Should the US stop supporting Israel?

[Gina]

Moderator's Warning:

Closed for moderation review.

 

[Gina]

Moderator's Warning:

Reopened: Moving to proper location. Note, this is now in the Israel/Palestine sub forum and as such is subject to the Martial Law ruleset of the Middle East forum. Please review those rules before posting further. Thank you.

 

[MildSteel]

Actually this specific example is of the relationship between Bush and Rice, not between Israeli officials.

Actually you are wrong. Olmert is the one who publicly stated that Bush shamed Rice, not Bush. The disrespect here is that Olmert, PUBLICLY, bragged about how, because of his direct intervention, Rice was shamed. Bush did not make a speech where he publicly bragged about how he shamed Rice. Olmert made the public statement.

Regardless, I could give you a handful of examples of British and American officials disrespecting each other, that doesn't mean that the general relationship between the two sides isn't good, so I don't think your arguments hold any water here.

Give me just one example of a foreign official publicly stating of how a US official, as highly placed as the Secretary of State of the United States, was shamed because of an action that the foreign official took.

I already stated that Israel is not the reason for the hostility towards America.
You argue like a child.

You have stated it and you are wrong. Just because you state something, that does not mean that it is true. I have given evidence to back my claim. Furthermore, it is a fact that people do not like having their houses bombed and family killed by people that they have done nothing to. Not only that, but any humane person would not like to see it happen to such a person. Sure Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians are not the only reason for Arab and Muslim hatred of the US, but it is surely a major bone of contention. Furthermore it is something that we can and should do something about.

You don't go to wars over nothing, especially not with your allies.
If you want to go to war with Israel so badly I'm afraid you're gonna have to do it on your own.

You can keep up the sophistry campaign, but sorry, it's not going to work. A parent punishes a child, not because he wants to, but to correct the consequences of bad behavior. Personally, I honestly believe that such a move by the US would not result in a war. I'm pretty sure of it. The leadership of Israel would recognize the futility of such a war and accept the establishment of a Palestinian state by the US without the need for a fight. It is my hope that we could continue to live as friends.

According to..?

I am saying it based on the following detrimental effects that are manifest as a result of the unconditional support the US is giving to Israel:

1. Because the US provides military aid and vetoes UN Security Council resolutions that rebuke Israeli aggression towards the Palestinians, there is the perception among Arabs, Muslims, and other people around the world that the US supports the slaughter of innocent people in Gaza by Israel. This results in hostility being directed at the US and US personnel worldwide that increases the likelihood of the US being exposed to terrorist attacks, thus diluting efforts to combat terrorism.

2. It is hampering efforts to create a more constructive relationship with various Arab and Muslim countries where Israeli actions are viewed in a hostile light. Thus the ability of the US to conduct foreign policy is being obstructed as a result.

3. Because of our support of Israel in it's human rights abuses against the Palestinians, it makes it more difficult to stand up to human rights abuses.

When you're saying 'us' you really mean yourself. Majority of Americans are pro-Israeli and support its policies.
Let alone the fact that perhaps only some hundreds of people in the US will agree with an American war on Israel, so the general 'us' of yours is really a tiny, irrelevant minority of warmongering individuals who happen to hate Israel as much as you do and want to 'put it in its place'.

No, I meant exactly what I said, and again, this sophistry of putting words in my mouth is not going to work. I have not said I want to go to war with Israel, neither have I said I hate Israel. Again, what I am saying is the that US should occupy Gaza and the West Bank and impose a Palestinian state there. Furthermore I am saying that if Israel wants to fight us as a result, then we should do them the honor, and beat them. But I really don't think they would fight with us if we did that, realizing that would be futile.

He is working towards the two-states solution so your arguments are irrelevant.

He may want people to believe he is working for a two state solution, but it is a fact that his Likud party has openly expressed hostility to the creation of a Palestinian state. So when he makes proposals that he knows the Palestinians will never accept, there is every reason to believe that his efforts are not sincere.

 

[MildSteel]

Sophistry?

Your entire thread here is based upon an extraordinarily stupid fallacy, namely that because of the Arab hatred of Jews, in order to placate the Arabs, we should abandon the Jews.

Your response here is based on the stupid fallacy YOU BELIEVE that I am saying that SIMPLY to placate the Arabs we should stop supporting Israel. It is not simply to placate the Arabs, it is because it is hampering the US in pursuit of it's foreign policy goals, it is unnecessarily increasing the likelihood that US citizens will be exposed to acts of terror worldwide, it is hampering our ability to stand up against human rights abuses, and because it is an obstacle in our efforts to combat eradicate the causes of terrorism.

You have even go so far in this regard as to validate the views of Osama Bin Laden.

No I have not validated the views of Osama Bin Laden. Rather it is you, because of your support of Israel's killing innocent Palestinian children who is validating the views of Osama Bin Laden. Why are you supporting Bin Laden in this way?

Your subsequent postings have been absolutely littered with appeals to popularity, appeals to authority and other unintelligent fallacies that act as an attempt to justify your hatred based upon the hatreds of others.

Your post is based on hatred of me because I have said the US should stop supporting Israel and should establish a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. Because of that hatred, you have been so ridiculous as to conflate my position with support of Osama Bin Laden, so that you can appeal to hatred of Osama Bin Laden to smear me. It is you who are giving support to Bin Laden, because the death and abuse of innocent Palestinians by Israel is a recruiting tool for al Qaieda and other similarly barbaric people. Why do you want to continue to support Bin Laden in this way.

Meanwhile, what you attack as "sophistry" is actually the moral reasoning you lack the capability to understand and cannot counter using any reason of your own.

Sophistry is sophistry. And one technique that people practice sophistry use is that they tell the person what they are saying. The sophistry is that my position that the US should establish a Palestinian state is distorted through sophistry to mean that I hate and want war with Israel, when actually the opposite is true. So yep, that's sophistry, and it's not good sophistry at that.

 

[MildSteel]

I respectfully disagree. And I also agree. Surely, we are capable of doing what we need to do without Israel. This is true.

But we are connected at the hip. Any elected politician will adopt an unconditional support for Israel. I would go as far to say that no one gets elected to the highest offices in our land without jewish support. That means the politician has to adopt a "connected at the hip," policy to get elected. Even when a politician dares to venture towards any criticism of Israel, you will note that they usually preface with the old, "Israel is our friend and allie and always will be," disclaimer before saying anything negative.

Although your observation of the current political climate is correct, I say that we are not connected at the hip precisely because of the fact that we can do what we need to do in the Middle East without Israel. If we were actually dependent on them, them we would be connected at the hip.

The political climate can be changed by proper leadership. If Israel keeps ignoring our appeals on settlements, continues to publicly disrespect our leaders, and continues to engage in the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians, it will be possible for strong leadership to change the political environment that you refer to such that it becomes possible for the US to do what it needs to do to move our foreign policy forward by creating a Palestinian state.

 

[MildSteel]

I literally laid out each of your positions and showed how you had rapidly attempted to change them. But whatever.

I am taking the time to respond to this nonsense so that no one will be confused. You are wrong, my position did not change. Here's your response:

Oh really. Let's see. the original claim by you was that they are our enemies because of our support for Israel. I pointed out to you that they considered us their enemy prior to the existence of Israel. You shifted to "well, they hate us more because of our support to Israel".

OK, let's see then. This post is filled with flaws. To say that they hate us more because of our support of Israel DOES NOT mean that they do not hate us ONLY because of our support of Israel. The post is still there. They hate us because our support of Israel. Again, that does not mean that they exclusively hate us because of our support of Israel. The problem is that your position is based on the false notion that I am saying that they hate us exclusively because of our support of Israel. Otherwise your post is meaningless. This is because if I said that the ONLY reason they hate us is because of our support of Israel, and they hated us prior to our supporting Israel, then you would be right. But because I DID NOT SAY that the only reason they hate us is because of our support of Israel, you are wrong, because although some in the ME may have hated us prior to Kissinger, some have come to hate us because of what we are doing to the Palestinians.

So here the post did not move, it's still in the same place, they hate us because of our support of Israel.

I pointed out that in fact Arab opinions of the United States have dropped since we brought in an administration that was less supportive of Israel, and you shifted to a "killing innocent people makes people mad" argument, and then insisted you weren't shifting goal posts.

No that is not a shift. It is an attempt to explain something to you that you do not appear to understand. That when you commit violence against innocent people they will get mad and hate you. So again, the post did not shift, they are at the same place, they hate us because we are supporting Israel.

No amount of sophistry can change that.

:shrug: It is a factor - sure. And as was pointed out to you, it is also irrelevant to whether or not we should support Israel.

No it is relevant because that hatred is causing our relationship with other nations to be strained, it is making it difficult for us to stand without hypocrisy for human rights, and it is making it more difficult to combat terrorism because it is giving terrorists a recruiting tool.

 

[Fledermaus]

Here is an idea...

Hamas stops lobbing rockets and mortars into Israel and uses the money to improve the infrastructure of Gaza which has been theirs for seven bloody years. Better for the Palestinians, better for Israel.

 

[William Rea]

Here is an idea...

Hamas stops lobbing rockets and mortars into Israel and uses the money to improve the infrastructure of Gaza which has been theirs for seven bloody years. Better for the Palestinians, better for Israel.

I suspect that a just peace would achieve that but hey, 'justice' is an extremist position.

 

[Fledermaus]

I suspect that a just peace would achieve that but hey, 'justice' is an extremist position.

Please explain.

Hamas has Gaza. One of the original "Palestinian" territories. (If you ignore the fact from 1948 to 1967 it was occupied by the Egyptians).

Fatah appears to e negotiating for the formerly JORDANIAN (1948-1967) West Bank.

What 'justice' are you talking about?

 

[MildSteel]

Please explain.

Hamas has Gaza. One of the original "Palestinian" territories. (If you ignore the fact from 1948 to 1967 it was occupied by the Egyptians).

Fatah appears to e negotiating for the formerly JORDANIAN (1948-1967) West Bank.

What 'justice' are you talking about?

The 'justice' is a sovereign Palestinian state, based on pre 1967 borders.

Hamas control of Gaza is limited. Israel exercises control of Gaza in major ways. The control of Hamas is not the control of a sovereign. Israel controls the air space and territorial waters of Gaza, collects taxes in Gaza and gives it to the Palestinians, and controls the flow of goods in and out of Gaza which means that Gaza cannot trade freely with the various countries of the world. That is not sovereign control.

 

[Fledermaus]

The 'justice' is a sovereign Palestinian state, based on pre 1967 borders.

Hamas control of Gaza is limited. Israel exercises control of Gaza in major ways. The control of Hamas is not the control of a sovereign. Israel controls the air space and territorial waters of Gaza, collects taxes in Gaza and gives it to the Palestinians, and controls the flow of goods in and out of Gaza which means that Gaza cannot trade freely with the various countries of the world. That is not sovereign control.

Pre 1967 Palestinian state DID NOT EXIST. Period. DID NOT.

The West Bank was under JORDANIAN occupation.

The Gaza Strip was under EGYPTIAN occupation.

There was NO sovereign Palestinian state, based on pre 1967 borders.

And Israel shows great leniency given that Hamas has, since 2007, constantly and intentionally attacked CIVILIAN centers.

 

[MildSteel]

Pre 1967 Palestinian state DID NOT EXIST. Period. DID NOT.

The West Bank was under JORDANIAN occupation.

The Gaza Strip was under EGYPTIAN occupation.

There was NO sovereign Palestinian state, based on pre 1967 borders.

So what? Pre 1948 an Jewish state did not exist. Under international law the Palestinian people have the right of self determination, and the boundaries of a Palestinian state have been determined by international law and accepted by the international community to be based on pre 1967 borders.

And Israel shows great leniency given that Hamas has, since 2007, constantly and intentionally attacked CIVILIAN centers.

Israel has not shown leniency. Especially since Ariel Sharon assumed power back in 2001, the Israelis have constantly violated international humanitarian law and engaged in the brutal repression of the Palestinian people.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I suspect that a just peace would achieve that but hey, 'justice' is an extremist position.

Yes, that's what the gerrymandering of terms does. When you hijack the word "justice" and use it in an orwellian sense to mean adhering to maximalist Palestinian demands and the conquest of Israel by hook or by crook, then yes "justice" is an extreme position. So is "peace, if you see what lonewolf has to say on the subject...

For general application, just see George Orwell's guide, which the "pro-Palestinian" side has been using so well...

 

[Fledermaus]

So what? Pre 1948 an Jewish state did not exist. Under international law the Palestinian people have the right of self determination, and the boundaries of a Palestinian state have been determined by international law and accepted by the international community to be based on pre 1967 borders.

Israel has not shown leniency. Especially since Ariel Sharon assumed power back in 2001, the Israelis have constantly violated international humanitarian law and engaged in the brutal repression of the Palestinian people.

REPEAT... There WAS NO Palestine in Pre 1967. None. There COULD have been had they not chosen war instead of peace. In 1948, in 1967 and now.

AND.... Israel provides fuel, electricity, medical facilities, employment for the Palestinians who are CONSTANTLY attacking them.

AND.... They have tried to reduce casualties

AND... They have not crushed the Gaza in spite of thousands upon thousands of acts of war perpetrated by Hamas and their ilk.

 

[MildSteel]

REPEAT... There WAS NO Palestine in Pre 1967. None. There COULD have been had they not chosen war instead of peace. In 1948, in 1967 and now.

There was not and is not today a sovereign Palestinian state and that is the problem. However, international law has stated that the acquisition of land through war is prohibited. Not only that but it also states that the Palestinian people should have a state based on pre 1967 borders. This is according to international law and the broad consensus of the international community as well.

AND.... Israel provides fuel, electricity, medical facilities, employment for the Palestinians who are CONSTANTLY attacking them.

The reason Israel must do all these things is because it will not let the Palestinians have a legitimate state will full sovereignty. If Israel would give the Palestinians a state where they can trade freely and attract investment, then there would be no need for Israel to do such things for the Palestinians. Currently they choke and keep the Palestinian people in a wretched condition, only giving enough for their bare subsistence. It is said that 70 per cent of the Palestinians depend on some sort of public assistance. It's time for Israel to take the choke hold off the Palestinian people and give them a proper state.

AND.... They have tried to reduce casualties

The way to reduce casualties is to give the Palestinians a state so that this type of action will not be necessary in the first place.

AND... They have not crushed the Gaza in spite of thousands upon thousands of acts of war perpetrated by Hamas and their ilk.

They have crushed Gaza. What do you think they have been doing the last couple of weeks?

 

[DA60]

'YES'

(Where is the 1000-size font?)

 

[American]

There is such a thing, and Israel is doing it. Your response sounds like the mentality of backwards people who believe you should stone a woman to death for committing adultery.



Perhaps is Israel gave the Palestinians a just, sovereign state based on pre 1967 borders Hamas would not be shooting at Israel. Until that is tried, that will continue to be a remedy.

So your solution is to wipe Israel off the map, duly noted.

 

[MildSteel]

So your solution is to wipe Israel off the map, duly noted.

The Jews are good people, in general. They have been known to stand up for abuses against human rights for years and have contributed heavily to the intellectual development of modern human civilization. It is remarkable that notwithstanding this, that they have allowed a nation that is supposed to be a refuge for such a great people to be led by butchers like Sharon, Olmert, and Netanyahu. I wish they would put some of their good people in power instead of these fiends.

 

[American]

The Jews are good people, in general. They have been known to stand up for abuses against human rights for years and have contributed heavily to the intellectual development of modern human civilization. It is remarkable that notwithstanding this, that they have allowed a nation that is supposed to be a refuge for such a great people to be led by butchers like Sharon, Olmert, and Netanyahu. I wish they would put some of their good people in power instead of these fiends.

And the Arab states, what of their leaders?

 

[ido_]

There is such a thing, and Israel is doing it. Your response sounds like the mentality of backwards people who believe you should stone a woman to death for committing adultery.

When you will have to run with a 1 week old baby to a bomb shelter in 90 seconds you'll understand that there is no such thing.

 

[MildSteel]

And the Arab states, what of their leaders?

What do you think?

 

[MildSteel]

When you will have to run with a 1 week old baby to a bomb shelter in 90 seconds you'll understand that there is no such thing.

I disagree.

 

[Serenity]

When you will have to run with a 1 week old baby to a bomb shelter in 90 seconds you'll understand that there is no such thing.

I saw a picture the other day Ido_ that showed staff from the Maternity Section of a Hospital in Israel. They were sheltering in the stairwell during a rocket alert siren and every single one of them had a precious little newborn in their arms. Terrible for everyone concerned.

I hope you can all stay safe.

 

[ido_]

I saw a picture the other day Ido_ that showed staff from the Maternity Section of a Hospital in Israel. They were sheltering in the stairwell during a rocket alert siren and every single one of them had a precious little newborn in their arms. Terrible for everyone concerned.

I hope you can all stay safe.

Fortunately for me, Hamas stopped lobbing rockets on our area last week. People in Ashkelon area are not that lucky though.

 

[American]

What do you think?

I asked you.