Should Canada join the EU?

[Brusan]

Maybe, but the fact remains that they were not economically viable, despite being a kick ass plane. Also, tactics had changed, so an interceptor wasn't as necessary. (I'm doing my research as I write this, I'm no military history buff, outside of WW2 documentaries...but I just do that to keep my man card current and up to date...hehe) The biggest problem with the Arrow is that we simply couldn't sell them.

Dig into the "why" of "we couldn't sell them".

 

[Allan]

Canada should not sacrifice its sovereignty to the USA OR the EU. It is doing fine as an independent country.

Well except for the tariffs and territorial threats.

 

[OlNate]

You have other difficult terrain. Iraq and Afghanistan also lacked jungles. Plus, your country is VAST. Taking the cities would be no problem. Securing the country as a whole would be a nightmare.

America has never won against LIC.

Something like 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the border. North of that is tough, tough territory. New Canadians would suffer greatly, and urban Canadians would have no idea of what to do. Food supplies would be limited to what one could hunt and gather, suplemented with a smallish garden for personal consumption if the household was lucky enough to have the knowledge and the materials (seeds, etc).

I have a place in mind to go should everything go bonkers. But even given fact that I grew up in the North, know how to hunt and fish, and the fact that my wife is an excellent gardener, I would not call any of this "easy". It's tough for tough people. Most of us aren't all that tough anymore - not in that direction, anyway. Take away grocery stores, hospitals, electricity, big box hardware stores, and we're in bad shape. There's not even all that many roads up there.

Nah, man, if America decides to go to war war with us, we're waving the white flag. Of course, America immediately becomes North Korea / Russia with that move, so I don't think it's likely to happen...which, given the above, is definitely for the best.

 

[OlNate]

Odd that both the US and the UK kept developing and producing them.

They were able to produce theirs much cheaper and faster than we could produce the Arrow.

 

[Luce]

Something like 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the border. North of that is tough, tough territory. New Canadians would suffer greatly, and urban Canadians would have no idea of what to do. Food supplies would be limited to what one could hunt and gather, suplemented with a smallish garden for personal consumption if the household was lucky enough to have the knowledge and the materials (seeds, etc).

You wouldn't move your general population. Everyone would die.

I was thinking more along the distance between Canadian cities (excepting of course the stretch between Hamilton and Toronto, which is now also city).

 

[OlNate]

Dig into the "why" of "we couldn't sell them".

Again, many reasons, mostly tied to cost and changing Russian tactics, specifically the move from manned bombing runs to rocket propelled ICBMs, from what I can tell at a quick glance.

 

[OlNate]

You wouldn't move your general population. Everyone would die.

I was thinking more along the distance between Canadian cities (excepting of course the stretch between Hamilton and Toronto, which is now also city).

But that entire distance is just a stone's throw from America. I don't imagine you'd come across the Peace bridge and go left and right.

I think the reality is that whether we keep people where they are, or if we move them, they die. The only way to survive is to surrender, the only hope is that economic factors will dissuade.

 

[Luce]

But that entire distance is just a stone's throw from America. I don't imagine you'd come across the Peace bridge and go left and right.

I think the reality is that whether we keep people where they are, or if we move them, they die. The only way to survive is to surrender, the only hope is that economic factors will dissuade.

It's a matter of frontage.

The area of Canada that is densely occupied is 585,000 square miles.

Cities require garrison of 25 soldiers per 1000 inhabitants. So basically 820 soldiers (average) per city. In Ontario alone, that's going to account for a few divisions.

In between, you need 5 soldiers per 10 square miles. That comes up to another several divisions, because you also have to take terrain into account.

It is worth noting that the US army only has 10 infantry divisions total. If you use other types of units, the requirements go way up.

The USA could take Canada but could not occupy it. We simply don't have the troops to pull it off without uncovering ourselves.

 

[Allan]

Quick - everyone buy a drone!

 

[beefheart]

I wish they would, then I could move there! I have EU passport

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I'm mostly interested in how Canadians and Europeans feel about this.

Speaking as someone who knows what we have lost by leaving: the benefits are more than just economic and more than just trade. There are things that some in Canada would balk at - the EU budget and how it decides to prioritise spending could be an issue.
Basically, member countries either put money into a pot or receive and it's then hopefully dished out to help develop the poorer regions of Europe as well as protect certain communities. You also get the benefit of collective bargaining when it comes to dealing with giants like China, the USA, India etc as well as some of the mega-corporations. Little Luxembourg could never hold Apple or Google to account and force them to comply with common power chargers (one example) or force them to delete old data (another example.)
You also get free travel, common worker's rights and healthcare - so if you travel to work in one country and become unwell for example, the same right to free healthcare is given as to natural citizens. If you wanted to go to work in another EU nation, you could (subject to proving that you weren't going to drain the new host nation resources) travel and work freely without needing a visa.
Your universities, colleges and schools could take part in the Erasmus or Leonardo programs and you would have Canadian students allowed to travel to study for up to a year in another nation or have exchange visits of varying length and there would be reciprocal agreements for other EU students.

Sovereignty was a largely falsehood that Brexit used to sell the leave campaign. The only thing you couldn't do as a member was strike a free trade deal with say China or the USA and then become a back door into the EU for goods that would otherwise be banned. On the other hand, as a small member like Luxembourg again - you could sit at the same table as China and have 26 other nations with you in armwrestling the Chinese dealers. On sovereignty, if France wanted to start a war with Mongolia - nothing in the EU rules prevents that. There's a lot more like that within the foundations of the EU.

New members also have to agree to swap currency to the euro; however if Canada was actually part of the European continent and wanted to join - I'm pretty sure a delay could be agreed, and with no end date to the agreement.
Other things that would hit would be environment laws, "no" to the death penalty, but you could also join several scientific groups to mutually develop new technologies.

I don't think you CAN join the EU.

The EU does demand that membership is based on being a European nation but that didn't stop Turkey / Georgia and other near-Asian nations like Armenia seeking to join.

Enlargement: how do countries join the EU? | Topics | European Parliament

Find out how enlargement works and how countries can join the European Union.

www.europarl.europa.eu

Personally, I think they won't let muslim nations join - certainly France and a couple of others blocked Turkey's bid several times while other nations like Poland / Slovakia etc did not have a 40 year wait and still unable to join.

But you can make trade deals with the bloc as a whole.

I'd defer to @PeteEU here but as I see it there are three levels of trade deal

• Full EU member's entitlements - no barriers to goods and services, common standards and free movement of people.
• European Free Trade Area - with members like Norway, Switzerland etc who have to follow EU trade practices but can strike their own deals with 3rd parties. You have no say over the creation of rules and processes as that is for member nations alone.
• Free Trade Agreements - such as the EU has with Canada, China etc. Goods and services within agreed areas have most if not all trade barriers removed.

 

[Luce]

I wish they would, then I could move there!

But then you'd still be here.

 

[Allan]

Speaking as someone who knows what we have lost by leaving: the benefits are more than just economic and more than just trade. There are things that some in Canada would balk at - the EU budget and how it decides to prioritise spending could be an issue.
Basically, member countries either put money into a pot or receive and it's then hopefully dished out to help develop the poorer regions of Europe as well as protect certain communities. You also get the benefit of collective bargaining when it comes to dealing with giants like China, the USA, India etc as well as some of the mega-corporations. Little Luxembourg could never hold Apple or Google to account and force them to comply with common power chargers (one example) or force them to delete old data (another example.)
You also get free travel, common worker's rights and healthcare - so if you travel to work in one country and become unwell for example, the same right to free healthcare is given as to natural citizens. If yu wanted to go to work in another EU nation, you could (subject to proving that you weren't going to drain the new host nation resources)
Your universities, colleges and schools could take part in the Erasmus or Leonardo programs and you would have Canadian students allowed to travel to study for up to a year in another nation or have exchange visits of varying length and there would be reciprocal agreements for other EU students.

Sovereignty was a largely falsehood that Brexit used to sell the leave campaign. The only thing you couldn't do as a member was strike a free trade deal with say China or the USA and then become a back door into the EU for goods that would otherwise be banned. On the other hand, as a small member like Luxembourg again - you could sit at the same table as China and have 26 other nations with you in armwrestling the Chinese dealers. On sovereignty, if France wanted to start a war with Mongolia - nothing in the EU rules prevents that. There's a lot more like that within the foundations of the EU.

New members also have to agree to swap currency to the euro; however if Canada was actually part of the European continent and wanted to join - I'm pretty sure a delay could be agreed, and with no end date to the agreement.
Other things that would hit would be environment laws, "no" to the death penalty, but you could also join several scientific groups to mutually develop new technologies.



The EU does demand that membership is based on being a European nation but that didn't stop Turkey / Georgia and other near-Asian nations like Armenia seeking to join.

Enlargement: how do countries join the EU? | Topics | European Parliament

Find out how enlargement works and how countries can join the European Union.

www.europarl.europa.eu

Personally, I think they won't let muslim nations join - certainly France and a couple of others blocked Turkey's bid several times while other nations like Poland / Slovakia etc did not have a 40 year wait and still unable to join.



I'd defer to @PeteEU here but as I see it there are three levels of trade deal
Full EU member's entitlements - no barriers to goods and services, common standards and free movement of people.
European Free Trade Area - with members like Norway, Switzerland etc who have to follow EU trade practices but can strike their own deals with 3rd parties. You have no say over the creation of rules and processes as that is for member nations alone.
Free Trade Agreements - such as the EU has with Canada, China etc. Goods and services within agreed areas have most if not all trade barriers removed.

This is great information. Thanks for posting it.

Hey would you happen to have a guest room? Asking for 40 million friends

 

[Ikari]

I suppose that's up to Canada. A North America alliance makes more sense, but we have an unhinged, senile dingbat in charge right now, so there's not a lot of hope for that.

 

[Allan]

A North America alliance makes more sense, but we have an unhinged, senile dingbat in

RIP to that.

Mourning over - time to move on.

 

[phoenix2020]

Yes to pretty much all of this.

Look, it's obvious who calls the shots in America, and that's their corporations. At some point they will object to all the added cost associated with Trump's little dick energy. What he's doing simply isn't sustainable. I favor an approach that leaves room for that.

You should be aware that Trump is backed by some 80 million MAGA who now all believe that Canada has no future except as a 51st state, and nothing will ever change their mind. Those people will be around long after a Trump is gone.

 

[OlNate]

You should be aware that Trump is backed by some 80 million MAGA who now all believe that Canada has no future except as a 51st state, and nothing will ever change their mind. Those people will be around long after a Trump is gone.

We'll see. Again, if push comes to shove, we're done anyway. I'm hoping that once the fever has subsided, common sense will return. We all get caught up in stuff. I might be a naive dumbass, but the alternative is too depressing. When there's no strategic advantage to cynicism, I choose to be optimistic. If I'm wrong, it's not going to matter anyway.

 

[Luce]

I suppose that's up to Canada. A North America alliance makes more sense, but we have an unhinged, senile dingbat in charge right now, so there's not a lot of hope for that.

That was never possible. At least not since the 1980s.

 

[JohnRawls]

It's obvious America is at the very least an unreliable trading partner. They are also imo an economic and territorial threat.

Should we seek to join the EU? European countries would salivate at the opportunity to access our natural resources.

We are culturally and politically more closely aligned with Europe than the US. We share a Westminster Parliamentary system and Head of State with the UK (which is not an EU member). We have a strong historical connection with France.

I'm mostly interested in how Canadians and Europeans feel about this.

The article below discusses the possibility in more detail.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canada-european-union-1.7446400

In a very theoretical world when there is nothing else besides joining and not joining then obviously yes, you would culturally fit in the EU very easily, far better than the UK even. More like The Netherlands actually in my opinion.

But then reality kinda hits hard. You are close to America, you can't join because of your trade ties to America that you would have trouble with when EU trade rules with America kick in which obviously you won't like.

So as a fantasy if there was no consequences: Yes. In reality NO though because it will hurt you economically and you don't join the EU to be hurt economically. Your trade with the EU is far less important than your trade with the US and any benefit the free trade with EU will give you, you will loose more in your trade with the US. It will take years to adapt and outgrow the loss. May be even a decade for your whole economic model.

 

[Allan]

That was never possible. At least not since the 1980s.

What happened in the '80s?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Hey would you happen to have a guest room? Asking for 40 million friends

Sadly, Britain blew it and we left the EU but if we were still in - I would love to have Canada join.

 

[Bighorn66]

It's obvious America is at the very least an unreliable trading partner. They are also imo an economic and territorial threat.

Should we seek to join the EU? European countries would salivate at the opportunity to access our natural resources.

We are culturally and politically more closely aligned with Europe than the US. We share a Westminster Parliamentary system and Head of State with the UK (which is not an EU member). We have a strong historical connection with France.

I'm mostly interested in how Canadians and Europeans feel about this.

The article below discusses the possibility in more detail.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canada-european-union-1.7446400

You should go back to being a colony of the UK. That’s the perfect fit.

 

[Peter]

While I'd absoluetly love Canada to join the EU the problem is the name.

They would have to bin the E bit and just be the U.

 

[Allan]

You should go back to being a colony of the UK. That’s the perfect fit.

Well this is even dumber than usual.

 

[Peter]

Canada should just start joining all the clubs Trump has said he hates.

BRICS is obvious so join that post haste.
Change the money to any currency Trump hates the most.
I'm sure he has something against Team Tempest for the UK, Itally and Japan making a combat aircraft and not buying American so join that.

Just go crazy and join it all.