Should infertile heterosexuals be allowed to marry ?

[phattonez]

Not always are children "the natural consequence of sex". In fact, the vast majority of the times humans have sex, procreation does not occur. Over at least 98% of the time, possibly over 99%.

Keep doing it and tell me that children are not the natural consequence of sex.

 

[phattonez]

A possible natural consequence

That happens fairly often.

 

[WorldWatcher]

To establish the legal kinship of "spouse". With this legal kinship comes rights, responsibilities, protections, and benefits, just like many other legal kinships. The biggest difference in this one however is the fact that the two people are adults, agreeing mutually to take on the responsibilities in exchange for the other things. The vast majority of legal kinships are not established by mutual agreement, since most are established by a birth that is connected to other people who are also legal relatives. That is also why spouses are recognized as the closest next of kin to their spouse and vice versa the vast majority of the time. They are voluntarily agreeing to the conditions.

The two main reasons we have legal marriage are because they benefit society (and we are not talking about procreation) and the people want it.

I can give my best friend power of attorney over my financial and health matters. So tell me again why I need marriage?

She said "rights, responsibilities, protections, and benefits" not " financial and health matters". Those are two very different things and there are lot's of things that can't be covered under a power of attorney.


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[phattonez]

She said "rights, responsibilities, protections, and benefits" not " financial and health matters". Those are two very different things and there are lot's of things that can't be covered under a power of attorney.


>>>>

Rights? That's power of attorney.

Responsibilities? What responsibilities can I make for my spouse in marriage that I cannot make through a will, trust, or power of attorney agreement?

Protections and benefits? Again, a will or trust can do the same thing.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Rights? That's power of attorney.

Responsibilities? What responsibilities can I make for my spouse in marriage that I cannot make through a will, trust, or power of attorney agreement?

Protections and benefits? Again, a will or trust can do the same thing.

1. A power of attorney does not provide for the tax free transfer of real property to a spouse when the other spouse is deceased and relief from the resulting tax liabilities. On Civil Marriage does that.

2. A power of attorney does not allow for exemption from the Estate Tax applicable to the sale of a primary home, only Civil Marriage does that. (When a home is sold a single person can claim up to $250,000 in an exemption, $500,000 for a Civilly Married couple. When one spouse dies the surviving spouse can still claim the married exemption for up to two years after the death if the home is sold. This cannot be duplicated with a power of attorney.)

3. A power of attorney cannot provide for a spousal privilege in the case of a criminal prosecution.

4. A power of attorney cannot provide for a spouse to be buried in a National Cemetery next to a spouse who was an honorably serving veteran of the United States.

5. A power of attorney does not convey parenthood upon the birth of a child. A $50 marriage license does, for non-Civilly Married couples it would require a formal adoption costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

6. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship recognized under the Family Medical Leave Act so that a person can care for their spouse (or be cared for by them) in times of medical emergency.

7. A power of attorney cannot waive the tax penalty for employer provided health insurance for a spouse of the same gender. (Same-sex Civilly Married couples are charged this extra tax on employer benefits where Different-sex Civilly Married couples are not.)

8. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship under Social Security whereby the surviving spouse can receive benefits at the working spouses rate if higher then their own.

9. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship where a spouse can then sponsor their spouse for immigration purposes.

10. Even with a power of attorney and a will, not being Civilly Married allows for other relatives to step in and challenge a will under probate court and in some states allows those family members to over ride the decrees of the will.



Just a few off the top of my head.


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[phattonez]

1. A power of attorney does not provide for the tax free transfer of real property to a spouse when the other spouse is deceased and relief from the resulting tax liabilities. On Civil Marriage does that.

A trust does.

2. A power of attorney does not allow for exemption from the Estate Tax applicable to the sale of a primary home, only Civil Marriage does that. (When a home is sold a single person can claim up to $250,000 in an exemption, $500,000 for a Civilly Married couple. When one spouse dies the surviving spouse can still claim the married exemption for up to two years after the death if the home is sold. This cannot be duplicated with a power of attorney.)

A trust does.

3. A power of attorney cannot provide for a spousal privilege in the case of a criminal prosecution.

Elaborate?

4. A power of attorney cannot provide for a spouse to be buried in a National Cemetery next to a spouse who was an honorably serving veteran of the United States.

Why should a spouse and not a best friend?

5. A power of attorney does not convey parenthood upon the birth of a child. A $50 marriage license does, for non-Civilly Married couples it would require a formal adoption costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

How bigoted! How could the state want only married couples to adopt?! How unfair!

6. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship recognized under the Family Medical Leave Act so that a person can care for their spouse (or be cared for by them) in times of medical emergency.

Shouldn't best friends be allowed to do this?

7. A power of attorney cannot waive the tax penalty for employer provided health insurance for a spouse of the same gender. (Same-sex Civilly Married couples are charged this extra tax on employer benefits where Different-sex Civilly Married couples are not.)

Should best friends be taxed if they want to both get health insurance? Why can't they?

8. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship under Social Security whereby the surviving spouse can receive benefits at the working spouses rate if higher then their own.

Do you think this should be tied to marriage? Why are best friends excluded from this?

9. A power of attorney does not establish a family relationship where a spouse can then sponsor their spouse for immigration purposes.

Do you think this should be tied to marriage? Why are best friends excluded from citizenship?

10. Even with a power of attorney and a will, not being Civilly Married allows for other relatives to step in and challenge a will under probate court and in some states allows those family members to over ride the decrees of the will.

They'd have a tough time with that.

 

[RAMOSS]

Children being raised by promiscuous parents is unnatural.

That happens ALL The time.. it really does!

 

[Risky Thicket]

If it is of population (which it really looks like), then at least in the US Catholics comprise 24% of the population, yet only 22.75% of the cheaters, thus making them less likely to cheat on average. But I don't know what the percentage was in their sample.

Well, I'm still looking when I have the spare time to read through what I am able to find. Valid data regarding "whose cheating who, whose being true, who don't even care anymore, whose not doing right to someone tonight and whose car is parked next-door" is scarce as we might imagine.

You and I might set up a booth on Sundays outside different churches, denominations and faiths to survey men and women coming out of church service but how valid would the data be? Try worthless.

We could survey damn near anywhere in public and be all but guaranteed that the results will be skewed depending on the location.

From what I have read evangelicals are a fairly lusty group as far as sexual infidelity is concerned and I believe that includes Catholics. People who attend church regularly reportedly are less inclined to be out slipping in the darkness. Jews, not so much.

"Jew want to fool around?" Apparently Jews are less inclined toward sexual infidelity. I'm not sure why that would be. From personal experience, pre-maritally and after divorce, Jewish girls rock in rack as a general rule.

I've mentioned this before but I first became interested in the topic of religious orientation and sex when I lived with a clinical social worker who specialized in sexual counseling. She'd come home and talk about her day, as we all do. Of course she'd never divulge any information that would identify a client. She was very careful about that. I didn't care and didn't want to know anyway.

She was supervised by a psychiatrist. They'd talk. He would give her things to read. As I became interested, she'd share many of the articles and the research with me. I found it very interesting.

Sociology fascinates me. Psychology? Meh. If one guy is into masturbation on a unicycle in rush hour traffic I find it mildly amusing and I would be only slightly curious. If scores of people were doing it in different locations across the country I would be extremely interested in knowing why.

Early in our evening discussions I was fairly judgmental of the people she might mention. Over time and after reading and later over drinks with a very close friend who was a Ph.D type clinical psychologist and the regional director for a mental health program (we'd never discussed it before as I wasn't at all curious about it up to that point) I became much less judgmental and more interested.

Bottom line:

People do cheat. We all know people who have or who do. They represent almost every faith and no faith. We do not know most people who cheat, but there are many who do, and for different reasons.

People are promiscuous: To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, "A promiscuous person is someone who is getting more sex than you."

People are kinky: No one is going to talk a lot about it, but Kinsey proved the world is kinky and studies have been proving it every since. There really is no "normal" sex.

Sexual infidelity, promiscuity and kinky happen frequently across all social and religious strata. What may vary is the social or religious interpretation of the behavior but the interpretation doesn't much alter the behavior. That then seems to make it most difficult to conduct valid research regarding sex and religion; not impossible but difficult.

 

[WorldWatcher]

A trust does.



A trust does.

Not for the cost of a $50 marriage license. You can hire estate planners and lawyers, but not at the same cost.

Elaborate?

Spouses not being able to be compelled to testify against their spouse in a criminal prosecution case. They can do it voluntarily, but in may jurisdictions they cannnot be compelled by the prosecution.

Why should a spouse and not a best friend?

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

How bigoted! How could the state want only married couples to adopt?! How unfair!

Deflection and not what I said. I said that assumed parentage laws in State provide that the spouse in a Civil Marriage is legally the parent if a child is born in wedlock. A power of attorney does not meet this criteria. Therefore the only legal parent would be the mother giving birth, for the father to be awarded a legal status - he would have to adopt his own child.

Shouldn't best friends be allowed to do this?

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

Should best friends be taxed if they want to both get health insurance? Why can't they?

I didn't mention "should", I defined what can or cannot be done with a power of attorney.

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

Do you think this should be tied to marriage? Why are best friends excluded from this?

Best friends aren't excluded.

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

Do you think this should be tied to marriage? Why are best friends excluded from citizenship?

Best friends aren't excluded.

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

They'd have a tough time with that.

Didn't say it was easy, but there have been cases where families have challenged the wills of a deceased person. Being a legal spouse strengthens the calm making it even more difficult.

A will can be challenged by a spouse, children, heirs, etc. Someone leaves their entire estate to a friend, children and other heirs at law can challenge the will. Someone leaves their entire estate to their spouse. In the case of a spouse it is much more unlikely that a successful challenge can be raise.


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[phattonez]

That happens ALL The time.. it really does!

The fact that it happens all the time does not make it natural.

 

[phattonez]

Not for the cost of a $50 marriage license. You can hire estate planners and lawyers, but not at the same cost.

So if it's just about cost then let's make trusts cheaper.

Spouses not being able to be compelled to testify against their spouse in a criminal prosecution case. They can do it voluntarily, but in may jurisdictions they cannnot be compelled by the prosecution.

Then let's not force people to testify.

You can already Civilly Marry your best friend. In 36 States and DC it can be a best friend of either gender, in the remainder only if the friend is of the opposite sex.

But what if I have a wife and I am closer to my best friend?

Deflection and not what I said. I said that assumed parentage laws in State provide that the spouse in a Civil Marriage is legally the parent if a child is born in wedlock. A power of attorney does not meet this criteria. Therefore the only legal parent would be the mother giving birth, for the father to be awarded a legal status - he would have to adopt his own child.

So in a lesbian couple where let's say they get divorced and one of the couple gave birth to the child. How are we to determine custody. Should the non-birthing partner get any custody? I say no, how about you? And should the father have any say in custody?

I didn't mention "should", I defined what can or cannot be done with a power of attorney.

The point is why don't we change laws regarding wills, trusts, powers of attorney, etc., instead of changing marriage? Wouldn't either angle be sufficient if this is the matter?

 

[RAMOSS]

The fact that it happens all the time does not make it natural.

Really?? Can you prove that? Can you show that it is more than your opinion, bias,and prejudice? What is your definition of 'natural' and 'unnatural' in this context?

It

 

[phattonez]

Really?? Can you prove that? Can you show that it is more than your opinion, bias,and prejudice? What is your definition of 'natural' and 'unnatural' in this context?

It

Natural means in accord with our human nature. In accord with our natural end.

The way you rush to "bias and prejudice" as an accusation is quite telling.

 

[RAMOSS]

Natural means in accord with our human nature. In accord with our natural end.

The way you rush to "bias and prejudice" as an accusation is quite telling.

Well.. it is in our human nature to be somewhat promiscuous. It has only been farily recently that social norms was monogamy, but our biological urges seems to over ride that quite often.. So, 'natural in according to our human nature' seems to be a matter of opinion in this case.

 

[phattonez]

Well.. it is in our human nature to be somewhat promiscuous. It has only been farily recently that social norms was monogamy, but our biological urges seems to over ride that quite often.. So, 'natural in according to our human nature' seems to be a matter of opinion in this case.

How is promiscuity natural? Does it bring more joy to use a random person for your own sexual gratification, or to start a stable relationship with a spouse with whom you are sexually exclusive?

 

[WorldWatcher]

So if it's just about cost then let's make trusts cheaper.

Go for it. Ask a lawyer that charges $250 an hour to set up a trust to evade taxes and to do it for less that $50.

Good luck.

Then let's not force people to testify.

Good luck.

But what if I have a wife and I am closer to my best friend?

Divorce your wife and marry your friend. If it's an opposite gender friend you can do that in all 50 States. If it's same gender friend you can do it in 37 states. Unless you are OK with waiting until after June that will also likely be legal in all 50 States.

So in a lesbian couple where let's say they get divorced and one of the couple gave birth to the child. How are we to determine custody. Should the non-birthing partner get any custody? I say no, how about you? And should the father have any say in custody?

Same way it's determined in a different-sex couple. The couple goes to court and the court evaluates the situation. Typically the parents end up with joint custody with one as the custodial parent (meaning the child lives with them most of the time and the other has visitation). Just as with different-sex couples it will often be the biological mother that is the custodial parent with the other parent have legal rights of involvement with the child.

A lesbian couple that has a child through IVF, or sperm donation through a clinic, or adoption doesn't have a "Father" in the situation to worry about as the sperm donor has relinquished all legal liabilities as part of the process. Same with adoption.

The point is why don't we change laws regarding wills, trusts, powers of attorney, etc., instead of changing marriage? Wouldn't either angle be sufficient if this is the matter?

That's what you want, I can respect that position.

Remove Civil Marriage from the law and create a whole new bloated government to deal with all the issues that had once pertained to Civil Marriage but now have to be administered separate through contracts, wills, trusts, powers of attorney, etc. (which as I've already proved DO NOT provide all the same rights, responsibilities, and benefits of Civil Marriage) - go for it.

Civil Marriage laws already define all those things for two consenting adults - whether they be of different-sexes or of the same-sex - so Civil Marriage is the logical way to go. But if you want to add complexity to it and a MUCH higher cost - go for it.

Personally my wife and I of 28 years will just stick with being married under the law.



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[RAMOSS]

How is promiscuity natural? Does it bring more joy to use a random person for your own sexual gratification, or to start a stable relationship with a spouse with whom you are sexually exclusive?

Do you really have to ask that. It is natural , because not only does it happen in species other than humans, but the frequency in which it will happen in mammals can be totally predicted based on certain anatomical features. The level of 'cheating' in the human species matches up specifically with those predictions. Society has attempted to impose restrictions on that behavior (unnaturally), but the behavior continues , although more secretively.

 

[phattonez]

Do you really have to ask that. It is natural , because not only does it happen in species other than humans, but the frequency in which it will happen in mammals can be totally predicted based on certain anatomical features. The level of 'cheating' in the human species matches up specifically with those predictions. Society has attempted to impose restrictions on that behavior (unnaturally), but the behavior continues , although more secretively.

The fact that it happens in nature is not what makes something natural. I defined natural for you, would you be kind enough to keep using that definition as it has been used in philosophy for centuries?

 

[RAMOSS]

The fact that it happens in nature is not what makes something natural. I defined natural for you, would you be kind enough to keep using that definition as it has been used in philosophy for centuries?

It seems that you can not show that what you call 'natural' or 'unnatural' is anything more than your own prejudices. I can give criteria for 'natural'. You seem to pull it out of your ... hat.

 

[phattonez]

It seems that you can not show that what you call 'natural' or 'unnatural' is anything more than your own prejudices. I can give criteria for 'natural'. You seem to pull it out of your ... hat.

I can't help you if you want to have a discussion on philosophy and can't bother to understand a philosophical concept.

 

[RogueWarrior]

And these kinds of willfully blind attitudes are precisely why we currently live in a country with almost a million elective abortions a year. :roll:

How are you going to forbid sex without marriage? How would that even be enforceable?

And how precisely do you derive from my comment that sex should be unprotected?

 

[RogueWarrior]

That happens fairly often.

Do you have stats to quantify 'fairly often'?

Pregnancies per sex act per capita?

 

[phattonez]

Do you have stats to quantify 'fairly often'?

Pregnancies per sex act per capita?

Look around. Where do you think children come from?

 

[RogueWarrior]

Look around. Where do you think children come from?

What an idiotic answer.
Can't find stats to quantify your 'fairly often'? Typically religious theist.

 

[chloerenee97]

They may as well be considering the other little ****s are LOL