Secretary of Navy resigns; refuses to follow an illegal order

[jonny5]

When forced to choose who is telling the truth and who is lying, I'll choose to trust Secretary Spencer over the lying, draft-dodging coward-in-chief.

Whats wrong with draft dodging? If there is anything illegal, its forcing citizens into the military and sending them to die somewhere.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Trump is not obstructing demented democrats from fighting against God but he is putting the brakes on their treason and sedition when their fight climbs over the wall of separation between atheistic hedonist uncivilized religious views and the American people..

Your absurd religious zealotry aside, you should learn the definitions of treason and treason.

Example of a military rule for democrat kindergartners: 'Thou shalt not desert thy post in time of war.'

Democrat punishment for desertion in time of war in the Bergdahl case: Send American troops into harms way to retrieve the deserter from the terrorists he has defected to and then release 5 dedicated murderers of American troops back into the wild to entice their barbarian leaders to send the traitor back home to the US. Once the deserter is in custody put him in a comfortable holding area until leftist lawyers can get all charges against him dropped.

Why do you post such lies? Bergdahl was charged by the Obama administration, court-martialed, and given a DISHONORABLE DISCHARGE.

 

[Grandpappy]

Yes, and you evidently don't. You don't murder prisoners or thhave pictures taken posing with their corpses for your amusement. That isn't among the rules of engagement; perhaps you try should study them.

After Trump changed Obama’s rules of engagement, which were counterproductive and frustrating for our soldiers, our forces were able to crush ISIS in short order.
That frustration is one of the reasons these guys were charged. And Gallagher didn’t kill that ISIS murderer, a Navy Corpsman did.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Why are you bringing Clinton into this?

Oh my gosh! You didn't know that Trump, like Clinton, was a lying draft-dodging coward and serial sexual predator? I guess you also didn't know they were great friends.

No need to thank me, I'm here to inform and assist.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Whats wrong with draft dodging? If there is anything illegal, its forcing citizens into the military and sending them to die somewhere.

It was illegal making both Donald Trump and Bill Clinton liars, cowards and draft-dodgers.

 

[ludin]

After Trump changed Obama’s rules of engagement, which were counterproductive and frustrating for our soldiers, our forces were able to crush ISIS in short order.
That frustration is one of the reasons these guys were charged. And Gallagher didn’t kill that ISIS murderer, a Navy Corpsman

I talked to one of our soldiers that was over there. He hated Obama's policy. They were worse than what we ever realized. They were not allowed to engage unless they could identify the target. Ie someone could be shooting at them from a building and they simply couldn't blow the building up.

They had to first identify the shooter ensure no other target was there then send guys into the building. He told me that 99% of the time they call the black water guys to take care of because it as they didn't operate under those engagement terms.

 

[Divine_Wind]

I talked to one of our soldiers that was over there. He hated Obama's policy. They were worse than what we ever realized. They were not allowed to engage unless they could identify the target. Ie someone could be shooting at them from a building and they simply couldn't blow the building up.

They had to first identify the shooter ensure no other target was there then send guys into the building. He told me that 99% of the time they call the black water guys to take care of because it as they didn't operate under those engagement terms.

Did you also talk to General McChrystal? McChrystal Pushes COIN, COIN, COIN | Military.com

“The perception of the villager matters in terms of which side he should support, so winning the battle of perceptions is key.....

....There is another complexity that people do not understand and which the military have to learn: I call it ‘COIN mathematics'. Intelligence will normally tell us how many insurgents are operating in an area. Let us say that there are 10 in a certain area. Following a military operation, two are killed. How many insurgents are left? Traditional mathematics would say that eight would be left, but there may only be two, because six of the living eight may have said, 'This business of insurgency is becoming dangerous so I am going to do something else.'

There are more likely to be as many as 20, because each one you killed has a brother, father, son and friends, who do not necessarily think that they were killed because they were doing something wrong. It does not matter – you killed them. Suddenly, then, there may be 20, making the calculus of military operations very different. Yet we are asking young corporals, sergeants and lieutenants to make those kinds of calculations and requiring them to understand the situation. They have to – there is no simple workaround.”

 

[jonny5]

It was illegal making both Donald Trump and Bill Clinton liars, cowards and draft-dodgers.

The draft was illegal, making Donald Trump and Bill Clinton patriots and SMART.

 

[OscarLevant]

President Trump is Commander in Chief of the all branches of the military. He has every right and duty for his actions. In the title of this thread it is stated it's an illegal order...why is that? Secretary refused to follow orders from his leader, hence he is gone now.

Even though the title got what is going on wrong, what is not wrong is that what the president has done is he has mucked up the chain of command and did something that is unconscionable, which was to restore the rank of a demoted Chief that that chief's peers (other seals) have deemed unworthy of the trident pen.

This is going to contribute to military readiness being compromised, that that Chief, who is a restored navy seal who does not have the confidence of his peers, what is going to happen when he is put back into seal ops with those peers who no longer trust him and believe sincerely by all their training that he is unworthy of the Trident Pen? Since 2011, the Navy has demoted a number of seals unworthy of the team, and I think the number is over 100. It's not like this demotion is a rare thing.

The standards are high, and must remain high and this act by the president is a morale destroyer. If there is one thing seals need is a high sense of morale and this president is doing everything he can to destroy it, Why? Because the president is cool with a seal posing with a dead Muslim? Are you ****ing kidding me? As a veteran of the USN, I feel I have some credibility on this matter, though I never achieved a Seal, I have the greatest respect for them and understand the absolute necessity of morale and trust in those ranks. What the president did was incompetent. But, this president has proved his incompetence throughout his presidency.

Incompetence is not a right, it is an impeachable offense.


Just because a prez has the "right" doesn't mean he should do it.

The secretary refused to follow an order which he deemed was a violation of his sacred oath. Any officer with a strong sense of right and wrong would have done exactly that.

But, since this president violates his own sacred oath of office, it follows.


A point you seem to be unable to grasp.

 

[OscarLevant]

I think you confused me with someone else. I was responding to someone's trolling that avoided discussing the letter. eace

Yes, following the thread back you were responding to abst, not me. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[jnug]

DonDon's reality TV Presidency in full view. He could care less what impact it actually has on military order and discipline. If there is chaos to be had (re. sizzle) then DonDon is all in and our adversaries just gleeful over it.

For you clowns that wanted the so called successful businessman President. DonDon was not a successful businessman and chaos in a business organization always goes straight to the top and that is the guy that burns for it.

Anybody that does not recognize the daily DonDon chaos is just blind.

 

[OscarLevant]

If its true, he killed innocent people? An Islamic ISIS terrorist is now an innocent person? I think not but you are free to defend them all you want.

Spencer did not resign. He was terminated because of the way he handled the Gallagher trial. Gallaghers attorneys found out that tracking software was installed in Gallaghers emails. The intrusion violated his constitutional protections against illegal searches and violated his attorney client privilege. When Spencer couldn't get Gallagher convicted he then wanted to have his Trident removed and Trump said no.

The fact that these prosecutors embedded their emails with devices designed to monitor defense communications is criminal at the very least and shows how they tried to railroad an American Navy SEAL for political reasons.

Government Prosecutor Caught Sending Emails With Tracking Software To Reporters And Defense Attorneys | Techdirt

But here you are making false accusations like illegal orders and Spencer resigning from his job. This again is why no one believes Democrats. You twist stories into something they are not just for a hit piece against Trump. You have no credibility and you continue to get caught doing the very same things over and over.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...es-follow-illegal-order-6.html#post1070943919

Even though the title got what is going on wrong, what is not wrong is that what the president has done is he has mucked up the chain of command and did something that is unconscionable, which was to restore the rank of a demoted Chief that that chief's peers (other seals) have deemed unworthy of the trident pen.

This is going to contribute to military readiness being compromised, that that Chief, who is a restored navy seal who does not have the confidence of his peers, what is going to happen when he is put back into seal ops with those peers who no longer trust him and believe sincerely by all their training that he is unworthy of the Trident Pen? Since 2011, the Navy has demoted a number of seals unworthy of the team, and I think the number is over 100. It's not like this demotion is a rare thing.

The standards are high, and must remain high and this act by the president is a morale destroyer. If there is one thing seals need is a high sense of morale and this president is doing everything he can to destroy it, Why? Because the president is cool with a seal posing with a dead Muslim? Are you ****ing kidding me? As a veteran of the USN, I feel I have some credibility on this matter, though I never achieved a Seal, I have the greatest respect for them and understand the absolute necessity of morale and trust in those ranks. What the president did was incompetent. But, this president has proved his incompetence throughout his presidency.

Incompetence is not a right, it is an impeachable offense.


Just because a prez has the "right" doesn't mean he should do it.

The secretary refused to follow an order which he deemed was a violation of his sacred oath. Any officer with a strong sense of right and wrong would have done exactly that.

But, since this president violates his own sacred oath of office, it follows.


A point you seem to be unable to grasp.

.

The above points stick to the remaining elements which are still true. Although the chief was acquitted of the murders, he was not acquitted of posing with a dead muslim, which is really a serious thing, it falls under "conduct unbecoming". Standards in the Seal ranks are high, much higher than such an egregious drunken sailor act committed by that Chief which was way below the standards of the Seals. His peers deemed him unworthy of the Trident pen, restoring him diminishes military readiness for the above stated reasons.

I understand the logic the president is using, that killing machines should be cut some slack, and that may be true in lower ranks, but not with the Seals, standards of which the Seals themselves embrace.

Your points about Spencer are technical, and a ruse to fire Spencer the long and short of which is that demoting a Seal because who posed with a dead Muslim is something a megalomaniacal malignant narcissist like this president doesn't mind, though the seals themselves do and this maniac for a president can't handle high minded people in his ranks who are unwilling to be his enabler like the many other sycophants who've escaped being fired thus far.

That is the bottom line, right there.

 

[snakestretcher]

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...es-follow-illegal-order-6.html#post1070943919





The above points stick to the remaining elements which are still true. Although the chief was acquitted of the murders, he was not acquitted of posing with a dead muslim, which is really a serious thing, it falls under "conduct unbecoming". Standards in the Seal ranks are high, much higher than such an egregious drunken sailor act committed by that Chief which was way below the standards of the Seals. His peers deemed him unworthy of the Trident pen, restoring him diminishes military readiness for the above stated reasons.

I understand the logic the president is using, that killing machines should be cut some slack, and that may be true in lower ranks, but not with the Seals, standards of which the Seals themselves embrace.

I disagree; there should be one standard throughout the military, whatever the rank or regiment.

 

[Condor060]

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...es-follow-illegal-order-6.html#post1070943919

Just more fact twisting to make a hit piece. You don't get to determine the facts of everything Trump does and neither does the media. Sorry, you opinion isn't that important.

Spencer got his feelings hurt because he got caught trying to spy on the accused attorneys and then tried to back door all this with the White House but Trump said no. Funny how you just conveniently just don't add the facts of what happened in your claims. So telling.

 

[jnug]

Just more fact twisting to make a hit piece. You don't get to determine the facts of everything Trump does and neither does the media. Sorry, you opinion isn't that important.

Spencer got his feelings hurt because he got caught trying to spy on the accused attorneys and then tried to back door all this with the White House but Trump said no. Funny how you just conveniently just don't add the facts of what happened in your claims. So telling.

Spencer, a Trump appointee.

Listen to yourselves. And this one spied on that one and then that one reported it and this one went around Esper's back. BS....all chaos, courtesy of Fat Donald.

 

[Condor060]

He’s good at that too, but Trump is best at lying, causing greater division among Americans, and generally doing everything in his power to destroy relationships with long time allies. Trump is really, really great at those things. :thumbs:

You mean like screaming for impeachment from the day Trump took office
or
Accusing Kavanaugh a High School alcoholic rape train conductor
or
Attacking conservatives in restaurants
or
Terrorizing families of new broadcasters at their homes
or
Blocking traffic on interstates because you don't like an election
or
Burning businesses and rioting in the streets
or
Having Antifa bludgeoning supporters just because they voted for Trump

Are you referring to those kinds of actions creating division or were you just blurting out Orange man bad was the cause?

 

[Condor060]

Spencer, a Trump appointee.

Listen to yourselves. And this one spied on that one and then that one reported it and this one went around Esper's back. BS....all chaos, courtesy of Fat Donald.

Uh huh, Yeah, right. You should actually turn off Maddcow and wake up. Its all in the books. Of course you wouldn't dare actually read the reports. You only like to parrot your liberal media heros.

Best of luck in 2020

 

[Condor060]

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...es-follow-illegal-order-6.html#post1070943919





The above points stick to the remaining elements which are still true. Although the chief was acquitted of the murders, he was not acquitted of posing with a dead muslim, which is really a serious thing, it falls under "conduct unbecoming". Standards in the Seal ranks are high, much higher than such an egregious drunken sailor act committed by that Chief which was way below the standards of the Seals. His peers deemed him unworthy of the Trident pen, restoring him diminishes military readiness for the above stated reasons.

I understand the logic the president is using, that killing machines should be cut some slack, and that may be true in lower ranks, but not with the Seals, standards of which the Seals themselves embrace.

Your points about Spencer are technical, and a ruse to fire Spencer the long and short of which is that demoting a Seal because who posed with a dead Muslim is something a megalomaniacal malignant narcissist like this president doesn't mind, though the seals themselves do and this maniac for a president can't handle high minded people in his ranks who are unwilling to be his enabler like the many other sycophants who've escaped being fired thus far.

That is the bottom line, right there.

So then accuse the man of taking a photo with a dead terrorist and discipline him accordingly. Making false accusations, then spying on his lawyers, then holding him in custody, while faking arguments about him murdering civilians and getting caught in the process, then trying to back door this with the White House undermines the entire process.

Yeah, he should have been reprimanded for having the photo but its far more important to set an example in the courts for the travesty of justice he received so others don't have to face false claims that would put men in prison for life.

 

[Divine_Wind]

The draft was illegal, making Donald Trump and Bill Clinton patriots and SMART.

ROFL

 

[RaleBulgarian]

You mean like screaming for impeachment from the day Trump took office
or
Accusing Kavanaugh a High School alcoholic rape train conductor
or
Attacking conservatives in restaurants
or
Terrorizing families of new broadcasters at their homes
or
Blocking traffic on interstates because you don't like an election
or
Burning businesses and rioting in the streets
or
Having Antifa bludgeoning supporters just because they voted for Trump

Are you referring to those kinds of actions creating division or were you just blurting out Orange man bad was the cause?

What does your rambling rant have to do with Trump’s unfitness?

 

[Ikari]

Score one more for Trump and CO, lol.

Man, the guy destroys almost everything he touches.

 

[Ikari]

ROFL

Draft Dodging ain't the only thing those two will have in common either, once the House draws up the articles of impeachment.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Draft Dodging ain't the only thing those two will have in common either, once the House draws up the articles of impeachment.

Agreed. They're both sexual predators, both are probably guilty of rape and, as you mentioned, both are/were impeached.

 

[Ikari]

Agreed. They're both sexual predators, both are probably guilty of rape and, as you mentioned, both are/were impeached.

I always thought that the GOP was jealous of Clinton, so I guess they have their own now. It is a bit disconcerting how similar they seem to be on some issues though.

 

[OscarLevant]

So then accuse the man of taking a photo with a dead terrorist and discipline him accordingly. Making false accusations, then spying on his lawyers, then holding him in custody, while faking arguments about him murdering civilians and getting caught in the process, then trying to back door this with the White House undermines the entire process.

Yeah, he should have been reprimanded for having the photo but its far more important to set an example in the courts for the travesty of justice he received so others don't have to face false claims that would put men in prison for life.

He was to be demoted from the seals, not lose his rank or his pension. That was the correct action, ( and I don't know if your assertions are entirely correct about Spencer) but Trump interfered and forced Esper's hand, despite his warnings to Trump ( as I understand it). If I got details wrong, (the full story doesn't seem to be very clear at this juncture ) it doesn't change the premise of Trump's incompetence in interfering in the review process ( because the demotion miffed his egocentric sensibilities which I believe are inconsistent with Seal Standards) nor change the points I raised regarding Trump's incompetence and it's affect on morale of the Seals and the review process.

And, to add insult to injury, what is a Navy Chief still active in service doing on Fox news bad mouthing his superiors? That's also inconsistent with military standards ( he should wait until he is retired and a civilian ) -- which is more proof this guy isn't up to stuff insofar as being worthy of the Trident Pen.

Whether or not Spencer should have been fired is really another drama, and beside the point.

Did he kill some civilians as the result of chaos of war, or did he murder them? If he was acquitted, it doesn't mean that the story is necessarily "fake" insofar as the actual act, an acquittal just means the narrative was wrong and the act wasn't murder, it could have been collateral damage in the fog of war. I don't know the details.

You seem to be offering a Fox spin, which I cannot trust. I'll wait to hear more evidence as to what really happened regarding Spencer and Chief Gallagher.