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Should Intelligent Design be taught in schools?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dmanc227
  • Start date Start date
steen said:
Well, he IS a moron when he wants ID taught in connection with science.
Nope, do your homework. As has already been shown on this thread, he suuports ID being taught in addition to the science of evolution. In addition.
 
KCConservative said:
Could you either provide a source for this startling revelation or admit that it is only your partisan opinion? Either way, just so we're clear. Thanks.

I already qualified my statement with "I think."

bush's uneducation about science is evident by his support for ID being taught in science classrooms.

it is possible that he actually isnt smart enough to know that science and math are important and is only reacting to pressure, that part I did assume without basis.
 
KCConservative said:
Nope, do your homework. As has already been shown on this thread, he suuports ID being taught in addition to the science of evolution. In addition.

see post 407:

star2589 said:
doesnt matter. the only place ID has in the science classroom is as an example of a pseudo-science.

and post 411

star2589 said:
I dont think I did. bush does indeed support ID being taught in addition to evolution, rathen than instead of evolution, but as long as we are talking about teaching it in a science classroom, thats completely irrelevant.

being exposed to multiple ideas is great, when all the ideas are valid. ID is a pseudo-science, and should not be taught as being an equally valid theory as evolution. scientifically, its not a valid theory at all.

the only place it has in a science class room is as an example of a pseudo-science, and bush was definatly not advocating that.
 
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star2589 said:
it is possible that he actually isnt smart enough to know that science and math are important and is only reacting to pressure, that part I did assume without basis.
....but smart enough to become president of the united states.

Look, he supports, but does not mandate, that ID be presented in school. I remember taking an Alternative Religions class in high school. Nobody asked me to accept it as absolute and nobody asked me to make a stink about it either. School is for provacotive thought. Science is fine. Evolution is fine. Creation should be equally fine.

For you guys to use this issue as a way to defend your "Bush is a Moron" mantra is plain silly, but not surprising.
 
Do any of you actually believe that Bush being smart enough to understand the importance of science and math has anything to do with how things are and will be? Wake up to the reality of special interest please...
 
KCConservative said:
....but smart enough to become president of the united states.

Look, he supports, but does not mandate, that ID be presented in school. I remember taking an Alternative Religions class in high school. Nobody asked me to accept it as absolute and nobody asked me to make a stink about it either. School is for provacotive thought. Science is fine. Evolution is fine. Creation should be equally fine.

For you guys to use this issue as a way to defend your "Bush is a Moron" mantra is plain silly, but not surprising.

the issue isnt that he supports teaching it in schools. the issue is that he supports teaching it in science classrooms.
 
KCConservative said:
Nope, do your homework. As has already been shown on this thread, he suuports ID being taught in addition to the science of evolution. In addition.
Yes, along with science, he wan't ID taught. What part of this didn't you understand?

You MUST be a conservative.
 
star2589 said:
the issue isnt that he supports teaching it in schools. the issue is that he supports teaching it in science classrooms.

I would go further. ID is a religious concept created by religious people to counter the theory of evolution which they think is blasphemy. It is a topic for church, not public schools.

Also, even if a public school were to teach a comparative religion class, ID would still not be proper to teach if referred to as science or a theory in the class. It can only be considered a faith-based concept.
 
justone said:
Does not change a thing. The point is: reviewing the text talking about thermodynamics I have found and you agreed that the text has no clue about T-cs.. And it is not the only one article of such type.


I have already told you, there have been many attempts to make PMM and/or to provide a theoretical base for it, just calculating Entropy. They include PMMs working from energy of earth, sun etc., and just mathematical calculations and everything you can imagine. . Some of those calculations have been done by people whose knowledge well exceeds my rudimental knowledge of T-cs and math. As well a number of attempts have been made to disprove Einstein. I am not sure about Einstein, but in T-cs there is hardly a chance for you to be reviewed by peers. T-cs just walks away. It is a law of T-cs – don’t argue, just walk away. I am not joking- this is what the old man told me – we walk away.
It is like you would prove --- gravity laws are not valid because you don’t see them in outer space. Who would be arguing? T-cs just walks away. Any disprove of PMM would lead to invention of another PMM…. This is all the meaning of rejecting PMM without looking at it since 17**. T-cs is a quite unique science. Therefore ToE cannot be disproved, just by submitting PMM to T-cs. Who would be arguing? Fortunately for you all exact sciences confirm to T-cs. In Quantum mechanics the probability of PMM (decrease of En (S) in 2nd law meaning) is 50/50 which makes the existence of PMM =0 in indefinite number of tries. So, you may be sure nobody would be taking time to review your finding stating otherwise. T-cs does not depend on time when things happen. It is a universal law of the universe before your existence and after your existence in all places of the universe for all systems.

Your article represented the snowflake a as a complex system , I showed and you saw a snowflake was not more complex than liquid, and the more, gaseous state of the same matter – and now I am telling you: it is so throughout all Entropy (S) charts and tables, for all systems. And even from common sense point of view – you have a chance to draw a snowflake – but what is a chance for you to make a drawing of the vapor it turns into when it absorbs energy=heat?

Quote from an article which has no relation to ToE-ID fight:
One of the problems with studying the mechanisms and history of complex systems is the
lack of a working definition of complexity. …. Complexity depends on the observer.

99% of people looking at a snowflake would accept that it is a complex structure. 99% of real, not fake scientists would ask: in relation to what, what is the point you are looking at the snowflake from, what are your working definitions, what is your zero mark, what is grading of your tape measure, what are parameters you are accepting, what is the system of coordinates. Your definitions of scientific method are missing this part of science ( 0, system of coordinates, universal axioms, tape measure, parameters) in order to include ToE as a science.
So, your observations would be your personal impressions and your ability to convince other people that your personal impressions are common for them too.

Look at any living organism, and take yourself as an example. In order to exist you have to eat and drink – your consume calories, or chemicals to split them into calories, so all in all it is calories. Calories are a measure of heat/energy. Then WHATEVER YOU DO you're just burnimg calories; and then you sh/t the rest of calories out. Even when you think and have an idea, or experience emotions, - you observe chemical/electrical processes in your nervous system as a flow/transformation of energy provided by your food. Tell me what am I missing, what else you are doing besides taking energy, exchanging energy with surroundings, transforming energy in movements, thinking, ideas = chemical, electrical and mechanical forms of energy. You do nothing else. Not even a little thing is an exclusion. Then, as a prove that you are not a PMM, you die, sun makes you dry out, water makes you disintegrate, no food can revive you, you turn into a fossil. Therefore T’cs is a scientific way of describing you on the earth and in the universe. T-cs as well as other exact sciences has no emotions looking at you and does not differentiate you from a machine.

You are a machine, my friend. Law of thermodynamics had been known well before Darwin. Darwin started talking about all the machines with no attempt to apply the scientific method of the description of the machines. He had no axioms, no 0 point, and no tape measure. Just his own impressions. Which made him a genius. It never happened to any other science. Mendeleyev arranged chemicals in the table according to their atomic weights, so he used weights as a tape measure, not his own impressions, -- as well as definitions of atoms and other axioms and parameters of chemistry. Each science has a ‘’0”” point where it start. Math starts from + and – and it all can be taken apart down to + and -. “∫” is a sum. Geometry starts from a dot and a line. T-cs starts from P, T and V. Your science starts from nowhere, thus it also violates the 1st law of T-cswhich says nothing comes from nowhere and nothing goes nowhere, or, in another reading: E=MC^2, - even Einstein had to confirm to T-cs. In order to survive you first have to confirm to Thermodynamics; it does not matter whether you are an atheist or a believer , Darwin or Einstein – first of all and all in all you are a machine. And you are not a Perpetual Mobile.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jcdverha/scijokes/2_18.html

Most of what you said has no bearing on the issue at hand. You spend a good page just describing how you need a tape measure to describe a scientific theory. First, if you want to make a real argument and to have people take you seriously (as you obvously were trying to do with all of your examples, scientific wording, and circular discussion patterns) you wouldn't use the term "tape measure" as a scientific requirement. SCALE is the term you should have used.

Second, everything else you said reguarding enthalpy and the first law of thermodynamics has been shown over and over again to have no bearing on the scientific theory of evolution. Earth is not a closed system and therefore the first law of thermodynamics cannot be applied to what happends on earth as if it were one. Trying to stretch the wordings of accepted science to "disprove" ToE is bunk and you will be shot down time and time again. Anybody willing to spend 15 seconds searching on google will find all of you scientific jargon and banter to be completely misguided.
 
KCConservative said:
Oh my, that's awful. Who are these loons that have lied to you, steen? That must have really damaged you. Have you sought help for this travesty....this inhumanity....this complete injustice? Seriously, you should talk with someone. Can you believe those nasty loons? How dare they believe something different than you.

Really, when we are arguming the merrits of ToE with people like this, you have to ask yourself.... what's the point? These people who are so interested in the "truth" always blanch when faced with it.
 
mnpollock said:
Really, when we are arguming the merrits of ToE with people like this, you have to ask yourself.... what's the point? These people who are so interested in the "truth" always blanch when faced with it.


Which is why so many just ....watch and laugh
 
mnpollock said:
Most of what you said has no bearing on the issue at hand. You spend a good page just describing how you need a tape measure to describe a scientific theory. First, if you want to make a real argument and to have people take you seriously (as you obvously were trying to do with all of your examples, scientific wording, and circular discussion patterns) you wouldn't use the term "tape measure" as a scientific requirement. SCALE is the term you should have used.

Why? Most people certainly understood what I was meaning and why I did NOT care about scientific wording. And SCALE was not what I was meaning. For those you cannot get see the picture: Wikipedia/scientific method/ - if they don’t get bored:
The systematic, careful collection of measurements or counts of relevant quantities is often the critical difference between pseudo-sciences, such as alchemy, and a science, such as chemistry. Scientific measurements taken are usually tabulated, graphed, or mapped… Measurements demand the use of operational definitions of relevant quantities….
The scientific definition of a term sometimes differs substantially from their natural language usage. For example, mass and weight overlap in meaning in common discourse, but have distinct meanings in physics. Scientific quantities are often characterized by their units of measure which can later be described in terms of conventional physical units when communicating the work….
New theories sometimes arise upon realizing that certain terms had not previously been sufficiently clearly defined. For example, Albert Einstein's first paper on relativity begins by defining simultaneity and the means for determining length.
--- is it more clear and less boring for you?


mnpollock said:
Second, everything else you said reguarding enthalpy ,
Entropy, S, S, S, Entropy, I said Entropy and everyone was talking about S. But enthalpy works, too. OK
mnpollock said:
and the first law of thermodynamics
2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law; and the 1st law too
mnpollock said:
has been shown over and over again to have no bearing on the scientific theory of evolution.
The scientific theory of evolution showed me the text. I showed and showed again that the text had no clue about T-cs; and as well you have no clue, and you show that you have no clue - or you would show me a prove besides picking on my English.
mnpollock said:
Earth is not a closed system
Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter,
mnpollock said:
and therefore the first law of thermodynamics
2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law, 2nd law and the 1st law too
mnpollock said:
cannot be applied to what happends on earth as if it were one.
MUST be applied everywhere, MUST be applied everywhere, MUST be applied everywhere,
mnpollock said:
Anybody willing to spend 15 seconds searching on google will find all of you scientific jargon and banter to be completely misguided.
Anybody can see the result of your search. You have needs. I had a conversation with people I respected, who did not have needs, and they certainly understood what I was referring to. I hope you just did a mistake because you skipped some previous posts, I don’t know..
 
justone said:
Your science starts from nowhere, thus it also violates the 1st law of T-cs
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jcdverha/scijokes/2_18.html

Now, I may be misunderstanding you (and I admit that I was confused by what T-cs meant) but does this not refer to the 1st law of Thermodynamics? If it doesn't then ignore what I said.

justone said:
Why? Most people certainly understood what I was meaning and why I did NOT care about scientific wording. And SCALE was not what I was meaning. For those you cannot get see the picture: Wikipedia/scientific method/ - if they don’t get bored:
The systematic, careful collection of measurements or counts of relevant quantities is often the critical difference between pseudo-sciences, such as alchemy, and a science, such as chemistry. Scientific measurements taken are usually tabulated, graphed, or mapped… Measurements demand the use of operational definitions of relevant quantities….
The scientific definition of a term sometimes differs substantially from their natural language usage. For example, mass and weight overlap in meaning in common discourse, but have distinct meanings in physics. Scientific quantities are often characterized by their units of measure which can later be described in terms of conventional physical units when communicating the work….
New theories sometimes arise upon realizing that certain terms had not previously been sufficiently clearly defined. For example, Albert Einstein's first paper on relativity begins by defining simultaneity and the means for determining length. --- is it more clear and less boring for you?

I was just correcting you, calm down.

justone said:
Entropy, S, S, S, Entropy, I said Entropy and everyone was talking about S. But enthalpy works, too. OK

Once again this breaks down to which law we are talking about. 1st = enthalpy, 2nd = entropy. If I was misunderstanding you before, then yes, you are correct about using the word Entropy. My point still stands though that earth is not a closed system and therefor the idea that evolution does not follow the 2nd law because organisms are becoming more complex doesn't hold sway. As for must be applied everywhere this is not true. It is only applied in a closed system, an open system is free to lose energy and have increasing complexity all it wants. Perhaps we are arguing different topics here? This could be the case.

justone said:
Anybody can see the result of your search. You have needs. I had a conversation with people I respected, who did not have needs, and they certainly understood what I was referring to. I hope you just did a mistake because you skipped some previous posts, I don’t know..

Needs? What needs? I was correcting (or if the case may be, misinterpreting) what you were saying about entropy and enthalpy of a closed vs. open system and its bearing on the evolution arguments. Please elaborate. And yes, I did skip some posts simply because I get bored having to read over that many at one time. I am still allowing for the option of us misunderstanding each other though as I have said above.
 
justone said:
Anybody can see the result of your search. You have needs. I had a conversation with people I respected, who did not have needs, and they certainly understood what I was referring to. I hope you just did a mistake because you skipped some previous posts, I don’t know..


Actually....believe it or not, there are those who simply find your extensive diatribe on thermodynamics rather pointless, and have come to the conclusion that though you do seem to understand something of the principles involved are failing to communicate any point at all. If indeed you DO have a point, either I for one am far to stupid to see it, or its simply taking so long to get to your point that interest has long left. That you feel superior is fine, but you are making a bit of a fool of yourself in this debate by showing a lack of communication skills, let alone a poor understanding of Evolutionary Theory.
 
mnpollock said:
Now, I may be misunderstanding you (and I admit that I was confused by what T-cs meant)

I am still allowing for the option of us misunderstanding each other though as I have said above.

I hope some other people who read and followed from the begining are not as confused as you are.
1. I considered some text posted here about T-cs – with no intention to prove a disprove a theory or take any side.
2. the second law seemed to me more applicable to Biogenesis or genesis, rather than to ToE, and I said so.
3. Energy from the son does create work and even storms on some other planets are the work of energy of the planets and other things. Certainly plants grow and can grow, - with the purpose to stop growing at all one day. And the 1st law would be more applicable for immediate consideration. And it is with the 2nd law for the given system ( with input of heat)
3.T-cs is applicable – in my view – to living organisms and I described why, and I described why you will die in my opinion. I am not aware of such studies combining T-cs and biology. Evolution certainly involves T-cs but I have no descriptions or reference beyond my own mind.
4. First of all we applied the 2nd law to a snowflake (crystal) as to a “”complex system” in T-cs – without any ties to a definition of a complex system – it was the right thing to do to follow the text.
5. you may put boundaries on a system for your consideration and certain applications and experements, and you still are aware that even if you consider an isolated system - sealed inside of a glass bulb surrounded by vacuum - you would observe ehchange on quantum level. you don't know where the universe ends so for the considerations of the universe you describe it as a closed system and its surroundings. And the second law is applicable in the any place of the universe. you started your life in the universe. (Again - closed system MEANS exchange of energy, open systen adds exchange of matter... but it is not exactly related to the above) I don't know what your google shows - try something away from ToE vs. ID fight.
6. Everyone knows that I like to pick on ToE because of my personal frictions with Darwin, and everyone knows that the most of my knowledge of ToE comes from this forum. AND YOU ARE A MACHINE WHATEVER ARE YOUR EMOTIONS.
 
justone said:
5. you may put boundaries on a system for your consideration and certain applications and experements, and you still are aware that even if you consider an isolated system - sealed inside of a glass bulb surrounded by vacuum - you would observe ehchange on quantum level. you don't know where the universe ends so for the considerations of the universe you describe it as a closed system and its surroundings. And the second law is applicable in the any place of the universe. you started your life in the universe. (Again - closed system MEANS exchange of energy, open systen adds exchange of matter... but it is not exactly related to the above) I don't know what your google shows - try something away from ToE vs. ID fight.
6. Everyone knows that I like to pick on ToE because of my personal frictions with Darwin, and everyone knows that the most of my knowledge of ToE comes from this forum. AND YOU ARE A MACHINE WHATEVER ARE YOUR EMOTIONS.


What The F@CK Does this MEEEAAAAN?.....I seriously have no Idea what you just tried to Type.
 
justone said:
Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter, Doesn’t matter,...

...MUST be applied everywhere, MUST be applied everywhere, MUST be applied everywhere,

actually it matters very much. the 2nd LoT only applies to closed systems, and therefore must only be applied to closed systems, not "everywhere."
 
KCConservative said:
Nope, do your homework. As has already been shown on this thread, he suuports ID being taught in addition to the science of evolution. In addition.
Doesn't matter, you can not teach ID in addition to evolution, the two are completely opposite. One describes via the scientific method, the other responds through supernatural causes. Thus ID has no place in the science class as an explaination for anything. Bush clearly only adheres to his own superstitions and not science thus what we've said of him is true. He has no idea what science is.
 
KCConservative said:
....but smart enough to become president of the united states.
That's Rove's intelligence not Bush's

KCConservative said:
Look, he supports, but does not mandate, that ID be presented in school. I remember taking an Alternative Religions class in high school. Nobody asked me to accept it as absolute and nobody asked me to make a stink about it either. School is for provacotive thought. Science is fine. Evolution is fine. Creation should be equally fine.
And it is now clear that you may be equally ignorant of what sceince is. You're alternative religions allows for alternatives because that is the curriculum, however science is not about alternatives, it's about teaching with respect to the scientific method. ID is far out of any rational of the scientific theory because of it's attribution of everything to the supernatural. Thus a president as smart as being able to become president not knowing this is indeed a moron.
 
jfuh said:
And it is now clear that you may be equally ignorant of what sceince is.
Not that you're flame baiting or anything. I know how you hate that sort of thing.
 
jfuh said:
That's Rove's intelligence not Bush's

And it is now clear that you may be equally ignorant of what sceince is. You're alternative religions allows for alternatives because that is the curriculum, however science is not about alternatives, it's about teaching with respect to the scientific method. ID is far out of any rational of the scientific theory because of it's attribution of everything to the supernatural. Thus a president as smart as being able to become president not knowing this is indeed a moron.
Your hate for the man is so out of control that your argument is laughable. Words like moron suffocate your party. It's funny none of you have been able to see that yet. :mrgreen:
 
KCConservative said:
Your hate for the man is so out of control that your argument is laughable. Words like moron suffocate your party. It's funny none of you have been able to see that yet. :mrgreen:

"not that you're flame baiting or anything, 'cause I know how you hate that sort of thing"
 
mnpollock said:
"not that you're flame baiting or anything, 'cause I know how you hate that sort of thing"
I do indeed. That's why my post was civil. Is there a point you wanted to make?
 
KCConservative said:
I do indeed. That's why my post was civil. Is there a point you wanted to make?

My point was the same that you were trying to make when you said the very same thing. If you had no point, then neither did I.
 
KCConservative said:
Your hate for the man is so out of control that your argument is laughable. Words like moron suffocate your party. It's funny none of you have been able to see that yet. :mrgreen:
And what party do I belong to KC?
If you wish to refute my claim then refute it, and refute with facts. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to refute my claims with facts since you find if laughable.
 
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