Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

sangha · Mar 3, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Mosquitos. But you don't hear a big hue and cry about saving them. Honeybees, OTH, have a "cachet" about them that draws people into the discussion about saving them.

That's possible but I suspect the fact that mosquitos are in no danger of extinction has something to do with it.

If you told people that they had to stop spraying in order to protect mosquitos, they'd be screaming bloody murder. But when you tell them they need to stop spraying to in order to protect honeybees, suddenly it's a different story. Odd that the mosquito populations (which are highly present in agricultural areas as well) have shown no signs of collapsing.

Again, we're talking about domesticated food crops, not wild plants. If wild plants were having pollination problems, public education might lead to people embracing mosquitos. It wouldn't be the first time a previously maligned species gained public favor. Sharks used to be pretty much hated but are now seen as species which should be protected.

sangha · Mar 3, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Every beekeeper I know tells me that it's is the mites, since they are the one thing that has gotten worse in the last few years. The insecticide levels haven't gone up an in a lot of areas they've actually down (since the less insecticide the farm has to use, the less expense it has to pay out, a lot of large farms are re-looking at how much they use in order to save money).

Saying "It's mites" really doesn't explain much, even if it were true. If true, then why are mites such a big problem now? Has something changed that has caused an increase in the mite population? If so, what?

Or maybe it's because the bees are more vulnerable to mite infestations. If so, what's the cause of that?

sangha · Mar 3, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Small/med. sized farms are no competition for agricorps. They wouldn't sweat them for one minute if it cost them so much as a dime.

Given current conditions, of course they're not competition. But if things changed, then things would be different.

JumpinJack · Mar 3, 2015

lizzie said:
I understand, but it's not a pesticide problem. For a couple of decades, we've been losing honeybee colonies from varroa mites, and we keep trying to come up with new and improved methods for treatment. I am an organic beekeeper- I don't put any chemical in the hives unless I am concerned that they are near-death. That hasn't happened for the past few years. What I have now, appears to be a mite-tolerant colony out in my beeyard. They have not been manipulated or re-queened for personality. They have been left to do their own breeding as per their nature. They are a hot hot hive, and will attack with little provocation. That being said, they appear to be naturally resilient and are surviving, in spite of many losses.

Pesticides are not what is causing the honeybee decline. It's been varroa mites for years now, and there's also a not-yet-well-understood colony collapse disorder which appears problematic, but we've had pesticides around for many years, and some of them were much more lethal than what is often used nowadays.

What I have read - and I can only go by what has been studied and reported by scientists - is that no one is 100% of the cause, or if there is only one cause, but there is indication that pesticides are related to the susceptibility of bees to mites. There may have been some different pesticides in the past, but apparently there are more pesticides now, and a variety of them, so that they form a deadly concoction in pollen. Fungicides are a particular problem, I read. The mites, like pesticides, have been around for a long time, right? The whole thing strikes me as a sort of weakening of their immune system, like humans will idsick if we have a weakened immune system. I don't know if that's a correct analogy, but that's what that pesticide connection sounds like to me.

This discussion reminds me of a recent discussion I had regarding newly occurring earthquakes in my area, where earthquakes had never occurred before last year. I asked what is causing the earthquakes? Someone responded that it's caused by the fault line we live on. That's not the answer, of course. The fault line has always been there, but the earthquakes started last year. So something has recently started happening that is causing the earthquakes. The location of the earthquakes is determined by the fault line.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

Dittohead not! said:
I believe that the "cachet" about honeybees is the fact that human beings like to eat.

And I believe that you made that up about mosquitoes.

Prove me wrong if you can.

Not made up. Mosquitos feed primarily on nectar (they only need blood when they reproduce) and as such function as pollinators. Once the weather warms up, take a walk in the woods and see what flying nectar feeding insect you see the most of. A little basic real world research project for you. I also got the information about mosquitos form a book I read MANY years ago and that one little factoid has always stuck with me.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

sangha said:
That's possible but I suspect the fact that mosquitos are in no danger of extinction has something to do with it.

Neither are honeybees.

Again, we're talking about domesticated food crops, not wild plants. If wild plants were having pollination problems, public education might lead to people embracing mosquitos. It wouldn't be the first time a previously maligned species gained public favor. Sharks used to be pretty much hated but are now seen as species which should be protected.

So why not breed mosquitos to do our pollinating? I fully understand that a world without honey would be a sadder place, but if we can replace bees with mosquitos, then the risk isn't that of this fabricated crisis of worldwide famine, but rather that of bad PR.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

sangha said:
Saying "It's mites" really doesn't explain much, even if it were true. If true, then why are mites such a big problem now? Has something changed that has caused an increase in the mite population? If so, what?

Or maybe it's because the bees are more vulnerable to mite infestations. If so, what's the cause of that?

Now we're making progress!!! You just made a BIG step, sangha. You stopped jumping to conclusions and started asking intelligent questions. I don't why we suddenly are having these infestations, possibly by breeding for personality (less aggressive mostly) we've also eliminated a trait in bees that helps them resist the mites. Maybe we've moved the bees around so much that they've picked these mites from places where they normally exist and moved them to places where they don't normally exist. That's two theories (not conclusions, but theories) in less than a minute. This is how these kind of issues should be addressed, not by jumping in a bandwagon, but by asking questions based on facts, instead of assumptions and then looking for answers to those questions that prove or disprove the theories you posit.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

sangha said:
Given current conditions, of course they're not competition. But if things changed, then things would be different.

Then why did you go on about how agricorps are trying to get rid of small/med. sized farms??

Dittohead not! · Mar 4, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Not made up. Mosquitos feed primarily on nectar (they only need blood when they reproduce) and as such function as pollinators. Once the weather warms up, take a walk in the woods and see what flying nectar feeding insect you see the most of. A little basic real world research project for you. I also got the information about mosquitos form a book I read MANY years ago and that one little factoid has always stuck with me.

Sure, mosquitoes, bumblebees, butterflies, ants, a whole lot of insects feed on nectar and pollinate flowers. Mosquitoes are the #1 pollinator? That was the claim.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

Dittohead not! said:
Sure, mosquitoes, bumblebees, butterflies, ants, a whole lot of insects feed on nectar and pollinate flowers. Mosquitoes are the #1 pollinator? That was the claim.

Like I said, that was a book I read a LONG time ago (early '90s??). But take the time on a nice day to take a walk in the wild and see what flying nectar eating insects you see the most of and judge for yourself.

sangha · Mar 4, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Neither are honeybees.

Not if current trends continue

So why not breed mosquitos to do our pollinating? I fully understand that a world without honey would be a sadder place, but if we can replace bees with mosquitos, then the risk isn't that of this fabricated crisis of worldwide famine, but rather that of bad PR.

There are a number of reasons (ex mosquitos are a disease vector, they don't live in hives, etc) mosquitos are not suitable as commercial pollinator.

sangha · Mar 4, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Now we're making progress!!! You just made a BIG step, sangha. You stopped jumping to conclusions and started asking intelligent questions.

I've spent my life asking intelligent questions and not jumping to conclusions so I've made no big steps.

But since you were so supportive of the notion that it's mites, I can't say the same for you but I'm glad to see you making progress and asking questions.

sangha · Mar 4, 2015

faithful_servant said:
Then why did you go on about how agricorps are trying to get rid of small/med. sized farms??

I'm not sure why you see any contradiction. I explained how the market currently works and how that puts small/med farms at a disadvantage which is consistent with my claim that small/med farms can't compete effective against agricorps.

faithful_servant · Mar 4, 2015

sangha said:
I've spent my life asking intelligent questions and not jumping to conclusions so I've made no big steps.

But since you were so supportive of the notion that it's mites, I can't say the same for you but I'm glad to see you making progress and asking questions.

I based what I said about the mites on the statements from beekeepers, not from jumping to a conclusion.
sangha: Bees are dying, it must be insecticides.
faithful_servant: Bees are dying. I need to talk to some of the beekeepers I know and see what they have to say about it. (talks to beekeepers) There's a plague of mites that are causing most of the problems with colony collapse.

earthworm · Mar 4, 2015

lizzie said:
I am a beekeeper, and I DON'T support the idea of making pesticides which harm them, illegal. We've been keeping bees in this country for many years now, and they aren't the cause of bee colony declines.

Then, pray tell, what is ?
I am not a beekeeper, but, it makes sense that the bees should be protected from poisons .. much as we are ..

sangha · Mar 4, 2015

faithful_servant said:
I based what I said about the mites on the statements from beekeepers, not from jumping to a conclusion.

Basing your conclusions on anecdotes is jumping to conclusions, IMO

sangha: Bees are dying, it must be insecticides.

Please stop lying about what I've said. Try quoting what I've actually said instead of making up lies.

lizzie · Mar 4, 2015

earthworm said:
Then, pray tell, what is ?
I am not a beekeeper, but, it makes sense that the bees should be protected from poisons .. much as we are ..

I believe I mentioned that in another post.

There will be a very occasional hive loss from pesticides, but it's not common at all. Bees from one colony don't typically ALL go to visit the same flowers for pollen and nectar. The conditions for pesticide poisoning also have to be specific, and not just that plants were sprayed, thus the bees die. It depends on the method, the pesticide, the time of day, and when the bees visit.

Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?