Serious question to the creationists

[Amadeus]

I believe that whatever the details of how life came to be on Earth, God was in charge from the beginning and all unfolded according to His will.

If could be said that if God is everywhere doing everything, he might as well be nowhere.

 

[nota bene]

If could be said that if God is everywhere doing everything, he might as well be nowhere.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Amadeus]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm saying that if God controls everything -- that if evolution is God, gravity is God, time is God -- that all you're really doing is ascribing intelligence to natural phenomena.

 

[nota bene]

I'm saying that if God controls everything -- that if evolution is God, gravity is God, time is God -- that all you're really doing is ascribing intelligence to natural phenomena.

Thank you for clarifying. I think too often in our earnest desire to understand, we are limited by our frame of reference. Alexander Pope wrote about this long ago in his Essay on Man (Epistle I)--that we can reason only from what we know: "Through worlds unnumber'd though the God be known,/ 'Tis ours to trace him only in our own. "

And that's the thing--we don't know everything and can't comprehend the incomprehensible, and so we are inclined to reduce the Creator to fit into our limited understanding, our little "God-box," if you will.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Huh. How about that. Sneaky mumbo jumbo puts people in hypnotic trances unaware. Okay.

Have you ever watched a stage hypnotist?

Here is an example of the opening your mind to suggestion thing;

Start with gibberish.

Thank you for clarifying. I think too often in our earnest desire to understand, we are limited by our frame of reference. Alexander Pope wrote about this long ago in his Essay on Man (Epistle I)--that we can reason only from what we know: "Through worlds unnumber'd though the God be known,/ 'Tis ours to trace him only in our own. "

Them immediately fire in anything which has a God bit in it.

And that's the thing--we don't know everything and can't comprehend the incomprehensible, and so we are inclined to reduce the Creator to fit into our limited understanding, our little "God-box," if you will.

Try to make the God bit somehow highlighted.

 

[humbolt]

Have you ever watched a stage hypnotist?

Yes, but that's not relevant. You didn't answer my original question, BTW.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Yes, but that's not relevant. You didn't answer my original question, BTW.

What question?

And yes it is. Same tricks.

 

[Amadeus]

Thank you for clarifying. I think too often in our earnest desire to understand, we are limited by our frame of reference. Alexander Pope wrote about this long ago in his Essay on Man (Epistle I)--that we can reason only from what we know: "Through worlds unnumber'd though the God be known,/ 'Tis ours to trace him only in our own. "

And that's the thing--we don't know everything and can't comprehend the incomprehensible, and so we are inclined to reduce the Creator to fit into our limited understanding, our little "God-box," if you will.

I understand, I just think that attaching God to everything you don't understand is lazy (not that you do it, but many do). It shuts down the search for the true answer. Maybe God is in the equation somewhere, maybe he's not. I have my opinion as an atheist.

I do like the Hindu interpretation of God, that he is a vibration that permeates throughout all of creation. I would be more inclined to view God in that context than as an entity who pulls the levers of evolution and such.

 

[humbolt]

What question?

And yes it is. Same tricks.

I asked for your bona fides to make the determination that theologies practice hypnotism during their services. You haven't provided anything other than a statement that "it's obvious". I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you're repeating something you read on the internet rather than offering an individual assessment based on your proven expertise. You have an excellent opportunity here to prove me incorrect.

 

[Tim the plumber]

I asked for your bona fides to make the determination that theologies practice hypnotism during their services. You haven't provided anything other than a statement that "it's obvious". I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you're repeating something you read on the internet rather than offering an individual assessment based on your proven expertise. You have an excellent opportunity here to prove me incorrect.

I don't need to have any credentials to have an opinion nor is that opinion wrong because it's just mine.

I have never read anything along those lines on the net or anywhere else.

I have watched Derren Brown (I think that's how you spell him) on the TV where he makes people who are atheists believe they have had a "God experience" through the use of suggestive techniques. That was informative but I had already come to the conclusion that the whole process was hypnotically based.

Which 3 repeated mantras does your church use?

 

[Dittohead not!]

So apart from wanting there to be a Fairy God Father watching over you is there any argument or evidence that there is?

It's a matter of belief and faith, just as a belief that life on Earth serves no purpose is a matter of belief and faith.

Do you believe that we have a soul that continues on after the body is dead?

 

[Tim the plumber]

It's a matter of belief and faith, just as a belief that life on Earth serves no purpose is a matter of belief and faith.

Sorry the default position is that it does not exist until there is something that suggests it does. Just like AGW. Evidence is required.

Do you believe that we have a soul that continues on after the body is dead?

No, I see no evidence to support that idea.

 

[Tim the plumber]

I asked for your bona fides to make the determination that theologies practice hypnotism during their services. You haven't provided anything other than a statement that "it's obvious". I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think you're repeating something you read on the internet rather than offering an individual assessment based on your proven expertise. You have an excellent opportunity here to prove me incorrect.

If you need the word of a professional hypnotist in this then a brief look at google has come back with this;

There is another thing about the born-agains in particular that I have noticed. A disturbingly large number of them seem to be able to lose themselves in the moment, to achieve total concentration, to become totally rapt in prayer, even when ‘speaking in tongues.’ I have seen these symptoms many times before – on the stage and in private practice. It is exactly, and I do mean exactly, the same phenomenon that makes for a really good hypnotic subject.

From Hypnosis in Religion » Andrew Newton Hypnosis - The Worlds Most Experienced Hypnotist

 

[Dittohead not!]

The confusion lie in the multiple definitions of the words faith and belief.

If I say that I believe it will soon rain, my belief could be based on mere desire and is more an expression of my hope or desire that it will rain...

Or I can say I believe it will rain soon, because the radar app on my phone shows a huge swath of clouds moving in my direction. In this case my belief is founded on something that from experience I know to be reasonable belief grounded in evidence.

Now in either sentence you can replace the word belief with faith and come to the same conclusion. The religious often conflate the two meanings to confuse people or are confused themselves.

Correct. If you believe it will rain because of weather forecasting, you're basing a belief on fact and observation. If you just want it to rain, your belief is based on nothing. If you hold a prayer vigil asking for rain, and think it will work, that is a belief in the power of prayer. That's why no one believes in evolution. We believe that evolution describes how life came about based on fact and observation, not based on a desire to believe. That's the difference between science and religion.

 

[humbolt]

I don't need to have any credentials to have an opinion nor is that opinion wrong because it's just mine.

I never said you did need credentials. I asked for them as supporting evidence for the validity of your opinion.

I have never read anything along those lines on the net or anywhere else.

Okay.

I have watched Derren Brown (I think that's how you spell him) on the TV where he makes people who are atheists believe they have had a "God experience" through the use of suggestive techniques. That was informative but I had already come to the conclusion that the whole process was hypnotically based.

The Mr. Brown is an illusionist. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps his show is a practice in, gasp, illusion.

Which 3 repeated mantras does your church use?

I don't have a church nor do I have mantras. Plumbers do, though. Hot's on the left, cold's on the right, and crap don't flow uphill. Three mantras that hypnotize plumbers into charging astronomical rates.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Sorry the default position is that it does not exist until there is something that suggests it does. Just like AGW. Evidence is required.



No, I see no evidence to support that idea.

Then I'll add you to my list. You see, I'm keeping a list of people who think humans don't have souls. After we're dead, I'll look them up so I can say, "See? I told you so!".

And if it happens that you're right and I'm wrong, then you'll never even know it.

 

[Tim the plumber]

Then I'll add you to my list. You see, I'm keeping a list of people who think humans don't have souls. After we're dead, I'll look them up so I can say, "See? I told you so!".

And if it happens that you're right and I'm wrong, then you'll never even know it.

Fair enough.

What was it like before you were born?

 

[humbolt]

If you need the word of a professional hypnotist in this then a brief look at google has come back with this;

I didn't say I did. I asked for your experience. I have read what hypnotists say regarding religious experiences.

From Hypnosis in Religion » Andrew Newton Hypnosis - The Worlds Most Experienced Hypnotist

Ah. Sounds like this gentleman has picked the most obviously suggestive experiences and used them as an example of his thesis. It's not a bad idea in an effort to support his belief, but to expand such an idea to that beyond the most obviously suggestive is an unjustified leap for another purpose. I have no doubt that snake handlers and the like have trance-like experiences. Conflating all of religious experience to that of the extreme is illogical, irrational, and a cute trick that's unsupported by anything but the desire to dismiss all religion as quackery based on the actions of a very small and outlying element.

 

[Tim the plumber]

If you need the word of a professional hypnotist in this then a brief look at google has come back with this;

I didn't say I did. I asked for your experience. I have read what hypnotists say regarding religious experiences.





Ah. Sounds like this gentleman has picked the most obviously suggestive experiences and used them as an example of his thesis. It's not a bad idea in an effort to support his belief, but to expand such an idea to that beyond the most obviously suggestive is an unjustified leap for another purpose. I have no doubt that snake handlers and the like have trance-like experiences. Conflating all of religious experience to that of the extreme is illogical, irrational, and a cute trick that's unsupported by anything but the desire to dismiss all religion as quackery based on the actions of a very small and outlying element.

I have never been to a church where the people there speak in tongues, or at least seen that happen.

My experience, which is valid evidence even if you don't want it to be so, is from more normal churches which use hypnotism as a general continuous style. I have even illustrated the technique in use here in this thread.

Post 80 page 8.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Fair enough.

What was it like before you were born?

I don't remember. Of course, I don't remember being an infant, either, do you?

 

[Tim the plumber]

I don't remember. Of course, I don't remember being an infant, either, do you?

My earliest memory is, I think, being bathed in the bathroom basin. I was not walking at the time. 9 months???

 

[Dittohead not!]

My earliest memory is, I think, being bathed in the bathroom basin. I was not walking at the time. 9 months???

You must have quite a memory. I don't remember anything before about 4 years old or so, and very little from then. Now, if you don't remember your mom feeding you a bottle/breast and changing your diapers, does that mean it didn't happen?

 

[humbolt]

I have never been to a church where the people there speak in tongues, or at least seen that happen.

My experience, which is valid evidence even if you don't want it to be so, is from more normal churches which use hypnotism as a general continuous style. I have even illustrated the technique in use here in this thread.

Post 80 page 8.

If you're looking for it, I have no doubt you can find it. I attend no formal church, although I did for years. Nobody was hypnotized during those services that I know of. There are people who perhaps become hypnotized by particular cadences in speech, but that would not be limited to some church experiences alone. That would include political speech and a host of other events, including sales pitches. None of this has anything whatever to do with real religious experience. I would also suggest that significant religious experiences are nearly always extremely personal, generally don't occur during church services, and are not necessarily an outcome of prayer or even related to it.

 

[Tim the plumber]

You must have quite a memory. I don't remember anything before about 4 years old or so, and very little from then. Now, if you don't remember your mom feeding you a bottle/breast and changing your diapers, does that mean it didn't happen?

No, but I have evidence that did happen. I have seen other babies and know what they do. I must have come from somewhere and there is nothing to suggest that the normal process did not happen to me.

I have no evidence that I or anybody else has a soul. There is a lot of evidence that lots of people want to have that soul thing.

 

[Tim the plumber]

If you're looking for it, I have no doubt you can find it. I attend no formal church, although I did for years. Nobody was hypnotized during those services that I know of. There are people who perhaps become hypnotized by particular cadences in speech, but that would not be limited to some church experiences alone. That would include political speech and a host of other events, including sales pitches. None of this has anything whatever to do with real religious experience. I would also suggest that significant religious experiences are nearly always extremely personal, generally don't occur during church services, and are not necessarily an outcome of prayer or even related to it.

You do understand that that is exactly right and that that still means that church services employ hypnotism. The religious experiences created by Derren Brown did not have to happen when he was there. Suggestion is a very powerful thing.

The way I have been communicating in this thread is not at all hypnotic. I keep my sentences short with clear meaning in them. So do you. When you encounter burbling drivel and the occasional salesman's shoulder slap beware. Knowing what is happening and understanding the process is the best defense.