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A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
I don't agree with any civil forfeiture before a guilty verdict is handed down. Once a guilty verdict is handed down I have no problem with forfeiture of defendant's property. Now where I am still on the fence about is whether or not that should apply to property not owned by the defendant but used in a crime. A house is the perfect example. If a defendant is found guilty and drugs or money were found in the home and the home belongs to someone else, I am on the fence about whether that property should be included in forfeiture if the owner was unaware of any illegal activities.
That's exactly how it used to be, before the mid-eighties and Reagan's War on Drugs.I don't agree with any civil forfeiture before a guilty verdict is handed down. Once a guilty verdict is handed down I have no problem with forfeiture of defendant's property. Now where I am still on the fence about is whether or not that should apply to property not owned by the defendant but used in a crime. A house is the perfect example. If a defendant is found guilty and drugs or money were found in the home and the home belongs to someone else, I am on the fence about whether that property should be included in forfeiture if the owner was unaware of any illegal activities.
EDIT: So I put yes it should exist for the defendant on trial, but just want to clarify, not before a guilty verdict is handed down by a court.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.
Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?
I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.
The only reason people support this kind of **** is that of white privilege. They're confident that their status in society will make them immune from it, and they trust the police to only use it to hurt people who truly deserve it. They're the same **** heads who support the militarization of police and say blue lives matter. They're confident that the average police officer is as white and as racist as they are so it's only the undesirables that will feel the brunt of police mistreatment.
The only branch of law enforcement these **** heads don't like is the FBI because it's the only one that's coming after them.
So, you're fine with people's houses taken away just because there's drugs in there, something that shouldn't even be illegal in the first place.
I'm sorry, but I may be misinterpreting the spirit of your post, but it sounds a whole lot like, 'well, they're criminals, so **** 'em, go ahead and take their **** on top of locking them up!'
We live in a country with one of the highest, if not the highest rates of incarceration, fueled by for-profit-prisons and an injust drug war that boils down to basically being a war on the lower classes. I am absolutely not fine with seizing the property of convicts. Book 'em, sentence, make them serve out their time, but do not exploit them.
That's exactly how it used to be, before the mid-eighties and Reagan's War on Drugs.
Up until then, the accused first had to be found criminally guilty of running a criminal for-profit enterprise (not merely possession, but dealing for profit). After a guilty dealing verdict, the state had to do a separate civil case demonstrating the convicted had profited from his crimes, and only then could a judge rule for forfeiture. I seem to recall the forfeiture amount would not exceed the criminal profits generated, but can't state that definitively.
It never ceases to amaze me that civil asset forfeiture is a thing that can exist in any Western Democracy. In a sane universe, the revelation that asset forfeiture would be made public, there would be a huge scandal, and then asset forfeiture would be immediately done away with. This does not appear to be that universe.
OK let me ask you this (BTW I am opposed to the war on drugs but for the purpose of this discussion, we will assume it is a legitimate area of law enforcement)
here is a case I tried
30 something guy with dubious sources of legitimate income (stuff that could not be confirmed) is busted with 150K of weed in his house and lots of cash, etc) He is arrested and convicted of trafficking and most of the money is criminally forfeited.
DEA Task force gets a tip that he had stashed another 250 K in his parents' house. TF goes to the home on a warrant. They find the safe that was identified by the mope's brother as belong to the mope. The mother is at work-the stepfather of the dealer says he hasn't any clue what is in the safe or what the combination is. Mother returns home./ Her son's phone is tapped (she didn't know that and we couldn't tell that to the jury for reasons not relevant here). She asks him what the combination is and opens the safe-over 200K in bills packaged exactly like the bills at the dealers' home
Dealer denies the money is his. Mom Claims it is her savings. A forensic accountant examines her finances-testifies uncontradicted-that the woman-despite her 85K-95K (depending on overtime) salary per year was NOT sufficient to generate that much cash. Three different trained dogs HIT on the cash. Jury finds that she was not the owner of the cash and it is CIVILLY forfeited to the US Government
now the mother was not charged with trafficking or drug possession or drug abuse.
was that action proper by the feds?
Rat effect
A similar incident occurred in Hanoi, Vietnam, under French colonial rule. The colonial regime created a bounty program that paid a reward for each rat killed. To obtain the bounty, people would provide the severed rat tail. Colonial officials, however, began noticing rats in Hanoi with no tails. The Vietnamese rat catchers would capture rats, lop off their tails, and then release them back into the sewers so that they could procreate and produce more rats, thereby increasing the rat catchers' revenue. Historian Michael Vann argues that the cobra example from British India cannot be proven, but that the rats in Vietnam case can be proven, so the term could be changed to the "rat effect".
To me civil foreiture is a violation of the constitution.
if any government agent wants to take my stuff they should first have to prove it in a court of law.
me walking down the street with 10k or 20k dollars in my pocket is 100% legal and constitutional and none
of the government business as to why i have it.
also even if the government seizes my items they are 100% responsible for returning every bit of it back too me if i am cleared of any and all charges.
why courts let them get away with is gross blatant unconstitutional theft is beyond me.
That's a nice anecdote, but it does nothing to get to the heart of whether civil asset forfeiture has become systemically abused in order to fund police departments. Your post is basically an argument that the intentions justify any outcome.
The genesis of the practice and its outcome is analogous to the "Rat Effect":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
So did the intentions for the bounty make it a resounding success when the outcome is factored in?
you ignore the obvious ramifications. If people who have made money illicitly can give that money to confederates for safekeeping, and since the confederates themselves are not part of the actual narcotics trafficking, that means the money cannot be touched by the government
Exactly the same arguments apply to "red flag" laws which allow the "temporary" taking of guns (imposing a sentence) and then (maybe?) holding a due process hearing on "the matter" (up to a year?) later.
Which, again, does nothing to address the fact that it has been systematically abused in order to fund police departments.
OK let me ask you this (BTW I am opposed to the war on drugs but for the purpose of this discussion, we will assume it is a legitimate area of law enforcement)
here is a case I tried
30 something guy with dubious sources of legitimate income (stuff that could not be confirmed) is busted with 150K of weed in his house and lots of cash, etc) He is arrested and convicted of trafficking and most of the money is criminally forfeited.
DEA Task force gets a tip that he had stashed another 250 K in his parents' house. TF goes to the home on a warrant. They find the safe that was identified by the mope's brother as belong to the mope. The mother is at work-the stepfather of the dealer says he hasn't any clue what is in the safe or what the combination is. Mother returns home./ Her son's phone is tapped (she didn't know that and we couldn't tell that to the jury for reasons not relevant here). She asks him what the combination is and opens the safe-over 200K in bills packaged exactly like the bills at the dealers' home
Dealer denies the money is his. Mom Claims it is her savings. A forensic accountant examines her finances-testifies uncontradicted-that the woman-despite her 85K-95K (depending on overtime) salary per year was NOT sufficient to generate that much cash. Three different trained dogs HIT on the cash. Jury finds that she was not the owner of the cash and it is CIVILLY forfeited to the US Government
now the mother was not charged with trafficking or drug possession or drug abuse.
was that action proper by the feds?
Yes because you went after it in a court and I presume you used the court to seize it until disposition is made. A jury made that decision. The government did not. That particular case is a dispute on ownership of property.
I like forfeiture as a penalty, after they have been tried and convicted by a jury of their peers. As for seizing assets in total and preventing them from being used to defend oneself in trial before one is convicted. Absolutely not. I believe there must be a conviction that must proceed any forfeiture of funds. The government must PROVE its case. If they have one then they will be able overcome the defense attorneys and convince a jury their case is legitimate and correct, with the benefit of being challenged most likely by competent counsel and subjecting the case in question to the crucible.
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