Should the Mentally Ill, Young Adults, or Males be allowed to own firearms?

[AConcernedCitizen]

Get yourself an education, then we can have a serious discussion.

Been there, done that. Have a couple of University degrees to show for it.

Dismissing the argument on the basis of my presumed lack of education is an ad hominem fallacy. Which you might know, had you gotten yourself an education.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Likely when 18 USC 922g was enacted, mass shootings weren't the concern. Suicide was the concern. Where do the mentally ill rank in regards to suicides?

I was merely addressing the point that most young adult males don't commit mass shootings with the obvious counterpoint that neither do most people with mental illness.

Whatever the suicide statistics regarding mental illness, having a mental illness is not as good a predictor of risk regarding firearm-related crimes as being a young adult male.

 

[DebateChallenge]

The vast, vast majority of people with mental illness also do not commit mass shootings.

So you say, do you have a source for your claim?

 

[Rucker61]

I was merely addressing the point that most young adult males don't commit mass shootings with the obvious counterpoint that neither do most people with mental illness.

Whatever the suicide statistics regarding mental illness, having a mental illness is not as good a predictor of risk regarding firearm-related crimes as being a young adult male.

How is an event with sub one percent odds a "predictor" at all?

 

[DebateChallenge]

Been there, done that. Have a couple of University degrees to show for it.

Any bozo on the internet can claim to have degrees, that doesn't mean they actually do.

Dismissing the argument on the basis of my presumed lack of education is an ad hominem fallacy. Which you might know, had you gotten yourself an education.

The kind of stuff you're saying and the positions you're taking shows you don't have much of an education.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

So you say, do you have a source for your claim?

I didn't see you posting a link backing up your claim that the "vast majority of men ages 18-35 do not commit mass shootings." If you want to engage in ridiculous sealioning over super-obvious facts, I'll play, but you go first.

It's hard to believe you came into this discussion unaware of the fact that the vast majority of people with mental illness do not commit mass shootings, and then had the audacity to start off by telling me to get an education.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

How is an event with sub one percent odds a "predictor" at all?

The roles of predictor variables and response variables in statistical analysis are independent of whether or not something has "sub one percent odds."

For example, if you perform a statistical analysis on shark attacks, you will observe a strong correlation between being attacked by a shark in the ocean compared with being attacked by a shark while not in the ocean. Swimming in the ocean increases your odds of being attacked by a shark by orders of magnitude, even though the overall odds of being attacked by a shark are still very slim.

 

[Noodlegawd]

So why is it ok to deny the constitutional rights of people with mental illness....

We don't. We deny them those rights if they have been adjudicated as a mental defective, or committed to a mental institution. That's dramatically different than "with mental illness."

It is unconstitutional to deny people their rights on the basis of sex or age.

 

[zsu2357]

They can participate in non-combat roles. Or maybe work in a munitions factory or something.

So you are good with having them work in a munitions plant? Not making my ammo etc. if they are that bad off which I doubt.

 

[zsu2357]

I don't think fighting 60 year olds will be that much of a problem. 60 year olds aren't as spry as they used to be.

Sounds to me like we got a concerned citizen real sure of themself.

 

[zsu2357]

And you do realize this is just a thought experiment, right?

For a "thought experiment"there seems to be a lot of links in the OP that the author of would have you believe is the gospel.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

One thing that it seems everyone can agree on, including both the NRA and the federal government, is that people with mental illness should not have 2nd amendment rights This seems to be based on some sort of "common sense" idea that people with mental illness cannot be trusted with firearms, because "what if they go crazy and start randomly shooting people?"What it isn't based on is any kind of concrete data.

The demographics most likely to engage in gun violence are young adults and males. Those are much better predictors of gun violence than mental illness is.

So why is it OK to deny the constitutional rights of people with mental illness, who are far more likely to be victims of violence rather than perpetrators, but not ok to deny those rights to the two demographic groups most likely to actually engage in gun violence?

You say there is no concrete data because you never looked for it. Why do you think there is a "not guilty by reason of insanity" plea available for mentally sick crime suspects? Show me proof that is not an extremely high risk factor based on medial data, not raw statistics.

Sure, young men are the most likely to use firearms, but that was a total coincidence for all three mass shootings in 2012.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

So you are good with having them work in a munitions plant? Not making my ammo etc. if they are that bad off which I doubt.

I think young males would do fine working in a munitions plant under the watchful eye of older female supervision.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

You say there is no concrete data because you never looked for it. Why do you think there is a "not guilty by reason of insanity" plea available for mentally sick crime suspects? Show me proof that is not an extremely high risk factor based on medial data, not raw statistics.

I think there are a number of legal defenses and a number of reasons that people engage in gun violence. Sometimes a small minority of people with mental illness will commit a violent crime with a gun during an episode, just like sometimes a minority of married men will commit a violent crime with a gun in a jealous rage after catching their wife in bed with another man.

The latter scenario occurs much more regularly than the former scenario, and yet married men are still allowed to own firearms. Why are married men allowed to own firearms when there is a chance that they might fly into a jealous rage and use them to commit a crime?

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I think there are a number of legal defenses and a number of reasons that people engage in gun violence. Sometimes a small minority of people with mental illness will commit a violent crime with a gun during an episode, just like sometimes a minority of married men will commit a violent crime with a gun in a jealous rage after catching their wife in bed with another man.

The latter scenario occurs much more regularly than the former scenario, and yet married men are still allowed to own firearms. Why are married men allowed to own firearms when there is a chance that they might fly into a jealous rage and use them to commit a crime?

Did you ever research the percentage of Americans - either sex, any age and marital status - who are diagnosed with psychiatric disorders (both genetic and acquired) that affect judgment with a firearm?

The federal government has a specific list of these for the NGBRI plea, including a very common problem: alcoholism.

 

[Rucker61]

The roles of predictor variables and response variables in statistical analysis are independent of whether or not something has "sub one percent odds."

For example, if you perform a statistical analysis on shark attacks, you will observe a strong correlation between being attacked by a shark in the ocean compared with being attacked by a shark while not in the ocean. Swimming in the ocean increases your odds of being attacked by a shark by orders of magnitude, even though the overall odds of being attacked by a shark are still very slim.

Show us your peer reviewed study showing that being male is a predictor.

Do you care at all about the Constitutionality or your proposal?

 

[VanceMack]

The roles of predictor variables and response variables in statistical analysis are independent of whether or not something has "sub one percent odds."

For example, if you perform a statistical analysis on shark attacks, you will observe a strong correlation between being attacked by a shark in the ocean compared with being attacked by a shark while not in the ocean. Swimming in the ocean increases your odds of being attacked by a shark by orders of magnitude, even though the overall odds of being attacked by a shark are still very slim.

Assuming you are a male, are you a rapist? There are approx 240,000 rapes committed by 'people' just like you, so do the predictor variables indicate you are a rapist?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Show us your peer reviewed study showing that being male is a predictor.

It is already linked in the OP, but here it is again.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Assuming you are a male, are you a rapist? There are approx 240,000 rapes committed by 'people' just like you, so do the predictor variables indicate you are a rapist?

That isn't how predictor variables work.

But along that line of reasoning, just as not all males are rapists, not all people who have been hospitalized for mental illness are violent criminals. So if someone who has been committed to a mental institution in the past isn't a violent criminal, why should they be prevented from owning a gun?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Where do the mentally ill rank in regards to suicides?

Given that 100% of suicides are posthumously categorized as mentally ill?

 

[Rucker61]

It is already linked in the OP, but here it is again.

"2) violent incidents involving males as either offenders or victims are more likely to involve firearms".

This predictor?

 

[DebateChallenge]

I didn't see you posting a link backing up your claim that the "vast majority of men ages 18-35 do not commit mass shootings." If you want to engage in ridiculous sealioning over super-obvious facts, I'll play, but you go first.

When talking about just the number of men ages 25-29 in the USA you've got a figure of 11.88 million. In 2020 there were 693 mass shootings in the USA, that is the total number of mass shootings not just the number of mass shootings done by men ages 18-35 but even if all the mass shootings in 2020, all 693 of them, were done by men ages 18-35 its still a much smaller number than 11.88 million and 11.88 million is just the number of men who are of ages 25-29 in the USA, if you're going to talk about all men in the USA who are of the ages 18-35 its obviously going to be an even bigger number than 11.88 million. So there you have it, the vast majority of men ages 18-35 do not commit mass shootings. Now its your turn to back up your claim.

Population of the U.S. by sex and age 2023| Statista

The estimated population of the U.S.

www.statista.com

"The estimated population of the U.S. was approximately 329.48 million in 2021, and the largest age group was adults aged 25 to 29. There were 11.88 million males in this age category and around 11.36 million females."

Gun Violence in 2021, By the Numbers

The facts and figures that stuck with us.

www.thetrace.org

693​

The number of mass shooting incidents in the United States in 2021.

 

[DebateChallenge]

That isn't how predictor variables work.

But along that line of reasoning, just as not all males are rapists, not all people who have been hospitalized for mental illness are violent criminals. So if someone who has been committed to a mental institution in the past isn't a violent criminal, why should they be prevented from owning a gun?

They're not prevented from owning a gun if the court declares them legally sane following their release from the mental institution.

 

[VanceMack]

That isn't how predictor variables work.

But along that line of reasoning, just as not all males are rapists, not all people who have been hospitalized for mental illness are violent criminals. So if someone who has been committed to a mental institution in the past isn't a violent criminal, why should they be prevented from owning a gun?

They shouldnt, if they are no longer a threat to themselves or others. Thats why red flag laws are such travesties.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

When talking about just the number of men ages 25-29 in the USA you've got a figure of 11.88 million. In 2020 there were 693 mass shootings in the USA, that is the total number of mass shootings not just the number of mass shootings done by men ages 18-35 but even if all the mass shootings in 2020, all 693 of them, were done by men ages 18-35 its still a much smaller number than 11.88 million and 11.88 million is just the number of men who are of ages 25-29 in the USA, if you're going to talk about all men in the USA who are of the ages 18-35 its obviously going to be an even bigger number than 11.88 million. So there you have it, the vast majority of men ages 18-35 do not commit mass shootings. Now its your turn to back up your claim.

Population of the U.S. by sex and age 2023| Statista

The estimated population of the U.S.

www.statista.com

"The estimated population of the U.S. was approximately 329.48 million in 2021, and the largest age group was adults aged 25 to 29. There were 11.88 million males in this age category and around 11.36 million females."

Gun Violence in 2021, By the Numbers

The facts and figures that stuck with us.

www.thetrace.org

693​

The number of mass shooting incidents in the United States in 2021.

In 2020 there were 52.9 million people in the US suffering from mental illness. In 2020 there were 693 mass shootings in the USA, that is the total number of mass shootings not just the number of mass shootings done by people suffering from mental illness but even if all the mass shootings in 2020, all 693 of them, were done by people suffering from mental illness its still a much smaller number than 52.9 million.

This was fun.