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Sickness or Society?

Joined
Jun 24, 2017
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Location
665 miles off the East Coast
Gender
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Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Thought it'd be nice to stir the metaphorical pot for a bit, so here's an article on what is being referred to now as Gender Dysphoria.

As a Libertarian I don't really have much of an opinion on this issue, I think that people should be able to do more or less what they want with themselves, withing reason of course, assuming they aren't hurting others.

Nevertheless, I am interested in hearing other people's opinions on this particular topic.

​Thoughts?
 
I think I'm a bunny rabbit...therefore I am...:bunny:
 

Well, in terms of my own personal opinion on transgender people, I've got no problem with them. I have no issue respecting the pronouns which they choose to identify by.

I see no reason to not accept transgender people for who they are. And especially me, because me being gay and having experienced homophobia to a degree in my life, it would be ridiculous for me to hold some sort of prejudice against trans people.
 
It's mental illness, and these people need psychological help, not to be enabled.
 

I have no problem with transgendered people. Don't care one way or the other. I do have a problem with the pronoun thing, because lets face it, its hard enough trying to figure out who's what. I am not about to spend my time figuring out somebodies peccadilloes when I don't much care in the first place. If they are offended because I said the wrong thing, too damn bad. It's like the stuck up snotty bitches who insist upon being called doctor, even if their reputation doesn't precede them. Most doctors don't care if they are called doctor or not. I imagine its the same with transgendered folks.
 

Is it really that much of an inconvenience to refer to a trans person by the pronouns that they identify with? It's not to me. And I don't think you can really compare a doctor's title to gendered pronouns.

I just don't want to come off as an asshole. If someone wants me to refer to them as a he or a she, then I'll do that.
 
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It's mental illness, and these people need psychological help, not to be enabled.

Can you post some links to published literature for this - Thanks.
 

As you said, I have no problem with what people do as long as they harm no one else.
 
As you said, I have no problem with what people do as long as they harm no one else.

That's the part where most people differ. Many people see no problem with hard drug use using this same reasoning. However, what is the harm to a community of most people start using hard drugs? Does it make raising children more difficult or easier? Is that a harm to parents?

We can't accept just a narrow definition of direct harm while the deterioration of social capital harms all of us.
 

I don't mind referring to someone as a he if he identifies as such or she if she identifies as such, however the game of labels and pronouns gets annoyingly complicated for some. At some point you got to be content with knowing who you are and identifying as what you are without expecting the world to always play nice.
 

If you're referring to the "ze" pronouns and such, and the numerous other silly genders people identify as (like Demisexual), then I agree.
 
Thanks, I'll read it. It may be to early to say this but one study from 6 yrs ago doesn't give me much info.

It doesn't take long to read. I'll quote all you need to read.

 

Doing hard drugs alters the mind and tends to result in the drug taker doing things they would not normally do, which in some cases will harm someone. Someone living their life as whatever gender they identify with doesn't. That comparison is way off.
 

@ blue highlight: Why do you feel the need to state that? It's already legal. I think a man should be able to womanize, like Bill Clinton, receiving oral sex from a younger woman under the desk while he is still married, without that being criminalized in the United States. I think marijuana should be legal. I think IV heroin use ought be decriminalized. And I really think prostitution should be legalized. And I'm more or less persuaded cosmetic "sex changes" ought be legal--as they are.

But let's take the laws involved in prescribing testosterone and anabolic steroids. Doctors ought be legally able too--as they once were--to prescribe them to skinny boys and men that are psychologically devastated by their size. So that if they want to use them they can from a doctor (rather than on the unregulated black market) and gain muscle mass and even facial hair. Just like they can prescribe it to girls and women to gain muscle mass and grow facial hair.

Notice I never said whether I think x choice ought be made (e.g., the choice to inject heroin into your veins or the choice to commit adultery).

You can legalize something like cigarettes without the US Government and every non-thinking American assuming therefore you need to be out promoting Americans doing such if they are considering it.

Just because I think IV heroin use out be at minimum decriminalized does not mean I'll be cheer-leading for a 12 year-old boy to go out and inject heroin into his arm because he kind of feels like doing so. Actually, the US Government allows cigarettes to be legal while simultaneously waging a propaganda war in the US to discourage Americans from making the choice to smoke.



Amazing, testosterone/anabolic steroids is not killing her:




Amazing, female hormones are not killing him:



Many years ago when I was younger I was illegally injecting testosterone into me. I was using Mexican Sten. That stuff is incredible. No amount of "right eating" can get you the gains as fast, dramatically, as taking testosterone or anabolic steroids. But I don't recommend taking them for several reasons.

Anabolic steroids were invented to reduce the negative side affects of testosterone while still allowing for the muscular building effects testosterone has. I say that because what medical doctors prescribe to women transitioning to men is harder on the body than anabolic steroids. What I was taking was harder than anabolic steroids.

And due to Congress being lawyers and playing politics it is now the case a lot of atheletes that are deep into steroids know more about these substances than medical doctors. I mean they know the best ways they should be taken whereas most medical doctors are clueless--except when it comes to prescribing them to women or girls.

I had to explain to a female medical doctor at the VA Hospital what Mexican Sten was because she was clueless about it (more than me and I don't know much about it). It is--or was--a *very* well known testosterone to take in the culture of steroids for those trying to gain mass. But a medical doctor never even heard of it. Thanks to Congress. You know... thanks to lawyers that are elected as politicians. A bunch of ambulance chasing liars.
 

Deviant sexual lifestyles lead to higher STD rates in a population. That's a harm. Their suicide attempts are also a harm as we're paying for their healthcare. So no, you can't argue that there's no harm associated with the practice.
 
If you're referring to the "ze" pronouns and such, and the numerous other silly genders people identify as (like Demisexual), then I agree.

So, you do draw a line?
 
Deviant sexual lifestyles lead to higher STD rates in a population. That's a harm. Their suicide attempts are also a harm as we're paying for their healthcare. So no, you can't argue that there's no harm associated with the practice.

Stop repressing your true sexuality. :2wave:
 
So, you do draw a line?

Depends. If I know someone personally, and they want me to refer to them as a "ze" or whatever, then I'll do that. But I find it ridiculous when some people try to force that, as if you should always use gender neutral pronouns, in order to not offend anyone who might not identify as a he or a she (which is basically the kind of mindset I have an issue with.
 
Deviant sexual lifestyles lead to higher STD rates in a population. That's a harm. Their suicide attempts are also a harm as we're paying for their healthcare. So no, you can't argue that there's no harm associated with the practice.

Unprotected sex leads to a higher STD rate in any population, doesn't matter what kind of sex. The number of suicides are probably the same as any persecuted group. Maybe if people like you would stop doing that?? Veterans have a high suicide rate, should we get rid of them too?
 
It's mental illness, and these people need psychological help, not to be enabled.

Okay, it hardly convinces me that it is a mental illness. First problem: "Setting: Sweden, 1973-2003." Hardly relevant to today and to the States. Second, they studied the mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons. After I did not see anything about mental illness causing gender dysphoria.

I did find these interesting though:

"Despite the long history of this treatment[reassignment surgery], however, outcome data regarding mortality and psychiatric morbidity are scant."

"Data is inconsistent with respect to psychiatric morbidity post sex reassignment."

"The authors concluded though that the evidence base for sex reassignment “is of very low quality due to the serious methodological limitations of included studies.”"

All in all pretty weak backup to the bold statement of it being a mental illness that needs help.
 

You're not above calling someone a simple pronoun, which is a sign of intelligence. Don't let them pigeon hole you, because you're indescribable and don't let them say different.

 
It doesn't take long to read. I'll quote all you need to read.

Yeah, I read that. That's "after the fact" and does not say what you wanted it to say.
 

Wait... I thought that was the reason Congress made it illegal for medical doctors to prescribe testosterone to boys and men if they wanted to gain muscle and/or increase their potential to grow facial hair (in the case of those men who can't really grow facial hair)? You know... the whole "roid rage" thing?

Also, alcohol makes people do things they otherwise would not do. Including raping women or even sexually molesting their own children. Or for some they wake up with a blackout and find all sorts of stolen goods in their apartments.

Bigger Stronger Faster* (2008) Official Trailer #1 - Steroids Documentary Movie HD

BIGGER STRONGER FASTER* deleted scene: "Roid Rage"

I took 3cc's of Mexican Sten injections into the muscle of my butt 3 times a week I think it was, back when I was in the US Marines. I only did it for a short period (that one, because later on I used another type for a short time as well) and I was already back from the 1st Gulf War. I got brought in by another member of my company. Then I discovered, once in that circle, that about 25% of my company was on them.

And 3cc's I later found out was a lot for a first time user. Like crazy " a lot." And I never had a roid rage.





Here is the media scare about steroids, which testosterone falls under that umbrella ban (I could have gotten a court martial if I had gotten caught, and even in the civilian world I believe it was felony crime), and testosterone carries all the "worst" effects of steroids like acne, rage etc. But they prescribe it to females and it magically becomes "healthy" and no longer "mind altering" and "bad."

"Bigger, Faster, Stronger" - Truth about Steroids

It's the marijuana story (refer madness) of horror that every American believes.
 
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