Should Europe support the US in its upcoming struggle with China ?

[Evilroddy]

If China launches an attack first on US territory (embassies I am unsure about) then yes as this would be a NATO Article 5 matter so much of Europe would be obliged to support the USA. IF the US initiates war with China or has ships sunk on the high seas or in the Chinese littoral as it tries to intimidate China militarily, then no.

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy.

 

[Luce]

No. America wants to leave everyone else twisting in the wind, why the hell would anyone help the US?

 

[panic buyer]

No. America wants to leave everyone else twisting in the wind, why the hell would anyone help the US?

I would not be gappy if british troopswent to war to protect Trump Corp investmenrs, Even less if they were led by Hegseth.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Then maybe we should avoid that.

We can try. If we can protect Taiwan diplomatically, that is a better option than going to war.

But wargames throughout the Cold War have made it pretty clear that any open warfare between us and a peer power will always escalate to all-out nuclear war.

But that's the outcome of the CIA coup, a military dictatorship that enslaved its people for decades.

True. But that doesn't mean it was the reason why we did it.

Got any evidence to back that up?

I'm sure if the Iraq Body Count website is still up, they describe their methodology somewhere.

Except you are arguing the US should be similar to the old European Colonial empires, starting wars and supporting dictatorships simply to further business interests. What you are arguing for is for America to become something akin to the old European Colonial Empires.

I don't know what old empires did or didn't do, but business interests can be legitimate interests. Quite often third world banana republics will try to use their meager military power to steal from our corporations. If we smash up a few of those banana republics and force them to play fairly, that's not a bad thing.

Anyone can have any opinion they want, though some are just delusional.

Mine are never delusional.

While it is not the reason why we went to war with Iraq, the Iraq war allowed us to withdraw our troops from Saudi Arabia. This greatly furthered the cause of the War on Terror.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

If China launches an attack first on US territory (embassies I am unsure about) then yes as this would be a NATO Article 5 matter so much of Europe would be obliged to support the USA. IF the US initiates war with China or has ships sunk on the high seas or in the Chinese littoral as it tries to intimidate China militarily, then no.

How about if China invades Taiwan (without attacking the US), and the US then voluntarily enters the war to defend Taiwan?

 

[Evilroddy]

How about if China invades Taiwan (without attacking the US), and the US then voluntarily enters the war to defend Taiwan?

Toggle Almendro:

If the US enters a war of choice and its territory is not attacked, then no, Europe and other NATO countries should stay out.

If we reverse the situation a bit and postulate that several European countries decide to send military forces into Ukraine and enter into direct combat with Russian forces there while also launch attacks on Russia proper, would the US enter the war along with the European combatants?

Be well and be safe.
Evilroddy

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Obviously the simple nswer is no, Let them get on with it. But the US will not always be run by trump.
His craziness will soon be for gotten and we need to look beyond that dark shadow.
Obviously countries will need a lot of convincing that the US deserves suppoer but reluctantly I dont think it should be dismissed out of hand.

Trump isn’t the problem. Americans are the problem. Trump is merely a symptom.

 

[iguanaman]

China has no plan to take the U.S. on directly. It's not a war, economically or militarily they are sure they can win. They'll do what they always do, sneak around and make deals with make moves when we have weak ass leaders.

Like now? Are you finally realizing that Trump is the weakest President in history and China is thumbing their nose at us?

 

[iguanaman]

Trump isn’t the problem. Americans are the problem. Trump is merely a symptom.

Democracy is the problem you mean. Even the Greeks found that demagogues are the flaw in democracies. The lure of the demagogue is puzzling to me but I can't deny it exists.

 

[Luce]

I would not be gappy if british troopswent to war to protect Trump Corp investmenrs, Even less if they were led by Hegseth.

Trump has already said we will not honor our NATO article 5 commitments, so you would be foolish to get involved in his squabbles.

Europe is going to have to get used to the idea that America is useless and reshape your defense accordingly. On the plus side, you can safely ignore anything the USA wants you to do.

 

[Luce]

Democracy is the problem you mean. Even the Greeks found that demagogues are the flaw in democracies. The lure of the demagogue is puzzling to me but I can't deny it exists.

Demagogues are a symptom. They typically gain traction when the population of a democracy grows weary of the burden of self-rule.

 

[iguanaman]

I think China will be weighing trumps lack of a spine and looking over to Taiwan. Its odds on he would let them have it.

Of course Trump will let China have Taiwan. He is doing his best to hand Ukraine to Putin right now.

 

[iguanaman]

Demagogues are a symptom. They typically gain traction when the population of a democracy grows weary of the burden of self-rule.

I think it is more complicated than that. Populism has gained traction here more than once.

Methods Demagogues Use

• Emotional Appeals:
  They whip up passions and stoke fears by exploiting public anger, prejudice, and distrust.
  
• Scapegoating:
  Demagogues identify an "out-group" or "enemy" (such as elites or minority groups) and blame them for the problems facing the "people".
  
• Promises and Slogans:
  They offer grand, often unrealistic, promises and simple solutions to complex issues, like unemployment or poor healthcare, creating a sense of hope.
  
• Inflammatory Rhetoric:
  They use loud, bawdy language, foul jokes, and outright lies to gain attention and rally crowds.
  
• "Us vs. Them" Narratives:
  They frame political disagreements in absolute terms of good versus evil or "The People" versus "The Elites," creating a clear ideological battleground.
  

The Role of Social Media

• Direct Communication:
  Social media platforms allow demagogues to bypass traditional news media, communicate directly with supporters, and control their own narrative.
• Information Control:
  They use these platforms to highlight favorable stories and bury others, influencing public perception and coverage decisions by other news outlets.
• "Participatory Propaganda":
  Social media becomes a stage for supporters to express their loyalty, sometimes embracing misinformation to signal their support for their leader.

How Supporters Respond

• Tribal Identity:
  Accepting the demagogue's lies becomes a signal of belonging and tribal identity, reinforcing loyalty.
  
• Perception of Authenticity:
  Supporters may perceive the demagogue as authentic and sincere, even if they are lying, as a sign of being "one of the people".
  
• Emotional Connection:
  Demagogues connect with the public's emotions, making them feel heard and understood, even if the solutions offered are nonsensical or harmful.
• https://www.google.com/search?q=how...CCLACAfEFFoqyNlExesA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Risky Thicket]

Obviously the simple nswer is no, Let them get on with it. But the US will not always be run by trump.
His craziness will soon be for gotten and we need to look beyond that dark shadow.
Obviously countries will need a lot of convincing that the US deserves suppoer but reluctantly I dont think it should be dismissed out of hand.

As a nation the United States has reached a point where our President postures himself as the voice of the people. When Europe or any other region on earth considers taking a position to support or not to support the U.S. that region is now forced to consider Donald Trump not the will of the American people but rather the will of Donald J. Trump. The will of Donald Trump and the will of the American people are NOT the same thing. That is fact.

Trump will, sooner or later, no longer hold the office as POTUS ...but will Trump's departure change the will of the American people? We don't know. Will JD Vance's time in office reflect and enforce Trump policies and standards? Or will Vance become the next American nightmare? No one knows.

It is serious business. If I were to advise Europe I'd say, "We Americans would like to believe that we are no longer part of the Trump nightmare, but we cannot say how long it will take to put our nation back on the track to democracy and freedom."

I cannot in truth say that you should trust my country again ...or when.

 

[Luce]

Obviously the simple nswer is no, Let them get on with it. But the US will not always be run by trump.
His craziness will soon be for gotten and we need to look beyond that dark shadow.
Obviously countries will need a lot of convincing that the US deserves suppoer but reluctantly I dont think it should be dismissed out of hand.

We'll just find another one like him.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Obviously the simple nswer is no, Let them get on with it. But the US will not always be run by trump.
His craziness will soon be for gotten and we need to look beyond that dark shadow.
Obviously countries will need a lot of convincing that the US deserves suppoer but reluctantly I dont think it should be dismissed out of hand.

LOL, no, the Europe is in the same boat as China when it comes to trade with the US.

As for any "struggle" between the US and China, it will be the fault of those two nations to hash out. Europe has enough to deal with when it comes to Ukraine and Russia, and thanks to Trump Putin is more empowered to continue blasting away at Ukraine for the foreseeable future for Europe to be bothered with yet another temper tantrum mess between the US and China.

 

[panic buyer]

LOL, no, the Europe is in the same boat as China when it comes to trade with the US.

As for any "struggle" between the US and China, it will be the fault of those two nations to hash out. Europe has enough to deal with when it comes to Ukraine and Russia, and thanks to Trump Putin is more empowered to continue blasting away at Ukraine for the foreseeable future for Europe to be bothered with yet another temper tantrum mess between the US and China.

Russia has stepped up its bombings since the alaska farce.