Should we change our electoral system?[W:319]

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

You can prove that by simply posting others of your posts regarding the EC, of the same volume and vehemence that you have displayed in the last month or so.

We both know you have not given near the effort to undermine the EC that you have since Hillary lost.

The complete and total responsibility is upon you to prove that your allegation that I have changed my position and that claim is then supported by the evidence that you dig up. That is your job and your responsibility to gather the evidence to support your claim that you have already made about me. Get this straight - this is not an inquisition or a Star chamber and I am under not the slightest responsibility to raise even a little finger to help you crucify me. Its all on you .

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

I don't care if you like my position on the EC or not. That is your right. But unless you have evidence that I am lying about it - do not insult me by pretending you know what my real position is just so you can avoid dealing with what I actually have said.



That is the BS position you took. Stop it.

Up until the 2016 election, I don't recall ever hearing a word about your dislike of the electoral college. Your primary complaint was that the republicans were not falling in line to nominate John Kasich to run against Hillary Von Pantsuit.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

It's also a description. We are not one state like Germany or Italy. We are 50 united states. Each of those 50 states maintains a level of sovereignity. There are certain powers enumerated to the federal government and there are certain powers enumerated to the states. Hopefully at some point in your life, for the sake of your own obvious stress levels, you will accept that and stop whining about the 2016 election and start thinking about the 2020 and 2024 elections. Before you can win, you have to learn to accept defeat. Some of your librul brethren are still rhetorically fighting the 2000 election.

We are one nation, indivisible. Get over it. Accept it.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Up until the 2016 election, I don't recall ever hearing a word about your dislike of the electoral college. Your primary complaint was that the republicans were not falling in line to nominate John Kasich to run against Hillary Von Pantsuit.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-c...al-college-7.html?highlight=electoral+college

December of 2011 - and this was six years ago and notice I disagreed with a poster who said the EC was Obama's only chance at re-election and I should support it.

Here is my definitive statement

I do not care if you think it is the only chance Obama has. The system is wrong and needs to be replaced with the first place finisher in the vote of the American people elected as President of the United States.

You could have done a search to find that as easy as I did as it only took less than 90 seconds.

and this is from December of 2010 - a year before even that one

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-e...ct-elections.html?highlight=electoral+college

The USA is a representative democracy with Constitutional provisions in which the people elect representatives who then make the decisions of government for them.

A direct democracy is where the people are the government, pass the laws themselves and administer them themselves.

You do not go far enough in describing our current government and you go way too far in describing what would happen if the EC were abolished since it would not change our form of government in any structural way. The change would be in the election method for President whose job would not be changed Constitutionally.

Next time before you tell somebody what they believe- you may want to find out first before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

I have the decency to tell the truth. I have the decency NOT to shut up when I see something wrong. Your obsession with the EC is a recent event and is driven by an election loss. You should examine the candidate that lost, not the election. Be logical, be rational, examine the flawed candidate your party nominated and be honest with yourself.

The bugs you see in the Electoral College are features not bugs, the founding fathers did not want direct democracy, even in the election of the President.

Exactly right. We reflected when so-called conservative candidates lost. The reason being that the republican party has a habit of running old establishment "It's my turn" candidates instead of actually seeking to nominate a candidate that appeals to the base. The populist movement of the 2016 election changed that. The democrats historically have been guilty of the same. They just did not get the message in the 2016 race and nominated non charismatic establishment politician with a closet full of political skeletons and scandals. That's why they lost. Unfortunately haymarket simply does not want to reflect inward and consider the real reasons his party lost....which has nothing to do with the electoral college. Had it been a popular vote only election, Hillary likely would have still lost as Trump would have campaigned accordingly.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

The opposite is true.
Densely populated states with a lot of illegal migrants and corrupt politicians can easily cheat, and that is the reason why Trump did not win the popular vote.

California is the biggest example of that. They issue drivers licenses to known illegal immigrants. With a drivers license or state ID card, there is not much that can stop you from voting illegally. That's why the democrats are in such a hurry for a comprehensive immigration bill loaded with amnesty. They want to repeat their California success in other southwestern states. One of their biggest targets is Texas.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

We are one nation, indivisible. Get over it. Accept it.

And we are also 50 individual states united. Get over it. Trump is your president and mine. Accept it.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

The complete and total responsibility is upon you to prove that your allegation that I have changed my position and that claim is then supported by the evidence that you dig up. That is your job and your responsibility to gather the evidence to support your claim that you have already made about me. Get this straight - this is not an inquisition or a Star chamber and I am under not the slightest responsibility to raise even a little finger to help you crucify me. Its all on you .

Nope. You are asking me to prove a negative. Logic fail. Please post some quotes where you were complaining about the electoral college before the election. We both know that is going to fail to compare with the numerous posts and the fervor you are displaying now. I don't even need to prove it, its self evident to anyone that has been paying attention to the forum at all.

I am not engaging in any sort of mock trial, its just me, I have no authority. But by continuing to deny this particular line you are making yourself look very foolish. You know I am just speaking the simple truth regarding your postings about the EC. Just move on.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-c...al-college-7.html?highlight=electoral+college

December of 2011 - and this was six years ago and notice I disagreed with a poster who said the EC was Obama's only chance at re-election and I should support it.

Here is my definitive statement



You could have done a search to find that as easy as I did as it only took less than 90 seconds.

and this is from December of 2010 - a year before even that one

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-e...ct-elections.html?highlight=electoral+college



Next time before you tell somebody what they believe- you may want to find out first before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.

I am not impressed. I have only been on the talkboard since 2014. I can buy that you were against the electoral college in 2010 and 2011, however you were not anywhere close to as obsessed with it as you have been since your heroine lost the 2016 election. My bet is that in 2010 and 2011, you were still licking your wounds over the 2000 election. And I am quite sure that if Gore had won the electoral college and lost the popular vote, you would have sung the praises of the electoral college all the way up to and past your 2010 and 2011 posts. Same goes with the 2016 election. If Hillary had won the electoral college vote and lost the popular vote, you would have no issues today with the electoral college. You are fooling nobody.

 

[slick]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

I live in NY so my vote never counts. It would be great if NYC which has about 60% of the people received 60% of the electoral votes
& tje rest of the state 40% of the electoral votes & then my vote may possibly matter. Otherwise leave our presidential electoral process
alone.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

The functional rationales for the EC (offered after the fact to help win ratification) are spelled out in Federalist No. 68. None apply to today's use of the EC.



There's no "if" here, unless we're no longer considering Madison's notes on the workings of the convention to be the definitive account. As for abolishing it during Reconstruction, what constituency was there for doing so? (Indeed, the EC is effectively what ended Reconstruction, following the debacle in 1876.)

Sigh, you keep ignoring other reasons pointed out. Excluding arguments you haven't refuted by ignoring them is not refuting them.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-c...al-college-7.html?highlight=electoral+college

December of 2011 - and this was six years ago and notice I disagreed with a poster who said the EC was Obama's only chance at re-election and I should support it.

Here is my definitive statement



You could have done a search to find that as easy as I did as it only took less than 90 seconds.

and this is from December of 2010 - a year before even that one

https://www.debatepolitics.com/us-e...ct-elections.html?highlight=electoral+college



Next time before you tell somebody what they believe- you may want to find out first before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it.

So...your problem with the EC is more butthurt from Bush? So your principles remain sore loser-ism. Thanks for proving it

Your problems with the EC are not principled, but about power.

 

[Greenbeard]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Sigh, you keep ignoring other reasons pointed out. Excluding arguments you haven't refuted by ignoring them is not refuting them.

I'm primarily interested in refuting the false historical arguments that people invent and then incuriously project upon the past. The contemporary rationales and political reasons for creating the EC no longer apply today.

If you want to move on to imaginative retconned (but ahistorical) justifications for the EC, okay. Which do you find compelling?

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

I'm primarily interested in refuting the false historical arguments that people invent and then incuriously project upon the past. The contemporary rationales and political reasons for creating the EC no longer apply today.

If you want to move on to imaginative retconned (but ahistorical) justifications for the EC, okay. Which do you find compelling?

So you believe History.Com is inventing them. I don't think the justifications are coming from that direction.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

And we are also 50 individual states united. Get over it. Trump is your president and mine. Accept it.

Who gave up sovereignty to become a nation with a constitution.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

I am not impressed.

It proves you were wrong in what you said about my position being crafted just for the Clinton- Trump election. Man up and admit it for heavens sakes.

here was you statement about me

Quote Originally Posted by ObamacareFail View Post
Up until the 2016 election, I don't recall ever hearing a word about your dislike of the electoral college. Your primary complaint was that the republicans were not falling in line to nominate John Kasich to run against Hillary Von Pantsuit.

I just gave you quotes from 2010 (when I joined) and 2011 - many years before the 2016 election.

You were wrong and I proved it with your own words and my past statements here.

You lost. Take it like a man.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

So...your problem with the EC is more butthurt from Bush? So your principles remain sore loser-ism. Thanks for proving it

Your problems with the EC are not principled, but about power.

Two words. Seven letters. Figure it out.

You are lying. Here again is my statement from 2011 when another poster cautioned me to support the EC purely for political reasons since it was the only chance Obama had to win reelection in their opinion. I rejected that even though I support Obama.

I do not care if you think it is the only chance Obama has. The system is wrong and needs to be replaced with the first place finisher in the vote of the American people elected as President of the United States.

I proved you wrong . Man up and take it. Or is that too much to ask of you?

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Two words. Seven letters. Figure it out.

You are lying. Here again is my statement from 2011 when another poster cautioned me to support the EC purely for political reasons since it was the only chance Obama had to win reelection in their opinion. I rejected that even though I support Obama.



I proved you wrong . Man up and take it. Or is that too much to ask of you?

2 posts in 6 years versus the half a hundred posts in the past 6 months. You proved me right, its butthurt, sourgrape political power games.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

2 posts in 6 years versus the half a hundred posts in the past 6 months. You proved me right, its butthurt, sourgrape political power games.

The two posts I gave you are enough in and of themselves to prove your claim about me is wrong and a lie.

But why stop there? If you do a search of ELECTORAL COLLEGE and my screen name you will see hundreds of posts on the matter year after year after year for the entire time I have been here which goes back to 2010.

You were proved wrong you should simply man up and admit it.

 

[BillRM]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

As this last election is a very strong indication that the founding fathers was once more right in not trusting the people to directly pick the president I would suggest dusting off the electoral college to function as the body that does decided who will be president as it was first design to do.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

As this last election is a very strong indication that the founding fathers was once more right in not trusting the people to directly pick the president I would suggest dusting off the electoral college to function as the body that does decided who will be president as it was first design to do.

If the Founders were right, why then was the mechanism they gave us NOT USED as envisioned by those same Founders by the electors in the states in their 2016 vote to install Trump into the presidency?

 

[BillRM]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

If the Founders were right, why then was the mechanism they gave us NOT USED as envisioned by those same Founders by the electors in the states in their 2016 vote to install Trump into the presidency?

That is my point if we are going to keep the electoral college it should be kept as it was first design to function as a body of selected men that meet and decide who will be president among themselves similar in concept to a grand jury.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

That is my point if we are going to keep the electoral college it should be kept as it was first design to function as a body of selected men that meet and decide who will be president among themselves similar in concept to a grand jury.

Thank you for further explaining that.

I understand the sense of that since the EC no longer functions as the Founders envisioned and has failed to do what Hamilton explained as one of its chief safeguards in Federalist paper 68. However, is that the system you feel should elect a President?

 

[Nuber]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

Very well stated. I don't disagree. Those are historical facts.

It doesn't change the fact that more people than not lost in this past election. There is something fundamentally wrong with that happening.

And it would appear that we will simply fundamentally disagree. That is OK, if we were all the same life would be rather boring.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Re: Should we change our electoral system?

The two posts I gave you are enough in and of themselves to prove your claim about me is wrong and a lie.

But why stop there? If you do a search of ELECTORAL COLLEGE and my screen name you will see hundreds of posts on the matter year after year after year for the entire time I have been here which goes back to 2010.

You were proved wrong you should simply man up and admit it.

Nah, not even, the amount and intensity of the posts was part of what I was saying. I was proven right because 2 posts versus how many since the election?