Signs of declining economic security

PeteEU · Jul 30, 2013

American said:
Corrected it for you.

Actually no. Some parts of some countries have massive accountability and lots of transparency.. for example the Scandinavian countries. Politicians would rarely get away with the crap that goes on in some countries. Now see I said "rarely" because it does happen.. but not on the same scale. It comes down to checks and balances in the political system.. so that no one man or small minority group can have too much influence over policy and money.

Fenton · Jul 30, 2013

TheNextEra said:
Ah yes, and Bush ran rosey budgets
right? Gimme a break.

And you do?

No, I have facts. Facts that you hate because you worhipped Bush and the right. Fact is, you think your side is the solution and YOU are part of the problem along with the Dems and Reps.

Bush spent a bunch sure, but what he spent pales in comparison to Obama's 7 TRILLION tab.....for nothing.

And yes I CAN critque posters who buy into the Generic Bush Hate, much of which is unfounded and baseless.

Ive already educated a few Liberals on the TRUE CAUSE of the Sub-Prime Collapse and reminded them of Bush's perennieal efforts to regulate a massively corrupt Fannie and Freddie ( run by Democrat Criminals.....into the ground ).

Are you saying you need to be reminded of who was ultimately responsible for pushing for the lowering of 100 year old standards based on false pretenses ?

Hey maybe YOU can answer this question since everyone I've asked prior just ignores it.

IF there was ACTUAL " discrimination", that is people being refused mortgages based on the color of their skin alone, WHY did they have to lower lending standards to combat it ?

And your statements that " Bush was just as bad " ( TOTAL Bull Sh** ) and GOP voters are as dumb as Obama voters ( there is no one dumber than a Obama voter ) are technically OPINIONS....not facts.

American · Jul 30, 2013

Fenton said:
Bush spent a bunch sure, but what he spent pales in comparison to Obama's 7 TRILLION tab.....for nothing.

And yes I CAN critque posters who buy into the Generic Bush Hate, much of which is unfounded and baseless.

Ive already educated a few Liberals on the TRUE CAUSE of the Sub-Prime Collapse and reminded them of Bush's perennieal efforts to regulate a massively corrupt Fannie and Freddie ( run by Democrat Criminals.....into the ground ).

Are you saying you need to be reminded of who was ultimately responsible for pushing for the lowering of 100 year old standards based on false pretenses ?

Hey maybe YOU can answer this question since everyone I've asked prior just ignores it.

IF there was ACTUAL " discrimination", that is people being refused mortgages based on the color of their skin alone, WHY did they have to lower lending standards to combat it ?

And your statements that " Bush was just as bad " ( TOTAL Bull Sh** ) and GOP voters are as dumb as Obama voters ( there is no one dumber than a Obama voter ) are technically OPINIONS....not facts.

The great Bush 'deregulation' myth :: Jeff Jacoby

The law causing the problem was signed by Clinton.

Bill Clinton’s deregulation myth

Another 'Deregulation' Myth - WSJ.com

The Myth of Financial Deregulation - Reason.com
http://www.aei.org/files/2009/05/06/Deregulation-under-Bush.pdf

Fenton · Jul 30, 2013

American said:
The great Bush 'deregulation' myth :: Jeff Jacoby

The law causing the problem was signed by Clinton.

Bill Clinton’s deregulation myth

Another 'Deregulation' Myth - WSJ.com

The Myth of Financial Deregulation - Reason.com
http://www.aei.org/files/2009/05/06/Deregulation-under-Bush.pdf

Nice links, I'll add them to my drop box account.

What so desperately pathetic about the False Narrative that Bush caused the Sub-Prime Collapse is it was being pushed as a way to justify Obama's failure.

Fenton · Jul 30, 2013

TheNextEra said:
There is no Bush hatred in my comments, only facts. Under Bush the economy got worse than when Clinton was president. Just as with Obama, the economy has gotten worse than Bush. I've criticzed Obama plenty.

The average "Obama" voter is no different than the average "GOP" voter. Both sides think "their" guys are the solution. They aren't, they are the problem.

I think as adults, with a wealth of information at our fingertips, that we can be very specific with respect to each presidents accomplishments and failures.

The collapse of the Sub-Prime housing market happened on Bush's watch, but wasn't Bush's fault and I've posted page after page after page of evidence to prove that assertion.

American · Jul 30, 2013

Fenton said:
Nice links, I'll add them to my drop box account.

What so desperately pathetic about the False Narrative that Bush caused the Sub-Prime Collapse is it was being pushed as a way to justify Obama's failure.

Jimmy Carter started it all.

American · Jul 30, 2013

Fenton said:
I think as adults, with a wealth of information at our fingertips, that we can be very specific with respect to each presidents accomplishments and failures.

The collapse of the Sub-Prime housing market happened on Bush's watch, but wasn't Bush's fault and I've posted page after page after page of evidence to prove that assertion.

Don't worry, the Dems will carve "It's Bush's fault." on his tombstone.

Objective Voice · Jul 30, 2013

j-mac said:
Was this the change you liberal progressives were waiting for? Was this the plan? All this talk, and excuse making for a failed liberal agenda of bringing all boats down in the name of "fairness" is bull****! We are NOT better off with Obama in office! We are NOT recovering under his administration, because that was never the plan. We are in decline, ushered in, and sped up by this progressive trash in the WH for the purpose of bringing this country down, because he can't stand what our place in the world was.

Don't agree with me? I couldn't care less! IF all you want to do is attack, then do us all a favor and don't post in this thread. If you want to discuss the conclusion of the AP report, then I am listening.

Come now, j-mac. The economy was in free-fall before Obama took office. Everyone knows this even if they're unwilling to admit it. Moreover, at each turn where the President has put forward ways to spur economic growth, the Republican opposition has done everything within its power to thwart his efforts. Look at what members of the GOP are proposed even now in advance of debt limit talks. In an effort to defund ObamaCare, they'd once again threaten to shutdown the government. You already have sequestration affecting communities all across the country. Now, they want to once again add a temporary layoff of federal employees back into the mix? And that's just the obvious aspect most people recognize comes with a gov't shutdown. I won't even try to outline other issues that would arise from this foolishness if the GOP get their way....again.

Gov. Bobby Jindal, "Republicans...just stop being stupid."

Boo Radley · Jul 30, 2013

ReformCollege said:
Causes are still causes, but comments like "that's capitalism for you" implies that such causes are the root problem, rather then the problems merely being a temporary side effect.

Not to mention, his analysis is only sufficient in its incompleteness. His examples and support lack context and seem to imply a static trend without any consideration for changing circumstances. For instance, he mentions about how cheap overseas labor has undermined the American worker. A fair point, except instead of expanding on it, he merely accepts this as a final, static conclusion. It does not seem to occur to him to take into consideration that wages are rising quite rapidly in many of these low income nations. The best evidence for this is in the explosion of the population of the global middle class, which is set to reach just a hair under 5 billion people by 2030, a 272% increase. As the world becomes increasingly wealthier, the supply of cheap labor begins to shrink to the point where jobs in the US, with its technological advantage and an abundance of cheap domestic gas, will become increasingly competitive. Evidence of this is already emerging if one just opens up his/her horizons a bit. Point is, he is taking a 2D view in a 3D world.

Maybe. But the fact is, it is an analysis as opposed to more of the same nonsense. I think that should be encouraged. :shrug:

Boo Radley · Jul 30, 2013

ReformCollege said:
Since when was hyperbole not hyperbole? There are plenty of policy issues that many conservatives disagree with Obama about. I don't understand why people act as if you could never disagree with the guy or his policies.

That right there is a strawman. No one said someone couldn't disagree with him. Good honest disagreement is encouraged by me. Birther nonsense. Marxist socialist communist atheist Muslim terrorist ****. And all the other truly stupid idiocy is something else altogether.

Fenton · Jul 31, 2013

Objective Voice said:
Come now, j-mac. The economy was in free-fall before
Obama took office. Everyone knows this even if they're unwilling to admit it. Moreover, at each turn where the President has put forward ways to spur economic growth, the Republican opposition has done everything within its power to thwart his efforts. Look at what members of the GOP are proposed even now in advance of debt limit talks. In an effort to defund ObamaCare, they'd once again threaten to shutdown the government. You already have sequestration affecting communities all across the country. Now, they want to once again add a temporary layoff of federal employees back into the mix? And that's just the obvious aspect most people recognize comes with a gov't shutdown. I won't even try to outline other issues that would arise from this foolishness if the GOP get their way....again.

Gov. Bobby Jindal, "Republicans...just stop being stupid."

Total BS....

It wasn't in " free fall" as jobs had bottomed out and started their slow climb up prior to Obama's " stimulus".

There are currently almost 40 jobs bills sitting in the Senate from the House waiting a vote that will never come.

Now please name Obama's jobs initiatives or even his plan to spur economic growth. You know the one that the GOP is supposedly stopping.....( such BS ).

The reality is after nearly 5 years, 7 TRILLION in new debt and perpetual QE the latest narrative from the left is " livable wages" for McDonalds employees.

How pathetic. It's the new narrative because Obama's economic expansion basically consist of part time fast food jobs and perpetual dependence.

Imagine that, the first Liberal President is responsible for killing the 40 hour work week.

You folks owe America a huge apology. I'll liken it to the German citizens who were forced to walk through the concentration camps after WWII.

The GOP isn't responsible for this disaster, Obama and his challenged supporters are.

zimmer · Jul 31, 2013

TheNextEra said:
Yeah, because ALL of this happened just from 2008 right? Everything was A-OK before that, no unemployment, no welfare right, no economic problems at all right? :roll:

The Great Society, The New Deal, Freddie/Fannie and forcing banks to make loans to people who could never afford them and the mass of government ooze and intrusion is largely Demokrat produced.

You folks swim in and own the HIV of Euro Socialism. What? Don't like it anymore?

zimmer · Jul 31, 2013

Higgins86 said:
Americas economic collapse has nothing to do with "European socialist policies"

And heroin has no effect on the human mind or body.

Spaceman_Spiff · Jul 31, 2013

ReformCollege said:
Causes are still causes, but comments like "that's capitalism for you" implies that such causes are the root problem, rather then the problems merely being a temporary side effect.

Not to mention, his analysis is only sufficient in its incompleteness. His examples and support lack context and seem to imply a static trend without any consideration for changing circumstances. For instance, he mentions about how cheap overseas labor has undermined the American worker. A fair point, except instead of expanding on it, he merely accepts this as a final, static conclusion. It does not seem to occur to him to take into consideration that wages are rising quite rapidly in many of these low income nations. The best evidence for this is in the explosion of the population of the global middle class, which is set to reach just a hair under 5 billion people by 2030, a 272% increase. As the world becomes increasingly wealthier, the supply of cheap labor begins to shrink to the point where jobs in the US, with its technological advantage and an abundance of cheap domestic gas, will become increasingly competitive. Evidence of this is already emerging if one just opens up his/her horizons a bit. Point is, he is taking a 2D view in a 3D world.

Before I address this post I want to clear something up about the post you originally replied to. I like capitalism and the progress that comes with it. I can see how you would come to that conclusion given the content of my post, but that is the furthest thing from how I actually feel about technology.

To respond to this text I will agree with you that my original response was oversimplified, though I do understand the situation better than you give me credit for in your reply. As you said, the situation is not static at all. When one include factors such as energy costs (one of the reasons why I support fracking is it gives the United States a competitive advantage), changes in exchange rates, the questionable nature of foreign labor, shipping costs, respsect for intellectual property, etc... that the United States is in a competitive position with the rest of the world; obviously reforms can be taken to further improve that, but that is a discussion for another time. Those reasons and more are why some companies have already returned to the United States.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the constructive criticism.

j-mac · Jul 31, 2013

TheNextEra said:
I live comfortably to my standards yes. Meaning I have paid my debt, don't acrue anything I can't pay with cash, and pay my bills. I don't live above my means.

Ok, and with any surplus you have, do you give it to those less fortunate than yourself? or do you save it?

j-mac · Jul 31, 2013

samsmart said:
It's kinda tough to put the blame of less economic security solely on the Obama administration when Congress won't even pass the kind of laws that President Obama would want in order to deal with it.

So Congress is just as much to blame as President Obama is.

I'll give you that to an extent Sam...But, this president has shown that when congress won't pass what he wants, he is perfectly fine with unconstitutionally going around them with regulation, and fiat pronouncements....Do you think that a constitutional republic like ours can survive with the freedoms we have when the Chief Executive decides that he can just put into place what he can't get passed?

American · Jul 31, 2013

j-mac said:
Yeah, plus I seem to be reading that we would be doing so much better if the wealthy, and corporations would only stop being "greedy" and give up their profits to those people that had no stake in creating that wealth, as though they are entitled to it.

Q2 US GDP First Reading - Business Insider

Here's more staggering 1.3% performance by the US economy. They use the word "crushing", can you believe it? Wow, I just can't wait to brag to my mother. :roll:

We're just kicking the world's ass, and taking names.

TheNextEra · Jul 31, 2013

Fenton said:
Bush spent a bunch sure, but what he spent pales in comparison to Obama's 7 TRILLION tab.....for nothing.

Which was more than Clinton spent. Stop buying into the whole "Republicans do no wrong" attitude you seem to exhibit. You blame everyone but the GOP. That is the first sign of arrogance on your part. BOTH sides have hurt this country, but you remain blind to that fact. You keep drinking the GOP koolaid of "blame the Dems for everything" and take NO responsibility.

Fenton said:
And yes I CAN critque posters who buy into the Generic Bush Hate, much of which is unfounded and baseless.

You have no room to talk and No, none of my comments are based in Bush hatred. Try again son.

Fenton said:
Ive already educated a few Liberals on the TRUE CAUSE of the Sub-Prime Collapse and reminded them of Bush's perennieal efforts to regulate a massively corrupt Fannie and Freddie ( run by Democrat Criminals.....into the ground ).

And under Bush the GOP did nothing. They could have easily stopped EVERYTHING, but they were too busy trying to make gay marriage and flag burning federally illegal instead.

Fenton said:
Are you saying you need to be reminded of who was ultimately responsible for pushing for the lowering of 100 year old standards based on false pretenses ?

ADo you need to be reminded the GOP could have stopped all that?

Fenton said:
Hey maybe YOU can answer this question since everyone I've asked prior just ignores it.

IF there was ACTUAL " discrimination", that is people being refused mortgages based on the color of their skin alone, WHY did they have to lower lending standards to combat it ?

There WAS dscrimination and it was proven, however, much like everything the government does it doesn't swing things small. It swings wide and goes from one extreme to another.

Fenton said:
And your statements that " Bush was just as bad " ( TOTAL Bull Sh** ) and GOP voters are as dumb as Obama voters ( there is no one dumber than a Obama voter ) are technically OPINIONS....not facts.

Sorry, but the irresponsibility WAS just as bad with Bush. Sorry you don't like facts that counter your god worship of Bush. I've criticized Obma plenty, have you with Bush? No.

YOU and your kind that only blame the "other" side are the problem. The Dem/Rep duopoly needs to be done away with and if your too ignorant to realize that YOU are the problem.

TheNextEra · Jul 31, 2013

Fenton said:
I think as adults, with a wealth of information at our fingertips, that we can be very specific with respect to each presidents accomplishments and failures.

The collapse of the Sub-Prime housing market happened on Bush's watch, but wasn't Bush's fault and I've posted page after page after page of evidence to prove that assertion.

Yeah and the GOP could have done something about it, they didn't. They were too busy with trying to make gay marriage and flag burning FEDERALLY illegal and propping up Homeland Security (a joke). You know, making the federal government larger.

I've criticized Obama plenty as well as the Dems. Let's see if you have ANY honesty to do the same with the GOP or Bush. I doubt you have any integrity at all.

TheNextEra · Jul 31, 2013

zimmer said:
The Great Society, The New Deal, Freddie/Fannie and forcing banks to make loans to people who could never afford them and the mass of government ooze and intrusion is largely Demokrat produced.

You folks swim in and own the HIV of Euro Socialism. What? Don't like it anymore?

Sorry I don't "swim" in Euro socialism, so why don't you peddle your partisan crap to someone who actually might by it.

TheNextEra · Jul 31, 2013

j-mac said:
Ok, and with any surplus you have, do you give it to those less fortunate than yourself? or do you save it?

Both. I give plenty to charities in time volunteering and money. I am also a life-time member of the VFW and do volunteer effort there as well. Maybe you would like to share with us how charitable you are with your money and time.

minnie616 · Jul 31, 2013

j-mac said:
Ok, and with any surplus you have, do you give it to those less fortunate than yourself? or do you save it?

We save one third of personal income and give the rest away.
Some goes to employees and about 20 to 25 percent goes anonomously to our favorite charities.

We feel a gift is a gift.

Fenton · Jul 31, 2013

TheNextEra said:
Which was more than Clinton spent. Stop
buying into the whole "Republicans do no wrong" attitude you seem to exhibit. You blame everyone but the GOP. That is the first sign of arrogance on your part. BOTH sides have hurt this country, but you remain blind to that fact. You keep drinking the GOP koolaid of "blame the Dems for everything" and take NO responsibility.

You have no room to talk and No, none of my comments are based in Bush hatred. Try again son.

And under Bush the GOP did nothing. They could have easily stopped EVERYTHING, but they were too busy trying to make gay marriage and flag burning federally illegal instead.

ADo you need to be reminded the GOP could have stopped all that?

There WAS dscrimination and it was proven, however, much like everything the government does it doesn't swing things small. It swings wide and goes from one extreme to another.

Sorry, but the irresponsibility WAS just as bad with Bush. Sorry you don't like facts that counter your god worship of Bush. I've criticized Obma plenty, have you with Bush? No.

YOU and your kind that only blame the "other" side are the problem. The Dem/Rep duopoly needs to be done away with and if your too ignorant to realize that YOU are the problem.

No, there was NO systemic discrimination in the Mortgage industry other than the discrimination thats necessary for lenders to remain in bussines.

What's your proof of Racial Discrimination ? The Boston Fed report that was ordered by Clinton that was filled with glaring mistakes ?

That didn't take into account the lenders net worth, their job history, THEIR CREDIT ???!!

Ricky Danger's ( my new nick name for Clinton ) economy was, again the result of a couple of bubbles. The Stock Bubble and the Housing Bubble.

Bush inherited the Collapse of Clintons stock bubble and the effects of Clintons Sub-Prime Housing Bubble as his Presidency wrapped up in 2008.

To you that means Bush was a horrible President. To the rest of us, who are completely capable of intelligent objective analysis it means he had to offset the failures of his predecessors trickery and incompetence.

In retrospect it would have been far easier on your average American if we hadn't elected such a low life in 1992.

TheNextEra · Jul 31, 2013

Fenton said:
Bush inherited the Collapse of Clintons stock bubble and the effects of Clintons Sub-Prime Housing Bubble as his Presidency wrapped up in 2008.

LOL I see, so when Bush inherits something, it isn't his fault, but if Obama inherits something its his fault. Got it, what a partisan hack you are.

Fenton said:
To you that means Bush was a horrible President. To the rest of us, who are completely capable of intelligent objective analysis it means he had to offset the failurd of his predecessors trickery and incompetence.

No Bush was a horrible president for other reasons. However, he and the GOP COULD do something about that if they wanted to. They just wanted to focus on Iraq, flag burning amendments and anti-gay marriage amendments instead. Go cry me a partisan hack river.

Fenton said:
In retrospect it would have been far easier on your average American if we hadn't elected such a low life in 1992.

Yeah, because the GOP can do NO wrong in your eyes. You are indeed part of the problem with this country.

Fenton · Jul 31, 2013

TheNextEra said:
LOL I see, so when Bush inherits
something, it isn't his fault, but if Obama inherits something its his fault. Got it, what a partisan hack you are.

No Bush was a horrible president for other reasons. However, he and the GOP COULD do something about that if they wanted to. They just wanted to focus on Iraq, flag burning amendments and anti-gay marriage amendments instead. Go cry me a partisan hack river.

Yeah, because the GOP can do NO wrong in your eyes. You are indeed part of the problem with this country.

I've clearly stated on this forum multiple times that Barrak DID inherit the effects of the collapse of Clintons mandated Housing Bubble.

But C'mon, it's been 5 years. The excuses and blame are just Childish.

The least of our electorate thought it a wise decision to elect a incompetent to deal with a collapse that was so systemic and so entrenched into the markets that it had world wide implications.

And he did a disasterous job. He made it much worse.

What did you folks expect. Obama was a big part of the sub-prime bubble before he ever entered the Senate.

He used to sue banks for " discrimination " as a plaintiffs attorney in Washington.

The GOP ? No they're not perfect, but blame them for what they're repsonsible for.

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