Should the unborn have a right to self-determination?[W:1064]

[Scrabaholic]

That's what I thought. Typical unfounded senseless fear of a no-big-deal event.

Easy to say when you know you will never, ever be pregnant, isn't it?

Well, I didn't say anything about you,

Yes, you did and you admitted that I was included when you said this:

It would be too much trouble just to please you. Besides, you're not alone. I can't just single you out, and lay the blame only on you. You're all responsible.

 

[RamFel]

Easy to say when you know you will never, ever be pregnant, isn't it?

No. It's Easy to say because it's true. It's true. Why the anger?

Are you saying, for the record, that a majority of women experience horrible pregnancies?


Yes, you did and you admitted that I was included when you said this:

I didn't point you out, did I?

I just told you that if there was proof that you said any of this, that it was such a small matter, that it wasn't worth it for me to dig that information up for you. You should look up your own dirt. Also, I was saying that about the left. Then you mis-applied your anger at me. if you are going to say something, you should try and take responsibility for it. Because otherwise someone, just like me, will bring up your confusion. Just like now, if I say that you said that a majority of women suffer life threatening injury and illness, then if I misquote you or lied about what you said then you do have a say against me. But if you join in the same chorus with other like minded compatriots then you DID say it.

Take responsibility.

 

[Scrabaholic]

I didn't point you out, did I?

I just told you that if there was proof that you said any of this, that it was such a small matter, that it wasn't worth it for me to dig that information up for you. You should look up your own dirt. Also, I was saying that about the left. Then you mis-applied your anger at me. if you are going to say something, you should try and take responsibility for it. Because otherwise someone, just like me, will bring up your confusion. Just like now, if I say that you said that a majority of women suffer life threatening injury and illness, then if I misquote you or lied about what you said then you do have a say against me. But if you join in the same chorus with other like minded compatriots then you DID say it.

Take responsibility.

Whaaaat? Care to try again and make some sense this time?

 

[RamFel]

Whaaaat? Care to try again and make some sense this time?

OK maybe putting it in a single paragraph was a bad idea.

I didn't point you out, did I?

I just told you that if there was proof that you said any of this, that it was such a small matter, that it wasn't worth it for me to dig that information up for you. You should look up your own dirt.

Also, I was saying that about the left. Then you mis-applied your anger at me. if you are going to say something, you should try and take responsibility for it.

Because otherwise someone, just like me, will bring up your confusion. Just like now, if I say that you said that a majority of women suffer life threatening injury and illness, then if I misquote you or lied about what you said then you do have a say against me.

But if you join in the same chorus with other like minded compatriots then you DID say it.

Take responsibility.

*****

Do you understand ?. If you say something, don't deny it. Take responsibility, but what you did instead was come out swinging at me.

You didn't say it, but you believe it. You say you do, don't you? Why not admit to it? Why is that a problem. ?

you are very confusing. And if you do that again, I will bring up your confusion.

Take responsibility.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

And yet the vast majority do go through extreme pain.

Some people do not go through any pain when they break bones or when they pass a kidney stone either but they are very few and far between.

There you go again: another sweeping statement with nothing in the way of verifiable proof to uphold it.

 

[Scrabaholic]

OK maybe putting it in a single paragraph was a bad idea.

I didn't point you out, did I?

I just told you that if there was proof that you said any of this, that it was such a small matter, that it wasn't worth it for me to dig that information up for you. You should look up your own dirt.

Also, I was saying that about the left. Then you mis-applied your anger at me. if you are going to say something, you should try and take responsibility for it.

Because otherwise someone, just like me, will bring up your confusion. Just like now, if I say that you said that a majority of women suffer life threatening injury and illness, then if I misquote you or lied about what you said then you do have a say against me.

But if you join in the same chorus with other like minded compatriots then you DID say it.

Take responsibility.

*****

Do you understand ?. If you say something, don't deny it. Take responsibility, but what you did instead was come out swinging at me.

You didn't say it, but you believe it. You say you do, don't you? Why not admit to it? Why is that a problem. ?

you are very confusing. And if you do that again, I will bring up your confusion.

Take responsibility.

You still aren't making any sense, but hey, that is nothing new.....

 

[minnie616]

There you go again: another sweeping statement with nothing in the way of verifiable proof to uphold it.

Read post #391 in which I posted the article about pain and childbirth.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

Read post #391 in which I posted the article about pain and childbirth.

That article does not say what you claim it does.

 

[Bodi]

Whaaaat? Care to try again and make some sense this time?

It made sense...

 

[RamFel]

You still aren't making any sense, but hey, that is nothing new.....

Then their is something wrong and it's not with me. Go see someone about it. Good luck to you where ever you're going

 

[minnie616]

That article does not say what you claim it does.

The article stated the pain level of each woman was recorded.

The Pain level was rated between 0 no pian and 100 worst pain.
All except a few women had pain.
But the level of pain recorded was not recalled and
When asked two days later the average pain they remembered was about 70.
By the time 2 months passed ithe pain number they remember was about was 65.


And...
From this article
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 09:30 EST, 16 May 2013 | UPDATED: 15:38 EST, 16 May 2013

Two men who wanted to prove that their wives were 'exaggerating' the pain of childbirth underwent a labor simulation meant to mimic contractions experienced by women - with hilarious results.
In celebration of Mother's Day, the men, from Kensington Church based in Troy, Michigan, contacted gynecologist Dr Julie Masters and filmed their experience.

'I’m going to throw up,' says one man in front of his wife, who was in the room watching the labor simulation unfold.
Scroll down for video

The video, posted on Vimeo, follows the men as they have electrodes attached to their abdomens, which simulate contractions - 'and what your wife went through during labor,' explains Dr Masters.

Staring with 'early labor,' a two or three on the doctor's pain scale, the men squirm and 'breath through it.'

One of the men exclaims: 'That was early labor? It feels like someone is taking a saw and just carving up my abdomen.

By the time they reach the 'active' stage of labor, the squirming has turned into screaming.
'I'm hoping that's a seven [on the pain scale],' says one of the men. 'No, you're at four,' remarks the nurse.

...


But some doctors believe the simulation doesn't compare the the real-life pain women experience during labor.
'You can think of this as a very strong charley horse,' Dr. Jennifer Ashton told ABC News.

'Is it as painful as labor?

My opinion would be it isn’t.'

Read more: Two men use labor simulation to prove their wives 'exaggerate' agony of childbirth - and painful realization that they couldn't be more wrong is caught on film | Daily Mail Online

 

[Henrin]

The article stated the pain level of each woman was recorded.

The Pain level was rated between 0 no pian and 100 worst pain.
All except a few women had pain.
But the level of pain recorded was not recalled and
When asked two days later the average pain they remembered was about 70.
By the time 2 months passed ithe pain number they remember was about was 65.


And...
From this article
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 09:30 EST, 16 May 2013 | UPDATED: 15:38 EST, 16 May 2013



Read more: Two men use labor simulation to prove their wives 'exaggerate' agony of childbirth - and painful realization that they couldn't be more wrong is caught on film | Daily Mail Online

What is even the point of that? Any woman that demands I feel the pain of child birth can find the door. There is no reason whatsoever that men should go through that nonsense and any woman that endorses it should be condemned.

There is a point to the pain during childbirth as it helps deliver the child, but there is no point to men using those devices. They are effectively torture machines really. If you're a woman and you want your man to use those devices you should be ashamed of yourself.

And really, how twisted is it to say, hey feel my pain for no reason at all? It's just evil and stupid.

 

[minnie616]

What is even the point of that? Any woman that demands I feel the pain of child birth can find the door. There is no reason whatsoever that men should go through that nonsense and any woman that endorses it should be condemned.

There is a point to the pain during childbirth as it helps deliver the child, but there is no point to men using those devices. They are effectively torture machines really. If you're a woman and you want your man to use those devices you should be ashamed of yourself.

And really, how twisted is it to say, hey feel my pain for no reason at all? It's just evil and stupid.

The subject of childbirth pain was brought up.

I stated a fact ...that the vast majority of women have much pain during labor a childbirth.
It's just a fact.

I posted the article but I sure didn't encourage the men to use the machines.

According to the article men asked to use them by their own choice.

 

[DifferentDrummr]

The article stated the pain level of each woman was recorded.

The Pain level was rated between 0 no pian and 100 worst pain.
All except a few women had pain.
But the level of pain recorded was not recalled and
When asked two days later the average pain they remembered was about 70.

Still very dubious.

One woman's "80" could easily be another woman's "30."
Not to mention there are all kinds of methodology questions that the paper doesn't address.

But even if that study were somehow possible to be rock-solid, it still amounts to using pain as an excuse to abort.

 

[minnie616]

Still very dubious.

One woman's "80" could easily be another woman's "30."
Not to mention there are all kinds of methodology questions that the paper doesn't address.

But even if that study were somehow possible to be rock-solid, it still amounts to using pain as an excuse to abort.

I never made the case pain is a reason to abort.

 

[Henrin]

The subject of childbirth pain was brought up.

I stated a fact ...that the vast majority of women have much pain during labor a childbirth.
It's just a fact.

I posted the article but I sure didn't encourage the men to use the machines.

According to the article men asked to use them by their own choice.

Why do women like yourself bring up those machines regularly? I still remember watching the wives of two men using those machines laughing it up as the two men suffered. Do you think those women would like their husbands laugh as they suffer through child birth?

 

[DifferentDrummr]

I never made the case pain is a reason to abort.

Then why even bring it up in a discussion of abortion?

 

[minnie616]

Why do women like yourself bring up those machines regularly? I still remember watching the wives of two men using those machines laughing it up as the two men suffered. Do you think those women would like their husbands laugh as they suffer through child birth?

That was first time I saw the article and I did not even watch the video.

 

[minnie616]

Then why even bring it up in a discussion of abortion?

I did not bring it up.

 

[Henrin]

That was first time I saw the article and I did not even watch the video.

I have no idea if these two men are the two men I'm thinking about, but I remember seeing a video a few years ago of two men laying in bed with these devices strapped on them as the female doctor and the two wives laughed about it.

 

[minnie616]

I have no idea if these two men are the two men I'm thinking about, but I remember seeing a video a few years ago of two men laying in bed with these devices strapped on them as the female doctor and the two wives laughed about it.

I don't think pain is humorous either.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Then why even bring it up in a discussion of abortion?

I brought up the issue of pain, and yes, it is one reason why *I* will not put my body through gestation/childbirth. Others will choose to and that is their right, of course.

 

[Henrin]

I brought up the issue of pain, and yes, it is one reason why *I* will not put my body through gestation/childbirth. Others will choose to and that is their right, of course.

Sometimes you have to go through hell to reach paradise.

 

[NGNM85]

As a metaphysical materialist, or 'naturalist', I understand humans to be wholly, and entirely biological. Since I do not believe in an 'immortal soul', etc., I define life and death in strictly neurological terms. Therefore, I cannot fathom how the unborn could possibly be believed to have any kind of rights before approximately 28 weeks, which is when organized, consistent brainwaves emerge. At that point, there ceases to be any meaningful biological difference between the fetus, and a neonate, therefore, they must be accorded the same moral weight. So, I would argue that society has a moral obligation to protect the baby, at that point. However, to be clear, I oppose all hard gestational limits. Furthermore, if, for some reason, the baby could not be removed alive, that it may be permissible to kill it, although I find the idea disquieting to say the least.

 

[RamFel]

You still aren't making any sense, but hey, that is nothing new.....

Do you really mean that you don't understand what I posted?

And that along with not knowing that you are not really a conservative. Sad.

But it was not unexpected.