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So why do federal deficits and debt exist in the first place?

Exactly but also the only reason we need infinite line go up is because of capitalism.
This is wrong too. I concede that capitalism, or better stated, a nation as successful as the US has money to spend, and much of that spending results in energy created and the byproducts that go with it.

But that's not the only, or even most important reason IMO.....(if I may restate) that we use energy and resources at the rate we do. We live in a competitive world. People fight over land, water, and the resources they contain. If you cannot defend them, someone will almost certainly take them away from any nation that commits to not utilizing the "easy" way to dump trash or fuel vehicles. If you have the solution to world peace, let us know, but until then technology is our best best. Steam turbines and gasoline engines still do a lot of work for their cost. Electric is getting close, advancements in batteries will almost certainly come and the advantages of electric from a practical standpoint will come, and not soon enough. But lets be realistic. We cannot abandon FF's yet. What we can do is continue to make whatever uses them more efficient (do you remember under Obama Republicans and the car industry told us 35MPG, Obama's target by 2016 couldn't happen, yet the Honda ICE engine car I drove last week (rental) got 42mpg). Technology will help and people agreeing to change their habits will also help.
 
Renewable energies are more than enough, they are just untapped. Water doesn't go anywhere. Garbage and recycling issues are a matter of us being both lazy and cheap. But change the priorities (from profits to quality of life), and those are also solvable problems. It looks impossible because we are looking at it through a capitalist lens.
Or, yeah....what he said.
 
This is wrong too. I concede that capitalism, or better stated, a nation as successful as the US has money to spend, and much of that spending results in energy created and the byproducts that go with it.

But that's not the only, or even most important reason IMO.....(if I may restate) that we use energy and resources at the rate we do. We live in a competitive world. People fight over land, water, and the resources they contain. If you cannot defend them, someone will almost certainly take them away from any nation that commits to not utilizing the "easy" way to dump trash or fuel vehicles. If you have the solution to world peace, let us know, but until then technology is our best best. Steam turbines and gasoline engines still do a lot of work for their cost. Electric is getting close, advancements in batteries will almost certainly come and the advantages of electric from a practical standpoint will come, and not soon enough. But lets be realistic. We cannot abandon FF's yet. What we can do is continue to make whatever uses them more efficient (do you remember under Obama Republicans and the car industry told us 35MPG, Obama's target by 2016 couldn't happen, yet the Honda ICE engine car I drove last week (rental) got 42mpg). Technology will help and people agreeing to change their habits will also help.

Actually countries that adopt other systems have been able to weather even shutdowns without losing a whole lot because they are not primarily focused on making line go up. They dont feel the constant need to produce to make GDP grow, they just produce things they need. We live in a competitive world because of capitalism but even competitiveness can destroy companies (cough cough SEARS when they tried to Ayn Rand the whole company culture, pure self destruction on the whole ensued)). The capitalist system isnt really sustainable and good luck even reforming it at this point so best to just jettison it.
 
We live in a competitive world because of capitalism
So authoritarian regimes aren't competitive? Russia invaded Ukraine because of capitalism?

but even competitiveness can destroy companies (cough cough SEARS when they tried to Ayn Rand the whole company culture, pure self destruction on the whole ensued)
100% agree. In the context that Libertarians use the term "free market" to describe capitalism, the term "free market" is little more than a euphemism for "lawless market". Rand's Objectivism sounds like hell on earth. Honestly, I'm beginning to believe that the real political divide is between those that lack empathy and those that are consumed with it.

I don't think this is all that capitalism has to be, any more than the history of socialism really represents all it can be. But I believe in the best parts of capitalism system tempered with the best parts of socialism is the best system, and I think that in the US probably in the 1950's we got as close to it as we ever have economically. Socially it's post civil rights era. The US has, IMO not reached it's either social or economic potential, but let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
 
So authoritarian regimes aren't competitive? Russia invaded Ukraine because of capitalism?


100% agree. In the context that Libertarians use the term "free market" to describe capitalism, the term "free market" is little more than a euphemism for "lawless market". Rand's Objectivism sounds like hell on earth. Honestly, I'm beginning to believe that the real political divide is between those that lack empathy and those that are consumed with it.

I don't think this is all that capitalism has to be, any more than the history of socialism really represents all it can be. But I believe in the best parts of capitalism system tempered with the best parts of socialism is the best system, and I think that in the US probably in the 1950's we got as close to it as we ever have economically. Socially it's post civil rights era. The US has, IMO not reached it's either social or economic potential, but let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Capitalists already believe the enemy is at the gates and it is their time to bring out the fascists to protect their interests. This is no backlash to any real threat, only they have the power and now they are ensuring their class rule will be extended.
I probably should have been a bit more nuanced here. Good catch. We live in a hyper competitive society in the US because of capitalism, socialists rely more on cooperation and mutual aid which capitalism teaches is scary. (my own socialist group doesnt rely on competition but on cooperation and consensus building. It doesnt mean that we mindlessly agree, just most things we tend to agree on)
 
Capitalists already believe the enemy is at the gates
Now your over-generalizing. Fascists ≠ Capitalists

and it is their time to bring out the fascists to protect their interests
Capitalism and socialism are both economic systems, not political.


We live in a hyper competitive society in the US because of capitalism, socialists rely more on cooperation and mutual aid which capitalism teaches is scary. (my own socialist group doesnt rely on competition but on cooperation and consensus building. It doesnt mean that we mindlessly agree, just most things we tend to agree on)
The kind of socialism you are promoting works best in smaller homogeneous societies, where a nation has to punch above its weight to survive. The US is, in a way the victim of it's own success. But I don't think socialism will work in the US. I think we can have socialistic system built on egalitarian ideals, but the mythology of the US is just not conducive to a socialist state, especially in such a pluralistic society.
 
Now your over-generalizing. Fascists ≠ Capitalists


Capitalism and socialism are both economic systems, not political.



The kind of socialism you are promoting works best in smaller homogeneous societies, where a nation has to punch above its weight to survive. The US is, in a way the victim of it's own success. But I don't think socialism will work in the US. I think we can have socialistic system built on egalitarian ideals, but the mythology of the US is just not conducive to a socialist state, especially in such a pluralistic society.
When capitalists are most threatened or believe they are most threatened while having near absolute power, they throw off all pretense of democracy and hire the fascists.

Is this every capitalist? No, but it gives a general class interest analysis.

Actually socialism is designed to work in multicultural societies as the working class of all backgrounds are needed.

It then becomes a choice between socialism or barbarism.

This will be my last post on the matter so as to not totally hijack the thread.
 
I think that pretty much every thread in this "Government Spending and Debt" section misses the mark in a fundamental way. Governments with their own currency do not go into true, household-type debt when they issue bonds. It is simply another way that governments exercise their power to create and spend their own currency.

When our government deficit spends, it does so by issuing bonds. The private sector buys those bonds, and the government promptly spends the proceeds right back into the economy; the net result is an increase in bonds held by the PS as rock-solid assets, an increase in aggregate demand, and no change in the number of dollars. (The Fed adjusts the number of reserves/dollars up or down in a separate operation, as they see fit.) The government essentially buys what it wants by issuing bonds, and those bonds never need to be extinguished (just maintained, by issuing more bonds). i.e., the government is self-funding, and does not borrow in order to spend. Understanding this changes the whole cost/benefit analysis of government spending.

For reference, GDP = G + C + I + (X-M). G is govt. spending, including deficit spending, C is consumption, I in investment, and (X-M) is net exports.

So why do we run deficits, anyway? Discuss.

I think there's a much simpler argument that goes to what exactly a lot of people are talking about. It creates an incentive structure for people to believe in and keep the government afloat. If the government issues a bond that people buy, those people want a return on their investment. So their interests align with keeping the government afloat and intact to create stability in the market. A simple answer but the one that I like to focus on. It's how the government keeps itself floating is what matters more.
 
I used to ride the DC metro into (drum roll plz), DC.

And how do you get on a train? You buy a ticket. The machine prints one out. So you fare card gets credited. The metro system as a whole has created credit,

That is not analogous to creating money. The ticket isn't spendable outside of the train station. It's not a general currency, it's prepaid and it doesn't circulate. Inflation is driven by too much money chasing too few goods. Train tickets don’t chase anything. They’re only good for a ride and that's it.

because until you spend the entirety of what's on that card, the system is in debt to you. You are owed a ride on the subway equal to value of your card minus the cost of the ride (the number of stops you can go). I rode the Metro of the better part of 10 years, and you know what? That machine every morning would print out thousands and thousands of tickets.

That is not equivalent to printing money. You can print as many tickets as you want, but there's no devaluation. This is completely different from fiat currency where too much supply erodes purchasing power.
 
That is not analogous to creating money. The ticket isn't spendable outside of the train station. It's not a general currency, it's prepaid and it doesn't circulate. Inflation is driven by too much money chasing too few goods. Train tickets don’t chase anything. They’re only good for a ride and that's it.

Analogies are never perfect, but this is a pretty good one.

Saying that inflation is "too much money chasing too few goods" is a massive oversimplification. You only get that scenario when there is a real economic problem, like a supply shock, not because the government and/or banks are creating too much money.

That is not equivalent to printing money. You can print as many tickets as you want, but there's no devaluation. This is completely different from fiat currency where too much supply erodes purchasing power.

We don't create money just to create money. The government doesn't even create new money when they deficit spend. Bank loans are created for a purpose, and that money supply goes up and down with the demand for loans, which basically follows the economy.
 
Eh....I didn't realize I had hit post and didn't finish editing....I made some mistakes as I'm trying to do to many things at once.

Here is the corrected, easier to read version.

That is not analogous to creating money.
As John said, it's not a perfect analogy, no analogies are, but the premise is still the same. The Metro system issues it's currency, farecards, the fact that you purchase them with another token, the dollar is irrelevant, dollars are earned though, by most people that ride trains though work. In fact, as I'm sure you know, in the past there have been company towns that paid workers in scrip that could be spent in the town (skipping paying dollars). The point being that the relationship between the farecard and the dollar is similar in that they are fiat currencies used to buy a services (in the case of fare cards) and for dollars anything for sale in the dollar.

Farecards must be issued first, before anyone can consume the product, rides on trains. Same for dollars. They must be issued before anyone can make purchases.

Inflation/ deflation can absolutely happen within a Metro system just as they can in an economy....

If the system artificially restricted the number of cards issued to, let's say, 20% less than the number of farecards sold. Demand for farecards would increase relative to supply. The result would be the system raising prices to prevent shortages. Price goes up.

Conversely, if the number fare cards issued wasn't restricted, but the subway cars in service is reduced by 20% and people couldn't get on the train when they wanted to, the value of the service provided would decline as fewer people would ride the subway resulting in selling fewer fare cards, potentially forcing the Metro system to lower the price and servicing less people. Price goes up.

These are really the same result, but the cause of price going up is different.
But what if the system lowered the price by 20%. Demand increases, and if the system has unused capacity and can hire more engineers to drive more trains, the result is prices go down.

Of course this example isolates a single currency to a single product, but the fundamentals are exactly the same.

Money is issued and people use it to make purchases in our economy (farecards). As long as the supply of goods and services (trains available to ride on time) that people need and want is available, prices (in a reasonably competitive system) prices will be reasonably stable. But if goods and services are restricted let's say by a global pandemic (the number of subway cars is restricted, or whatever reason, resulting in demand exceeding supply), then store shelves go empty (there aren't enough subway cars for all the people that want to ride), good and services (rides on subways) are harder to acquire, prices go up. Conversely, if the supply of money is restricted (fewer farecards sold than demanded), (which, in the economy is achieved by charging a higher price to borrow resulting in less borrowing and less money circulating), which is what you want, then the capacity to create and supply goods will outpace the capacity and desire to consume them resulting in the value of money rising, at least until surplus goods turn into a deficit and the capacity to create more being destroyed (though downsizing, business failures and closings ect.). Eventually, supply and demand will come back into equilibrium, and the only thing you've accomplished is an increase in unemployment so that you can feel better about the number of dollars circulating.

The Metro system comparison simply allows us to view relationships between a currency and products in a narrow way, but the fundamentals are exactly the same.
 
Money=Debt

The reason that not going into debt is scary is because the result is less money. Less money hurts people who have, <drum roll please> less money.
Thats where prices come in. Money = ability to demand. Overly simplistic. Sometimes i really wonder about MMT.

More money is not equaling higher standards of living. This is a problem i have with MMTers.
 
Expenditures are someone else’s income however, there is more than one way to get income that doesnt involve borrowing. Consumer debt is in fact lowering our standard of living in the long run.
 
Thats where prices come in. Money = ability to demand. Overly simplistic. Sometimes i really wonder about MMT.

More money is not equaling higher standards of living. This is a problem i have with MMTers.
This is one of the things I get frustrated about when people talk about MMT (not you, just in general). I abhor the idea that MMT is a social prescription on how we aught to do things. I vehemently disagree. I think MMT is purely a description about how modern money works. I use the example of an understanding of Physics. (not that MMT is as rigorous as physics mind you). Physics is the best explanation of how our universe works. Applying physics to a problem can tell you how to solve it. What physics cannot do is tell you if the problem solved should be solved, nor does it tell you how you should solve it (should we build a suspension bridge out of metal, or a truss bridge out of wood), it won't tell you if solving the problem is good or bad. So when we use MMT to solve problems, there is an implicit claim that the problem should be solved.

Similarly any understanding of sovereign money theories (of which MMT is one), cannot tell you what problems are worth solving and necessary how they should be solved. Determining if the application of MMT is correct relies entirely on subjective criteria. In other words, you might say that healthcare is a human right and I might disagree and say that private insurance is better (hypothetical, not what I believe). If we use MMT to understand how many is created, and we agree that healthcare is something that people should have etc....MMT can tell us how the government could pay for public options but the good or bad of that explanation will be determined by subjective moral and ethical criteria.

As far as your claim that money=ability to demand, I agree, broadly speaking. Which is why calling debt "scary" is implicitly perpetuating the view that debt is bad and must be eliminated. You are right though, my claim was overly simplified.

An undeniable fact about sovereign money and fiat currency is that dollars are created by taking zero and splitting zero into 1 and -1. Or simply that debt/ asset pairs are what create modern money. The positive exists as a result of the negative and vica versa. It's really simpler than most people realize. This is just simple accounting. The -1 is held by the government as a record of the creation of the 1 (we're of course talking about dollars). The only way to cancel out -1 is with a positive 1 and what you are left with is zero. Said another way, repaying $1 dollar in debt, (-$1) is to apply $1. Or, -1 + 1=0. If you have a small fire and a glass of water and you pour the water on the fire, you didn't just put out the fire you no longer have a glass of water.

So the elimination of debt also eliminates dollars in circulation. Historically this leaves people worse off and the economy is less stable because the private sector historically, borrows more.

Now to your claim that more money does not equal a higher standard of living. You're going to have to be more specific, because my response would be to ask; does less money result in a lower standard of living?

The answer in both cases that depends. If we create and spend money, who benefits? If we remove money via debt repayment, who has less? MMT won't give you the answer to those questions, unless we project a desired outcome over the question. But again, MMT can only tell you, in the light of the desired outcome, operationally this is the best way to achieve it (assuming we knew enough of the variables).

I apologize for being long winded, JFC is better at summing this stuff up, I only hope my verbose explanations add something.

-Cheers.
 
Expenditures are someone else’s income however, there is more than one way to get income that doesnt involve borrowing. Consumer debt is in fact lowering our standard of living in the long run.
Few things. Thanks for being a good sport and engaging in conversation. My initial response to you was to play a little devils advocate and to see if I could learn anything from our conversation.

Ok, so I think you might be responding to my claim that all spending is earned as income. Where the money comes from really isn't important, rather, the lesson to be learned is, if it's true, and it is, then it's opposite must also be true. Not spending (saving) results in less income. Now that is just an observation meant to illustrate that repayment of debt will result in less income all (other things being equal), specifically elimination of $1 in debt results in $1 less spending (except it can be more, see below**). Now, less debt in a household on a steady income will result in more money in the pocket, but that's not the way it works for governments or even banks. Repayment results in reduction in money in the economy overall (again, all other things being equal), or more specifically, if the amount repaid is greater than amounts borrowed over the same time, money is eliminated.

What you're describing is the velocity of money, which is calculated as the number of dollars x the number of times they change hands. For example, if an economy has $1000 and on average each dollar changes hands 5 times, then that economy with have a GDP of $5000. Or a velocity of 5. Velocity can drift some year over year, but historically stays in a fairly narrow band. Thus, you're right in pointing that out, but it's not a significant factor overall to the points I've made.

**Ok, so now if we have an economy with $1000 and a velocity of 5, then $1 less in spending doesn't result in $4999 in GDP, rather every dollar circulates between 5 people, so eliminating $1 results in $5 less in GDP.

Now this isn't perfect and can't be measured to quite that level of accuracy because of other forces at play. Also, as dollars decline, there may be an uptick in velocity as a result, and the same might be true for an increase in money where velocity decreases. I think this may be the result of savings. That is, as there are fewer dollars, people are more likely to take money from savings, dollars that usually don't circulate, and when there is more money more people may save reducing velocity, but again, these are two of 100's of variables.
 
This is one of the things I get frustrated about when people talk about MMT (not you, just in general). I abhor the idea that MMT is a social prescription on how we aught to do things. I vehemently disagree. I think MMT is purely a description about how modern money works. I use the example of an understanding of Physics. (not that MMT is as rigorous as physics mind you). Physics is the best explanation of how our universe works. Applying physics to a problem can tell you how to solve it. What physics cannot do is tell you if the problem solved should be solved, nor does it tell you how you should solve it (should we build a suspension bridge out of metal, or a truss bridge out of wood), it won't tell you if solving the problem is good or bad. So when we use MMT to solve problems, there is an implicit claim that the problem should be solved.

Similarly any understanding of sovereign money theories (of which MMT is one), cannot tell you what problems are worth solving and necessary how they should be solved. Determining if the application of MMT is correct relies entirely on subjective criteria. In other words, you might say that healthcare is a human right and I might disagree and say that private insurance is better (hypothetical, not what I believe). If we use MMT to understand how many is created, and we agree that healthcare is something that people should have etc....MMT can tell us how the government could pay for public options but the good or bad of that explanation will be determined by subjective moral and ethical criteria.

As far as your claim that money=ability to demand, I agree, broadly speaking. Which is why calling debt "scary" is implicitly perpetuating the view that debt is bad and must be eliminated. You are right though, my claim was overly simplified.

An undeniable fact about sovereign money and fiat currency is that dollars are created by taking zero and splitting zero into 1 and -1. Or simply that debt/ asset pairs are what create modern money. The positive exists as a result of the negative and vica versa. It's really simpler than most people realize. This is just simple accounting. The -1 is held by the government as a record of the creation of the 1 (we're of course talking about dollars). The only way to cancel out -1 is with a positive 1 and what you are left with is zero. Said another way, repaying $1 dollar in debt, (-$1) is to apply $1. Or, -1 + 1=0. If you have a small fire and a glass of water and you pour the water on the fire, you didn't just put out the fire you no longer have a glass of water.

So the elimination of debt also eliminates dollars in circulation. Historically this leaves people worse off and the economy is less stable because the private sector historically, borrows more.

Now to your claim that more money does not equal a higher standard of living. You're going to have to be more specific, because my response would be to ask; does less money result in a lower standard of living?

The answer in both cases that depends. If we create and spend money, who benefits? If we remove money via debt repayment, who has less? MMT won't give you the answer to those questions, unless we project a desired outcome over the question. But again, MMT can only tell you, in the light of the desired outcome, operationally this is the best way to achieve it (assuming we knew enough of the variables).

I apologize for being long winded, JFC is better at summing this stuff up, I only hope my verbose explanations add something.

-Cheers.
MMT also has social prescriptions. More household debt and more debt in general are not necessarily increasing our standard of living. Our problem is not too much or too little debt. Our standard of living is lowered by too much household debt which we foist on ourselves to make line go up. We need to get over this thinking.

MMT is also prescriptive as it demands we keep chasing this optimal amount of debt or scary shit happens or whatever. Nah mah dude, we dont always have to keep going into debt personally thats just consumerism.

What if we didnt have to create debts and just create the money supply we need. Not all money needs to come from debts.

It seems to me such a system is unhealthy and does not consider allocation of resources for the benefit of people but just keeping up a level of activity for some…. Reason….
 
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MMT also has social prescriptions
Disagree. People who understand MMT have prescriptions based on the goals that those people believe are worthwhile. In other words, Warren Mosler, who is widely recognized as the modern founder of MMT promotes a job guarantee. But I'd argue that's not MMT, that's applying MMT to achieve a social or political goal.

This is why you'll never hear me promoting any "school" or "theory" of money. It's just how sovereign money systems work.

More household debt and more debt in general are not necessarily increasing our standard of living.
This really comes down to 2 factors. The supply of money and the distribution. The better the distribution, the less you need.

Distribution is a HUGE problem (as a socialist I'd assume we agree?). In the US we deal with the distribution problem by creating more money to fund essential programs, especially for the poor.

Our standard of living is lowered by too much household debt which we foist on ourselves to make line go up. We need to get over this thinking.
Before I reply can you explain "make line go up"?


MMT is also prescriptive as it demands we keep chasing this optimal amount of debt or scary shit happens or whatever.
Incorrect. MMT mealy points out that in concrete terms that money creation is not the real constraint. That's it. It doesn't say you should borrow more, it mealy points out the rules of the game.

However, once you know that, and you see a place where money is desperately needed, when raising taxes or cutting sending somewhere else fails, knowing the real constrain on spending is important.

Nah mah dude, we dont always have to keep going into debt personally thats just consumerism.
That's a subjective observation, and whether I agree or not, it's immaterial to an understanding of how sovereign money works operationally.

What if we didnt have to create debts and just create the money supply we need. Not all money needs to come from debts.
I disagree.

But give me an example of money created without debt and I'll illustrate the practical problem with whatever you come up with.


It seems to me such a system is unhealthy and does not consider allocation of resources for the benefit of people but just keeping up a level of activity for some…. Reason….
Your confusing morality with economics.
 
MMT also has social prescriptions. More household debt and more debt in general are not necessarily increasing our standard of living. Our problem is not too much or too little debt. Our standard of living is lowered by too much household debt which we foist on ourselves to make line go up. We need to get over this thinking.

Increasing household debt certainly is not anything prescribed by MMT. The opposite, actually; government debt allows people to have debt-free money in the private sector.

MMT is also prescriptive as it demands we keep chasing this optimal amount of debt or scary shit happens or whatever. Nah mah dude, we dont always have to keep going into debt personally thats just consumerism.

The only prescriptions put forth by MMT are a job guarantee and maybe ZIRP. Nothing in there about optimal amounts of debt or consumerism.

What if we didnt have to create debts and just create the money supply we need. Not all money needs to come from debts.

In the case of govt.-created money, the debt is illusory. Bonds and reserves are govt. liabilities in the accounting sense only, and not true debt.

Anyway, even if the govt. supplied plenty of debt-free dollars, I can't imagine a debt-free private sector. Banks would still be in the business of lending, because few people would be able to afford houses or cars without credit. That mortgage loan is debt to the borrower no matter how it is funded.

It seems to me such a system is unhealthy and does not consider allocation of resources for the benefit of people but just keeping up a level of activity for some…. Reason….

That's capitalism, not MMT.
 
Disagree. People who understand MMT have prescriptions based on the goals that those people believe are worthwhile. In other words, Warren Mosler, who is widely recognized as the modern founder of MMT promotes a job guarantee. But I'd argue that's not MMT, that's applying MMT to achieve a social or political goal.

This is why you'll never hear me promoting any "school" or "theory" of money. It's just how sovereign money systems work.


This really comes down to 2 factors. The supply of money and the distribution. The better the distribution, the less you need.

Distribution is a HUGE problem (as a socialist I'd assume we agree?). In the US we deal with the distribution problem by creating more money to fund essential programs, especially for the poor.


Before I reply can you explain "make line go up"?



Incorrect. MMT mealy points out that in concrete terms that money creation is not the real constraint. That's it. It doesn't say you should borrow more, it mealy points out the rules of the game.

However, once you know that, and you see a place where money is desperately needed, when raising taxes or cutting sending somewhere else fails, knowing the real constrain on spending is important.


That's a subjective observation, and whether I agree or not, it's immaterial to an understanding of how sovereign money works operationally.


I disagree.

But give me an example of money created without debt and I'll illustrate the practical problem with whatever you come up with.



Your confusing morality with economics.
When you say not going into debt is scary thats just where my mind went.
 
When you say not going into debt is scary thats just where my mind went.

Businesses borrowing to increase investment is good debt; it increases incomes, and if everything goes right, it results in a sustained increase in production and a sustained increase in income. The economy has grown, and the company, even with the debt, has more income. They generally know what they are doing.

Consumers borrowing to buy a house or a car is usually good debt; it also increases income, and if everything goes right, the borrower uses that house and/or that car to save on rent or commute to work, etc. These are usually good decisions, too.

Consumers borrowing to consume is less sustainable; it increases somebody's income, but it hurts borrower's future consumption.

Business loans are a good indicator of where the economy is going. Increased borrowing is great news, decreased borrowing is bad news.

For the other types of loans, the best indicators are negative - default rates, delinquency rates, etc. You can see people struggling to pay their debts when times are bad, and loan defaults just make things worse.

Increased PS debt is generally a positive thing, but you have to break it down to see what is really happening.
 
Businesses borrowing to increase investment is good debt; it increases incomes, and if everything goes right, it results in a sustained increase in production and a sustained increase in income. The economy has grown, and the company, even with the debt, has more income. They generally know what they are doing.

Consumers borrowing to buy a house or a car is usually good debt; it also increases income, and if everything goes right, the borrower uses that house and/or that car to save on rent or commute to work, etc. These are usually good decisions, too.

Consumers borrowing to consume is less sustainable; it increases somebody's income, but it hurts borrower's future consumption.

Business loans are a good indicator of where the economy is going. Increased borrowing is great news, decreased borrowing is bad news.

For the other types of loans, the best indicators are negative - default rates, delinquency rates, etc. You can see people struggling to pay their debts when times are bad, and loan defaults just make things worse.

Increased PS debt is generally a positive thing, but you have to break it down to see what is really happening.
But also expenditures from incomes increases incomes, no debt required so not going into debt isnt the scary boogeyman.
 
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But also expenditures from incomes increases incomes, no debt required so not going into debt isnt the scary boogeyman

Only if you increase velocity. Easy enough in theory, difficult in practice. We earn paychecks on a regular basis, and we pay most bills on a regular basis, so it's not like we can just trade with each other faster, receiving income and spending it faster and faster.
 
Only if you increase velocity. Easy enough in theory, difficult in practice. We earn paychecks on a regular basis, and we pay most bills on a regular basis, so it's not like we can just trade with each other faster, receiving income and spending it faster and faster.
We dont have to. The velocity of money isnt really our problem. Distribution of goods is. This is what i mean with the obsession with line go up. Nobody needs to spend all of their income faster and faster :). That isnt really improving our quality of life.
 
We dont have to. The velocity of money isnt really our problem. Distribution of goods is. This is what i mean with the obsession with line go up. Nobody needs to spend all of their income faster and faster :). That isnt really improving our quality of life.

I agree that we have plenty to go around right now, without further growth. But capitalism depends on growth, and it also depends on some level of income disparity.

I normally talk about change within the system we have now, rather than changing the whole system. That stuff just isn't in my wheelhouse.
 
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