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Self Defense Scenario - Who is guilty? Of What?

And, further of my personal opinion?

"Strong" Joe is, minimally when drunk/high/drugged up, an extremely abusive bully against women and men. The means he goes thru life making people be miserable and afraid. Accordingly, I see it as Joe finally getting what he had coming and the world a better place without him. That's my own opinion. Why should I - or anyone - possibly care what happened to Joe?
 
I'm not going to debate what is "legal." This not only varies state to state and jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but it also can matter who each person is and what witnesses actually say, plus the attitudes of the local police and DA. In NYC it likely manslaughter. Here, likely not - depending on who Joe and Bob are.

Joe was not just "cat-calling" Bob's fiance'. He was increasingly becoming "lewd," calling her a "hooker" and "skank," and the telling Bob to F-Off,
ROFL... He told Bob to F-Off when Bob threatened to knock out his teeth. It was a response to a threat communicated against him.

continuing to escalate, and the OP states it is clear Joe believes he can take Bob because Joe is "strong."

In that, what is Joe "communicating?" You claim - in effect - Joe is communicating nothing at all. I claim Joe is communicating that he wants a fight with Bob and is escalating exactly towards it.
Yet Bob is the one who had the choice.... and Bob chose to A. Communicate a Threat. B. Attempt to Carry Out that threat, making an assault on Joe imminent.

What is his real alternatives in your view?
Leave the bar.

1. He and his fiancé can stay facing increasing and constant insults, obscenities and belittlement or
2. He can whisper to his fiancé to go to the bathroom, but then quickly go outside and pull the car to the front door, leaving the passenger car door open. Then when he has a clear shot at the door, make a run for it, and jump in the passenger seat shouting to her "go! go! go!" Thereafter, if in a large city avoid all bars in that area and if a small town to never go to bars again in his own town - and to replace his vehicle.
Wow... All that because one drunk dude was horn dogging over his old lady?

You are wayyy out there with your exaggeration.

Unless you have been physically assaulted and pinned down, there is always an option.


This whole, "IM A DUD SO A HAFTA FIGHT BROOOOOOO" **** is retarded, overrated, and not acceptable.
 
1. The OP declares people only can communicate in mono-tone, mono-volume verbal words. In the OP, humans are incapable of facial expressions, incapable of body language, and all sound exactly the same. In fact, people do not just communicate verbally in mono tone.
Umm... I don't see that at all. I just don't see facial expressions mentioned. That does not mean the above.

2. The OP is only Joe, Bob and his fiancé are in the club, for which then suddenly other people are beamed in for Bob to push thru. What other people are doing is very relevant.
It doesn't state they are the only people in the club. Where are you making this **** up from?

3. The OP asserts that in the history of the human race, the only fights have been 1 on 1, and that no one, ever, will come to the aid of another. Did Bob have buddies with him and Joe not, for which Bob then was likely well covered if Joe did a surprise assault knocking Bob down? Where friends of Joe circling around Bob and Bob had no pals?
It doesn't assert that at all.... ... Have you lost your marbles? It is only describing THIS fight.. WHICH HAPPENS TO BE between two people.

4. The OP asserts that Bob's fiancé is a blind, mute paraplegic who can only hear Joe's words. In fact, she could factor in greatly. If I was in that situation, Joe would more need to fear my wife than I, and I would overall face little risk. If Joe tried to blindside me or did and I was then losing? She would kill him - literally and instantly.
Again, I see that nowhere, this is getting quite ****ing retarded to read.

5. That witnesses will tell the truth - assuming they all even know the truth on their memory of what each did and didn't see, hear etc.
They would..... but that won't matter because Bob threatened and then attempted to carry out that threat.

6. There is no description of the bar, what staffing is there etc. Some small bars will only have 1 female bartender and no other staff. Is this a tough bar? Or a high class one? What other people are there? A lot of people who might break it up if something did start? Is there a bouncer? 95% of bars don't have one. Etc.
It does mention a bouncer. And it isn't necessary to mention what class and staffing look like to tell the story.

I could keep going down the list.
Please don't, Your list is ignorant.

There are many reasons why I take the position that if 2 men walking into a conflict, the government (we-the-people) should stay out of it. There are so many variables, unknowns and unknowables, to get it right with certainty is all but impossible. Thus, my view is that Joe OBVIOUSLY was looking for trouble and deliberately making trouble. If Joe died as a result of it, that's just how it goes in conflicts between men.

However, as I noted in my initial comment, in my opinion what Bob should do is dependent upon whether Bob realistically believes he can disable Joe from being able to hurt him, anyone else and then even Joe then not more seriously hurt - or not. If Bob can, he should. If Bob can not, he should calculate the most likely successful fleeing by his fiancé and himself.
There is no need to FLEE if you aren't in engaged in a fight.

Simply walking her out the door without so much as a word to Joe would have sufficed. I have seen **** like that done plenty of times.
 
Umm... I don't see that at all. I just don't see facial expressions mentioned. That does not mean the above.

It doesn't state they are the only people in the club. Where are you making this **** up from?

It doesn't assert that at all.... ... Have you lost your marbles? It is only describing THIS fight.. WHICH HAPPENS TO BE between two people.

Again, I see that nowhere, this is getting quite ****ing retarded to read.

They would..... but that won't matter because Bob threatened and then attempted to carry out that threat.

It does mention a bouncer. And it isn't necessary to mention what class and staffing look like to tell the story.

Please don't, Your list is ignorant.

There is no need to FLEE if you aren't in engaged in a fight.

Simply walking her out the door without so much as a word to Joe would have sufficed. I have seen **** like that done plenty of times.

If you think my list is ignorant, then you have joined the world of zippy pinheads living in a pipedream fantasy world of niceness.

Why won't you at least be honest of what you claim is a person's moral and should-be legal duty:

That a person MUST morally and ethically run away from all bullies OR give the bully anything he wants OR have a duty to allow him/her/themselves to be assaulted to any degree the bully(s) wants to.

Tell me, do you think it then is just fine if the man runs away faster than the woman thus leaving her alone if that is what is necessary to get away before being assaulted? It would seem your answer is an obvious yes.

The world and psychology of "civilized" white people. I can not count how many times I saw them "assaulted" (understatement) it their view that only when direct express statement of intent to do harm is stated or when actually under assault can they take pro-active offensive actions for defensive reasons. This also may be why my wife, who grew up in such civility, found all men interested her to be clumsy, physically incompetent and too danger to consider marrying. He wanted, among other things, an unconfused man who does not have ideals, fears or other distractions in terms of defense of her children, herself or himself - and proven willing and capable to do so - as willing to do so as she herself is.

I saw that instinct in her one time way back before we were a romantic couple - though that her goal. Despite knowing she had never been in any fight of any kind in her life, when she saw 3 guys coming towards me from behind after I had shoved a Joe-like-drunk over a table, she did not hesitate to start pulmetting those 3 men with pool balls like little cannonballs driving them back until I could turn to face them and some of my buddies coming into this too. Yet those 3 men hadn't actually DONE anything yet. Rather, they coming into position to do massive damage to me from behind. That impressed me greatly about her.

Bob warned Joe to stop and he didn't. Instead, Joe directly once more escalated is aggression and now directly at Bob - rather than indirectly at Bob via his fiancé. What Bob did wrong in my view in that he tactically acted incorrectly. Injecting Joe hits his head and dies is just to create the stance that anything but running away from a bully in-your-face makes you a murderer.

What I see is that it was the bully and instigator who died, and Bob and his fiancé - the target of the strong drunk bully - were fully uninjured. I'm a-ok with that outcome. Joe was a bully, substance abuser who cannot control himself, and is abusive towards women including picking strangers to abuse. I don't care that Joe is dead and think the world better of without him. I don't like men who abuse and intimidate women. A lot.
 
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There is no need to FLEE if you aren't in engaged in a fight.

THAT is the ignorant statement. Yeah, and GZ should have just "fled" when Martin was slamming his head into the sidewalk.

"Flee a fight" you are already in is as ignorant as it gets. It's too late to flee. You just have to dutifully take your required being a civilized-man beating and/or death as what is overall best for the common good of society after you dutifully agree you have to let the other person take his best first shot at you first. Meaning then he can do anything he wants to you as long as he wants to for 95% of men.
 
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THAT is the ignorant statement. Yeah, and GZ should have just "fled" when Martin was slamming his head into the sidewalk.
George Zimmerman had not the ability to flee in his situation. It is entirely different.

In THIS case..... Bob wasn't IN a fight..... Bob STARTED a fight by rushing up to Joe to defend his and his lady's honor. That is not worthy of any level of sympathy from me.


"Flee a fight" you are already in is as ignorant as it gets. It's too late to flee. You just have to dutifully take your required being a civilized-man beating and/or death as what is overall best for the common good of society after you dutifully agree you have to let the other person take his best first shot at you first. Meaning then he can do anything he wants to you as long as he wants to for 95% of men.
Maybe you need to re-read the scenario.

Bob started the physical confrontation.... Joe was defending himself from Bob's imminent attack.

One cannot assume Joe was going to attack Bob because he was **** talking (in response to a direct threat from Bob) and macking on Bob's old lady.


You have this whole situation twisted because Joe was the bad guy. And he was..... but because he was being the bad guy doesn't mean he is the one who ultimately acted wrongly.
 
You have this whole situation twisted because Joe was the bad guy. And he was..... but because he was being the bad guy doesn't mean he is the one who ultimately acted wrongly.

"Twisted" my be the understatement of the year.

I really am perplexed as to what mind altering substances joko104 might be under the influence of.
Somehow or another he's completely gone off the deep end with what I wrote in the OP.

Can you imagine him being on a jury regarding this situation? :shock:

The flip side of that is he's got a seriously hyper-active imagination.:lamo
 
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