's how we use them that matters.

That doesn't limit, or stop us from participating in collective endeavors (like what we do when we support the ministries of our churches, responding to the Food Bank, Salvation Army, and other fund-raising activities that benefit those who are in need - whether it be locally or globally). Supporting our missionaries is a collective endeavor - and that help goes far beyond than just providing merely material help.
It helps bring people to Christ. What better help than to offer the living bread?

Our mission is to spread the Gospel.

We'll never eliminate poverty and sufferings. Jesus taught us to help those who are in need, to defend the weak and the defenceless. He didn't instruct us to eliminate poverty and sufferings - that elimination will happen in His Kingdom which will be established in His second Coming.....there'll be no more hunger and sufferings.

It's all about that one-on-one relationship; everything else springs from this, whether we are responding individually or collectively. Jesus didn't "organize"; to this day He calls each one of us, and not collectively but, rather, individually. One to one.
 
It's all about that one-on-one relationship; everything else springs from this, whether we are responding individually or collectively. Jesus didn't "organize"; to this day He calls each one of us, and not collectively but, rather, individually. One to one.

Well-said.
 
You think giving should be by government mandate, and without condition. Well God expects each man to give according to his means, and his heart. Government mandate eliminates charity that is WILLINGLY given, and substitutes giving by law and force. Obeying God is a free will exercise, because then it's apparent who obeys because they truly have faith.....and not by coercive force.

That is personal individual advice, not advice on how to run society ....

Again how many times do I have to say Charity is not philanthropy, it's a way of looking at fellow humans.

It's not about mandates ... a public part vrs a private park is not mandate vrs. free choice ... it's people vrs profit. You're making up a strawman.
 
No part of using centralized resources to ensure that no one goes without the basic needs at any point suggests a licence by anyone not to contribute. Why would it? The idea of an unemployed underclass that contributes nothing and lives off of the effort of others (children and the elderly not included, of course) is as abhorrent to me as it is to you. But you seem to think that people will gladly laze about all day if the punishment for doing so is not abject destitution, whereas I know that when given the chance to work, contribute, and accomplish something, nearly every single person will take that opportunity.

But let's not kid ourselves. The Christian obsession with charity has almost nothing to do with actually helping those in need. Not anymore. In the past, when there was no better alternative, sure. But not now. It is entirely about how noble and spiritually well it makes the giver feel. Private or religious charity is a wholly ineffective means to truly eradicate poverty from our society and demanding that the method that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside and feeds the selfish desire for a spiritual reward (because it's not about helping the poor, it's about securing your own place in heaven) over the one that can actually work is just stupid without that selfish motive. Pissing and moaning that people two thousand years ago didn't understand how a democratically elected government with completely different mandates than the Roman Empire and so we must be like the Romans is equally stupid.

Do what Jesus would do, give up the chance to give a little donation to make yourself feel better and score some points on the soul board and actually change the world in his name. Give up something that isn't convenient for you. Undertake a real sacrifice. If you really want to emulate someone who gave up Earthly wealth and wandered and preached, and then suffered torture and agonizing death for you, do more than just write a check when you can afford it.

Exactly ... The Prophets wern't angry becasue there wasn't enough philanthropy, the christians wern't worries that the rich were being mean to the poor.

The Message was deal with the issue at the heart of it, look at Isaiah 65 (which I quote), it's essencially saying the problem is economic exploitation, the same with teh first church, it wasn't philanthropy, they created a whole new economic collective system.

The same with the law code, it wasn't philanthropy, it was a whole system that was more collective rather than private.

They all go back to the same talking point about philanthropy ... (Misusing the word charity which I've pointed out over and over again, does not mean philanthropy, it means agape love.) Which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Deciding whether or not to have a public park of privitize land, or have public healthcare or private healthcare is not a question of "forced philanthropy or voluntary," that's a strawman, its a question of what is more important, social wellbeing or private profit? what's more important individual people or property?

And the scriptures are uninimous on what side they are one, it's social wellbeing over private profit, it's indivudal people over property, EVERYTIME.
 
So what? JESUS was there! All the more proving that contrary to what you're saying, there's no such requirement/stipulation to sell everything and put everything in a common fund for re-distribution! Where do you think Christianity came from?

Yeah ... There was no organization ... by that logic we can say homosexuality wasn't a sin since Jesus didn't talk about it, or we shouldn't have churches since Jesus didn't start them, it's total nonsense, there was no church at that point.


1. You're talking about ONE verse, and ignoring the rest, where it says they held all things in common, no one owned anthing they possessed, they all held everything in common.

2. You're making a false dictomy between forced and voluntary .... deciding to have a public park vrs a private park isn't a choice between force and voluntary .... How is the question of public heathcare vrs private heathcare a question of "forced vrs voluntary," it isn't, this is simply a strawman,

its a question of social wellbeing over private profit, it's a question of people over property ... and guess what the bible is for social well being and people over profit and property EVERY SINGLE TIME.

No one is talking about forced philanrhopy here ... and AGAIN CHAIRTY IS NOT PHILANTHROPY ... Look up the word agape ...

But you're promoting falsehoods and corrupting the Scriptures when you post messages like this:

Where am I wrong there? I can point to the times where the rich oppress the poor and so on, point me to the verse where it says the opposite?

It's not the Bible that I mock....but the hypocrisy of those who give lectures and castigate others. Those who do the talk but don't do the walk.

You go on about the greed of capitalism and corporations - yet you perhaps partake of the goods they sell you, and thus you support them in their greed. You paint everyone with the same brush - from the wealthy to small business-owners and large corporations.

If all you like-minded individuals want to make a big impact with your statement - then, don't buy!

If you think having a commune is the best way - I don't think there's any law in our part of the world stopping you. There's been many communes formed in the name of "Christianity" - but they all ended up being nothing more but cults, and led by nothing more than self-proclaimed dictators. Remember Jim Jones?

1. I do walk the walk.
2. Everyone partakes of the goods, because we live in a system dominated by them, even Paul ate meat from the temples, because that's where a lot of it came from, that doesn't mean he supports the temple system.
3. Not buying, doen'st change anything, ever.
4. I never argued to make a commune, I argued to approach socio-economics the way the apostles would have, Jesus would have, and the prophets and OT people DID ....

Also very cute with you're Jim Jones thing, I can bring up right wing lunatic christians all day as well, but I don't because it's a childish argument.

As for your doing good - GOOD FOR YOU! At least you're doing something in your own way, you are a political activist I assume - and your interest and/or studies/experience/talent is in politics, or with this kind of stuff. But don't knock down Christians - and make them to be lesser Christians - for not doing the same that you do.

I'm not knocking christians that are not political activists, another strawman.

I'm knocking people that leave all the christian principles at the door when they deal with politics and economics .... (other than dislike of homosexuals and so on), If you're not going to deal with politics, thats fine, if you are, and you're a christian, then christian principles would apply.

Romans 12
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

yeah .... I never said otherwise ... Point out where I said EVERY christian nees to be a social justice activist?
 
Nota Bene is right! That biblical verse has nothing to do with the act of giving. IN FACT, that verse shows Jesus not intervening with government! It supports our assertion.



Matthew 22
The Pharisees: Is It Lawful to Pay Taxes to Caesar?

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.”

So they brought Him a denarius.

20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”

21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”

And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.



Head of Joaquin, (and all you quote-mining Bible snippets here and there, and taking things out of context), read, study and understand the Bible. Learn the basics how to read and understand the Bible. Please forgive me if that sounds condescending - it's not meant to be.

How to understand the Bible
http://www.ucg.org/files/booklets/how-to-understand-the-bible.pdf

You do realize what was going on there right?, THe pharisees were trying to catch Jesus in an act of sedition and revolution.

As I said in the OP VERY CLEARLY .... Jesus and the early christians were not revolutionaries ....

BUT everytime economic matters did come up, it was social wellbeing before private profit, and people before property ... every time they organized economically, it was collectivist and concerned with egalitarianism rather than concerned with property and profit.
 
True. As Romans 12 explained, we have been given differing gifts to use - with our free will.
It's how we use them that matters.

That doesn't limit, or stop us from participating in collective endeavors (like what we do when we support the ministries of our churches, responding to the Food Bank, Salvation Army, and other fund-raising activities that benefit those who are in need - whether it be locally or globally). Supporting our missionaries is a collective endeavor - and that help goes far beyond than just providing merely material help.
It helps bring people to Christ. What better help than to offer the living bread?

Our mission is to spread the Gospel.

We'll never eliminate poverty and sufferings. Jesus taught us to help those who are in need, to defend the weak and the defenceless. He didn't instruct us to eliminate poverty and sufferings - that elimination will happen in His Kingdom which will be established in His second Coming.....there'll be no more hunger and sufferings.

yeah ... We'll never totally eliminate poverty and suffering, we'll never eliminate sinfullness either, we'll never NOT be sinfull, does that mean that I can just practice sin willy nilly because "hey we'll never fully get rid of sin." No, it doesn't.

If we are found amung those supporting institutions that create things that God hates, injustice, oppression of the poor, poverty, and so on, what makes you think you won't be held accountable for it? Jesus held the leaders of his time accountable, God held the nations in the OT accountable ....

If you are dealing with political or economic institutions, and you are putting profit over social wellbeing, if you are putting property over people, if you're supporting policies and institutions that create wealth for the rich but harm the poor, you're going AGAINST the principles of the bible, and what makes you think that God would view that as any less of a sin than say adultery, fraud, or something like that.
 
It's all about that one-on-one relationship; everything else springs from this, whether we are responding individually or collectively. Jesus didn't "organize"; to this day He calls each one of us, and not collectively but, rather, individually. One to one.

yeah, no one argues otherwise ... but how we respond individually, has als oto do with how we individually deal with our neighbor (i.e. society).
 
It's all about that one-on-one relationship; everything else springs from this, whether we are responding individually or collectively. Jesus didn't "organize"; to this day He calls each one of us, and not collectively but, rather, individually. One to one.

No it's not. It's about WHO we are as Christians, and "Christians" who accumulate wealth for their own use are according to Paul false. We shouldn't even eat with them. And according to Jesus their heart is on their money, not on God. They are lost.

If you are a Christian you act like one, and voting is an act. And thus Christians vote their conscious for policies that help the poor.

Now, there can be sincere disagreements as to what policies help the poor, but that's not what's being said here from those denying the social element of Christianity. What's being said is that somehow social movements to help the poor are invalid because they aren't "individual". That is a totally made up doctrine, made to support "market evangelism" which has nothing to do with gospel
 
It's not the Bible that I mock....but the hypocrisy of those who give lectures and castigate others. Those who do the talk but don't do the walk.

Proverb 17:5 - Whoever mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker.

Voting for social policies that help the poor IS walking the walk, and pretending it's not or pretending that individual charity is a substitute for social action by all of us, is a rationalization for self-serving politics
 
Proverb 17:5 - Whoever mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker.

Voting for social policies that help the poor IS walking the walk, and pretending it's not or pretending that individual charity is a substitute for social action by all of us, is a rationalization for self-serving politics

But unless you sit in the halls of the legislature, you are not voting for social policies or walking the walk. I do not recall welfare being on my ballot ever.
 
yeah, no one argues otherwise ... but how we respond individually, has als oto do with how we individually deal with our neighbor (i.e. society).

Well, some do argue otherwise. What how we respond as individuals has to do with how we individually deal with our neighbors (including "good works") is this: The way we treat our neighbors is a result, an outgrowth, of our unique relationship one-on-one with God.
 
But unless you sit in the halls of the legislature, you are not voting for social policies or walking the walk. I do not recall welfare being on my ballot ever.

I do recall voting for legislators who support programs and policies that help poor kids make it in life. Are you claiming that you aren't aware of the policy positions of the representatives you vote for?
 
I do recall voting for legislators who support programs and policies that help poor kids make it in life. Are you claiming that you aren't aware of the policy positions of the representatives you vote for?

No, you voted for legislators. The people who voted for the other guys may very well believe that theirs was the position that best helped "poor kids make it in life." Doesn't change that their good works are not your good works.
 
No, you voted for legislators. The people who voted for the other guys may very well believe that theirs was the position that best helped "poor kids make it in life." Doesn't change that their good works are not your good works.

It's not just voting, but lets take voting, you ARE responsible for who your vote for, so if a candidate says "I'm gonna cut food stamps, privitize public utilities, deport immigrants even if it brakes up a family," and you vote for them, you are partially responsible if those things happen, I'm not saying you should be held accountable, but morally, if you vote you should take christian principles into account.

But this isn't ONLY voting.
 
It's not just voting, but lets take voting, you ARE responsible for who your vote for, so if a candidate says "I'm gonna cut food stamps, privitize public utilities, deport immigrants even if it brakes up a family," and you vote for them, you are partially responsible if those things happen, I'm not saying you should be held accountable, but morally, if you vote you should take christian principles into account.

But this isn't ONLY voting.

What do Christian principles have to do with who owns utility companies?
 
What do Christian principles have to do with who owns utility companies?

I don't know off hand, that's something you'd need to think about, like "is this going to harm the 'least of these?'" That could be one, or perhaps no christian principles, my point is that you don't get to leave your christian principles at the door to the voting booth.
 
I don't know off hand, that's something you'd need to think about, like "is this going to harm the 'least of these?'" That could be one, or perhaps no christian principles, my point is that you don't get to leave your christian principles at the door to the voting booth.

The implication of the position is that there is a right and wrong way to vote if you are a Christian. That is very seldom the case. You may think that voting for a democrat who wants to expand welfare is more Christian and somebody else may think that voting for a Republican who thinks that not giving more money to addicts, deadbeats, etc or extorting fewer tax dollars from the struggling workers is the more Christian vote. People can rationalize pretty much anything they do. Either way, I do not see that casting a vote is inherently a Christian endeavor or that there is a right or wrong way for a Christian to vote in an election. Maybe on a ballot initiative where their vote actually determines the outcome, but even then, it is suspect to me.
 
What do Christian principles have to do with who owns utility companies?

Each Christian has to search his own conscience about that, and if a particular way of delivering utilities results in hardship and problems for the poor and weak, then he has to decide what to do about it -- say voting for politicians who will change those policies.

Why do you find it odd that economic relationships actually affect people's lives, especially the poor? And why would you want to close the possibility that Christians apply their values in that realm? Seems like an agenda to me.
 
No, you voted for legislators. The people who voted for the other guys may very well believe that theirs was the position that best helped "poor kids make it in life." Doesn't change that their good works are not your good works.

This argument doesn't follow. What counts is intention. If you intend to help the poor by voting for a politician then you have done a good work, even if nothing comes of it. God judges the heart, not your balance sheet.

Indeed, if you do the right thing for the wrong reason, God doesn't honor it at all. Hence:

Luke 21: 1He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury;2and he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins. 3And he said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them; 4for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all the living that she had."

Mat 6 - 2Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward
 
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Each Christian has to search his own conscience about that, and if a particular way of delivering utilities results in hardship and problems for the poor and weak, then he has to decide what to do about it -- say voting for politicians who will change those policies.

Why do you find it odd that economic relationships actually affect people's lives, especially the poor? And why would you want to close the possibility that Christians apply their values in that realm? Seems like an agenda to me.

Hardly an agenda. One cannot get their way into heaven by voting democrat or republican....as for the other, blather. I have lived in areas where the government controlled the utilities and where one purchased from private companies, and the private companies were always the better deal.
 
.......

Mat 6 - 2Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward

Sounds to me like you are trying to sound trumpets........
 
Sounds to me like you are trying to sound trumpets........

Sounds to me like I've rebutted your claim with a quote from Jesus, and your response is defensive and not cogent.
 
Hardly an agenda. One cannot get their way into heaven by voting democrat or republican....as for the other, blather. I have lived in areas where the government controlled the utilities and where one purchased from private companies, and the private companies were always the better deal.

Since the issue is not "getting to heaven" but living a Christian life, this post seems perversely off point, and again suggest some other agenda, like a particular theology about "getting to heaven."
 
This argument doesn't follow. What counts is intention. If you intend to help the poor by voting for a politician then you have done a good work, even if nothing comes of it. God judges the heart, not your balance sheet.

Indeed, if you do the right thing for the wrong reason, God doesn't honor it at all. Hence:

Luke 21: 1He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury;2and he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins. 3And he said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them; 4for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all the living that she had."

Mat 6 - 2Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward

Good saying, so why do you have Silver written over your name? Hmmm?
 
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