- Joined
- May 22, 2011
- Messages
- 10,821
- Reaction score
- 3,348
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Centrist
What did they say about taxes and voting?
Right, like under the French monarchy all over again.Are you contemplating whether I might be of the opinion that only men should be able to vote? Don't get too excited. To the extent that a person, woman or man, is an autonomous adult, subject to taxes collected by a government, such a person must be allowed to vote in elections to that government (taxation with representation).
I'm not following you down your rabbit hole, Alice. The topic....and I am having to remind you once again...is:Women generally didn't pay taxes back then either. They were regarded as dependents. Dependents don't vote. This isn't even coherent.It's not myopic. There are adults with varying degrees of dependence on others for survival. On the extreme end of the spectrum, consider profoundly physically and mentally disabled adults. Some are unable to even express a preference in voting. If an adult is adjudicated disabled and has no rights or responsibilities because of that dependence, why do you regard this disabled person's right to vote so essential? And then there are many more adults who are less dependent, but still somewhat dependent on society's other adults to get by. Where on this spectrum should the right to vote be drawn? Or should no such line be drawn? Should we regard voting rights as sacrosanct such that being 18+ years from birth means you absolutely can vote?It's a philosophical argument. I am of the opinion that what underlies the voting privilege is being subject to the mandatory contribution to public goods and services provided by the level of government for which one would vote. I am not subject to New York taxes and similarly cannot vote in New York elections.
That people who pay taxes should be able to vote, and that people who don't have to pay taxes but can vote themselves benefits from the treasury will signal the end of the Republic.
I'm not following you down your rabbit hole, Alice. The topic....and I am having to remind you once again...is:
Should people on welfare be allowed to vote?
I'm not going into some other convoluted justification of disenfranchisement by equating all welfare recipients to the mentally ill, or that since you don't live in a certain state you cannot vote there (!?).
But you have already argued that those with a "conflict of interest" (Seniors) should not vote.....but they do STILL pay taxes.That people who pay taxes should be able to vote, and that people who don't have to pay taxes but can vote themselves benefits from the treasury will signal the end of the Republic.
Um, it's already been established that the wealthiest among us vote themselves subsidies.
But you have already argued that those with a "conflict of interest" (Seniors) should not vote.....but they do STILL pay taxes.
No. People work out of state, pay taxes to that state, yet cannot vote in that state....it is not thier residence.Any government to whose taxes I am subject, I can vote in those elections.
Most able bodied adults on SNAP work and pay taxes, yet under your convoluted extremist one size fit, they should not vote.People on welfare are in some cases not subject to those taxes because they are very poor and very dependent on society to get by. They don't pay taxes, rather they only receive benefits from those taxes.
I have no idea why you think their not voting is based on "dependence", this is a false premise.This is the essence of dependence. Minors are dependent and they don't have the voting privilege. Never have had it.
And you go hopping down your convoluted extremists Founders rabbit hole again, to hell with amendments!Voting is (or should be) more of a function of being subject to that government's taxes than simply be some universal privilege you receive when turning 18.
Campaign contributions are different than voting. David Koch, as an example, only wields one vote. He can use that one vote for the candidate he believes will help his business, but he also is subject to the taxes of that government. He can also donate his money to basically anyone he wants. If he was adjudicated disabled and had no means for caring for himself, he would not be subject to the financial burden of producing a tax for the government, and thus would not be able to vote.
You don't remember saying that those with conflicts should not vote?Where did I assert tax-paying seniors should not vote?
So, basically only people with money can vote themselves handouts?
I haven't even taken a firm position on this, actually, I've merely offered the theoretical explanations for why dependents and net-recipients of tax dollars (who don't pay taxes) could justifiably be considered ineligible to vote, or still eligible but with their vote weighted to account for their dependency.
If what I've said is so outrageous, you must be beside yourself with outrage that children can't vote. Are you?
I read the article, and many others by Walter Williams on the subject. Also I have read many other qualified historians who have written on the subject. And all who approach it from the actual results rather than theory agree that by and large, poverty is not the cause of crime.
I grew up during a period when, by modern standards, most people were poor. But there was virtually no crime more serious than somebody swiping a donut off the counter at the drug store or stealing corn or watermelons from a farmer's field. (Most of us didn't steal the donut but did steal the corn and watermelons.) Of course in those days, corn sold for a penny an ear and you could buy a huge watermelon for a dime.
I grew up during a period when, by modern standards, most people were poor. But there was virtually no crime more serious than somebody swiping a donut off the counter at the drug store or stealing corn or watermelons from a farmer's field. (Most of us didn't steal the donut but did steal the corn and watermelons.) Of course in those days, corn sold for a penny an ear and you could buy a huge watermelon for a dime.
I vote for democrats and I've never collected a cent in welfare
I disagree. The politicians enrich themselves greatly while in office. And those who promise lots of freebies, goodies, and gratuitous money get the vote from those who hope to receive it. No politician who depends on the welfare vote and/or low income vote to keep his seat is going to stop promising those freebie or delivering on at least some of his/her promises.
Great red herring. This isn't about children voting. It's about those you don't want to have a right to vote due to special interest.
What is the reason children don't (can't) vote?
...because they are minors.
So what? Why don't we allow minors to vote or do other adult things?
Because they lack "maturity, judgment, and stability for responsible exercise of the franchise", they are not legally adults, they cannot be drafted.What is the reason children don't (can't) vote?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Because they lack "maturity, judgment, and stability for responsible exercise of the franchise", they are not legally adults, they cannot be drafted.
Did you forget what thread you're in? What is it about minors that renders them unable to vote, contract with others, etc.? What is it about being a minor that precludes this?.
I imagine you are trying to say something, and when you have it worked out, let me know.So they are substantively different from autonomous taxpaying adults in such that they do not have the same social, political and legal rights and responsibilities as autonomous taxpaying adults.
What do we say about adults who are not autonomous, taxpaying, those who lack maturity, judgment and stability for responsible exercise of the franchise? According to you, it would seem we pretend they don't lack such things, rather you'd pretend they have them even when they demonstrably don't.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?