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Seattle Changes Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples’ Day


What romanticist crap. Summarizing your post:

He stumbled into the Americas by accident (he had to lie to his own crew about it) and claimed to discover it even though there were people living on it.
He was sent to jail for being too murderous even for the guys who'd later enslave the entire continent. (As you yourself stated)

You're falling into the same trap as Gathomas. Believing that establishing a system or somehow altering history is enough for a person to be celebrated. That's nonsense. When that person is so devoid of any moral fiber that they were sent to jail by the guys who hired him in the first place, that's enough of a reason for them to not be celebrated. When their supposed achievements can only be validated by the actions which came later and they played no role in, that's another great reason for them to not be celebrated. Again, don't get me wrong. I'm all for celebrating days remembering G. Washington, Jefferson and the gang but celebrating murderous sailors who didn't even set foot in the US? Nonsense. Let Mongolians celebrate them. Again, he wasn't even an explorer. He wasn't looking for new land. He bumped into a continent he didn't even know was there!
 
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Europe's property? LoL. There was no single entity called "Europe" back then.


If they're celebrating a person who enslaved millions of people? They're definitely not smart. :shrug: Spare me the faux outrage.
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It's not faux outrage at all. You're just thinking too highly of yourself and don't think you're doing anything wrong. But you are wrong, just because people worship a certain historical figure that you disapprove of doesn't deprive them of intelligence.


You are again, ignoring the majority of my comment.

I'm done with you. You are too far up your back alley to accept any other narrative or any modification on any narrative. You know what you are? You are a cultist. When presented with reality you ignore large parts of it just to stick to what you think despite clearly being misinformed and poorly educated for such a topic.
 
Rainman05 said:
Europe's property? LoL. There was no single entity called "Europe" back then.
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Now you're just being nitpicky with words.


Spare me. Nationalist leanings aren't a counter argument for why people shouldn't celebrate murderers. If anything, it's a sign of stupidity.

You know what you are? You are a cultist. When presented with reality you ignore large parts of it just to stick to what you think despite clearly being misinformed and poorly educated for such a topic.
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Lmao, I'm a cultist. Says the guy wanting to celebrate the arrival of a murderous, lost European whose establishment of the colonial system the US would later fight against. Are you serious?
 
Hatuey said:
1. Europeans didn't discover the Americas. There were people living in them already.
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Whatever culture once existed in the Americas is extinct now, and is therefore irrelevant. The culture which now exists in the Western hemisphere is overwhelmingly the result of European ideas and influence.

2. Whatever the long term impacts of European arrival on the Americas are, is irrelevant. They're not what is being celebrated.
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How on Earth do you figure, dude? :lol:

Again, without European colonization, NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE TODAY to even be talking about this in the first place.

You owe literally everything in your cushy, democratic, first-world North American life to the fact of European colonization of the Americas and it's impacts.

"2+2= Blue?" :screwy


European colonization of the Americas was not purely negative.

For Europeans, it was a world-changing, positive event. Hell! It was even a positive event for the natives who were smart enough to assimilate.


The culture of the modern Western Hemisphere finds it points of origin in the European colonists who settled here. As such, it's culture is overwhelmingly "European" in general character.


Who the Hell says we don't?

Personally, I think the Roman Empire was a great thing. A lot of people agree. That's why it's constantly glorified in media and in history books.

Being Catholic, I also celebrate Constantine's conversion to Christianity, as well as the Crusades.

As to why they're not "officially" celebrated by the US government, they are simply too far removed from the history of the United States to be terribly relevant. That is not the case where Columbus' discovery of the New World is concerned.

Anyone with even a lick of common sense can see it.

The rest of your post is simply rehashing the same tired old spastic points you've repeated time and again. It will be ignored as such.
 
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Yes, I am serious. You are a cultist.

You accept no deviation from the narrative you've been taught/self-taught/indoctrinated in. I'm not even talking about accepting something else completely different, I'm talking about just accepting a deviation on the narrative you spin. You won't accept the fact that he was brave. You won't accept the fact that the natives were technologically backwards, almost stone-age like, and the realities of those times that the weak suffered what they must, as all people have when they faced a greater opponent... whether today you deem it just or not. Those were the times.

You don't read or reply to my comments in full and cut out large parts of my comment in order to perpetrate your agenda of misinformation.

And you keep using flash-words in your statements, supplementing substance with superficiality.

You my friend, are a cultist in the cult of "I hate Columbus with Passion". You cannot judge history through modern lenses. You need to see things through the eyes of those times to gather knowledge and grow your mind. Otherwise, you're basically just talking ignorance painted in a thin coat of "enlightenment" that everyone, except those weak of mind, can see through.

Your moral outrage signals the fact that you are a very limited man, of limited experience and very limited knowledge. And I pity you.
 

What... are you even blabbering about? The narrative about Christopher Columbus was positive for the better part of 400+ years. It was only when he was scrutinized by academic research and an analysis of his body count that he literally came to life as a murderous, psychopath who accidentally bumped into a continent he mistook for something else until the day he died. Now run along, you're fooling nobody here.
 

It all depends on what lense you want to look at Columbus through. The uncut truth version is not very pleasant, that so much death, destruction and misery had to happen for me to be writing this to you. But if you're looking at Columbus from a strictly moral POV, the argument for Columbus is indefensible, that it was just something from that time. Why? Because old dead philosophers had already laid the foundation and structural framework of what is morally acceptable, and what is not. Massacring peaceful people was immoral during Columbus' day, just as it was when Aristotle wrote Nicomachean Ethics. Humans did not discover empathy and sympathy after Columbus' "discovery," it was already well-established. The alternative is looking at it geopolitically, where morality does not have a place at the table, although anticipating emotionality is part of the calculus of any strategizer.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Whatever culture once existed in the Americas is extinct now, and is therefore irrelevant. The culture which now exists in the Western hemisphere is overwhelmingly the result of European ideas and influence.
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Lmao, what a nonsensical argument. Mayan culture is still existent. So is Huichol culture. So is Iroquois culture. They didn't cease to exist. Have you ever taken a history class?


Good grief, third time I have to explain this to you: Something happening for which a segment of society wouldn't be here today is not enough of a reason to celebrate it. Are you following this yet? Or do I have to make it clearer.

European colonization of the Americas was not purely negative.
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Lmao, neither were any of those examples I posted. Something positive can be linked to all of them if one makes enough of a superficial effort. However, the point is that those positives don't make them worthy of celebration. Are you being purposely obtuse too?

For Europeans, it was a world-changing, positive event. Hell! It was even a positive event for the natives who were smart enough to assimilate.
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Great, let Europeans celebrate it. You however aren't an European and literally have nothing to do with the discovery itself. While you're at it, quit trying to connect yourself to it and the complaining when others do the same.

The culture of the modern Western Hemisphere finds it points of origin in the European colonists who settled here. As such, it's culture is overwhelmingly "European" in general character.
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Lmao, what nonsense. "European culture"? Which part? We haven't been colonies for over 200 years. We established republics while they were still trying to deal with monarchies. We were industrializing when most of Europe still lived in shacks. What part of our culture is European? North America and Europe have been distinct cultures for well over a few hundred years now. Get over it.

Who the Hell says we don't?
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You may, we as a country don't. Don't be purposely obtuse. It'll add to your already weak arguments about "But it happened in history!"


Lmao, you're being silly now. The Reconquista ended the same exact year Columbus reached the Americas. Why isn't that celebrated along with Columbus' non-discovery? Now, whether you want to celebrate it in an attempt to sound like you've made a case, it's fine. However, it's the last stance of a see through position that has been refuted on various grounds.

Reasons to celebrate it, their refutations, and the questions you've been unable to answer:

1. Get over it.
A) Ummm... get over the fact it happened? Irrelevant to the question of whether it should be celebrated.

2. It happened in history and it's important!
So are a multitude of other events that don't get celebrated. Why is this one so special.

3. He discovered the Americas!
Top 5 Misconceptions About Columbus | Christopher Columbus & Intrepid Explorers | Columbus Day | Flat-Earth Myth & Who Discovered the Americas

Yes, let's ignore the fact that millions of humans already inhabited this land later to be called the Americas, having discovered it millennia before. And let's ignore that whole Leif Ericson voyage to Greenland and modern-day Canada around 1000 C.M.E. If Columbus discovered America, he himself didn't know. Until his death he claimed to have landed in Asia, even though most navigators knew he didn't. [Top 10 Intrepid Explorers]
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4. The stuff that happened after he arrived was positive!
Um... yes... positive stuff does happen and it should be examined on its own merits. Columbus' arrival set in motion colonization and enslavement. That Henry Ford would later create the F1 has nothing to do with that.

5. Europeans are here!
And... what? So are Germans. Should we celebrate Hitler's invasion of Poland? Without it, WWII would have never happened and the decision to create a state for Jews wouldn't have either! See how simplistic the line of reason you're using is?
 
I think this thread demonstrates nicely what the right wing means when they talk about political correctness. It seems like giving honor to non-whites or to those who are not part of the white-positive narrative is simply political correctness. Giving honor to non-Christians or to those who are not part of the Christian-positive narrative is simply political correctness. Giving honor to women or to those who are not part of the male-positive narrative is simply political correctness.

This cannot help but demonstrate that, fundamental to these right wing beliefs, is that the white, Christian, male really is better than everyone else. To suggest that this group of people were not constantly at the forefront of history, and shaped this world into the modern one we have in front of us, to suggest that a world in their hands is not going to lead us to the best possible world, is blasphemy of the highest order. Even actors outside of that demographic, like MLK and Joan of Arc, fit the positive narrative for that group. MLK made strides for equality by rejecting violence and, in the views of whites, acting more like a white man. Joan of Arc made great gains for her people by abandoning her femininity and acting like a man, and she was suitably punished for her gender-bending transgression despite her successes. In both cases, the supremacy of the supposed master type is secure.

Political correctness, then, is when you lie and attribute the rightful gains of white, Christian men (also heterosexual) to others less deserving. It's a direct attack on the natural order of things by trying to dethrone those among us who are the best. Other cultures aren't as good as ours. Other ethnic groups aren't as good as we are. Other traditions, places, religions, social structures, economic ideas... they're all inferior, and it offends the conservatives and their idealized white, Christian, heterosexual men when you suggest otherwise. How dare anyone suggest that these lesser forms of human expression are on the same level as this ideal? All that does is damage the ideal way of life.

That is what this thread and others like it have demonstrated to me.
 

Now that is a great idea.
 

Very well said.
 
Wow, Seattle is going full on garden rat crazy aren't they ?
 
Oh great! A "I hate America" thread. That's new here. :roll:
 

No, it was only when it started to be warped by the "social-justice" people who are generally people at the bottom of the intellectual totem poll, but they have a loud mouth and cry a lot because they can't control themselves, that people arranged another rhetoric to suit them and stop them crying. Like you do with a child, you give him the stupid toy to stop him from crying.

Columbus is celebrated for his greatness, not for whatever deficiencies he had or reprehensible deeds he's done.
No human is without fault and therefore, but all humans must have something to aspire to in order to achieve greatness. For most, that's an ideal, but sometimes, it helps if people can be molded into the most humane form of that ideal.
Columbus was a brave explorer and an adventurer. I will not permit you take that away from him by using words like these.
And I will not permit you to take away his findings and his prestige. He did discover america whether you like it or not.

The rest are the faults that people generally have. I am sorry that they offend you. In the prism of those times, what he did may be reprehensible but other people did worse than him and they brought nothing to further our understanding of the world we live in.

So take your cultist propaganda out of here because you are outmatched. Reality and truth are not on your side no matter how much you try and spin it.
 

You should take those tumblrite talking points outta here before you make a fool of yourself.
 
Paschendale said:
Fine then, you tell me why you could possibly have a problem with this change.
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I've already explained why. It's done on false premises to make some butt-hurt people less butt-hurt. It's basically a lot of people crying that they're offended so to stop making them cry that much, Seattle made this concession. Gave it to them. And president Fawn Sharp of the amerindians welcomed this change as being some great thing when in fact, it's just another sign of the fact that people cannot distinguish between ideals and people who personify ideals and people themselves.


You don't celebrate Columbus the man, you celebrate the ideal that he stands for. Adventure, bravery, exploration. Going towards a greater goal. Sure, his goal was to find a route to India and to see how much it'll take to do that, but that's not the point. The point is he tried to do something nobody thought he could do. He may not have been american, but he did the most american thing possible, took a chance for the promise of something greater.

I cannot understand why you would seek to dismember that.



This is why. For why I wrote above.
I kept writing this but I'll write it again and again.

The problem with you is that you subscribe to the deadbeat ideology of getting offended.
 
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No, but we're not exactly keen on the Left's masturbatory self-loathing obsession with tearing whites, Christians, and men down in order to build the other groups you mention up.

Again, if you want to honor native peoples, honor native peoples. There are plenty of days on the calendar which could easily accommodate such a holiday.

There's no reason to deliberately go out of one's way to sh*t all over European colonists, or the things that they and their descendants have accomplished, in the process of doing so. We have just as much right to be here, and honor our heritage and history, as anyone else.
 
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Rainman05 said:
No, it was only when it started to be warped by the "social-justice" people who are generally people at the bottom of the intellectual totem poll,
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Columbus is celebrated for his greatness, not for whatever deficiencies he had or reprehensible deeds he's done.
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What... greatness? You keep repeating this nonsense as if it makes it true. He thought he'd reached Asia. He literally had no clue there was another continent here. The Earth had been proven as round well over 1500 years before. He couldn't have discovered a continent where millions of people already had civilizations on. So what is there left? He established the idea of colonialism, which if you remember the US eventually fought to get rid of.

So take your cultist propaganda out of here because you are outmatched. Reality and truth are not on your side no matter how much you try and spin it.
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4 pages of you whining and moaning about how great Columbus was when his only accomplishment is establishing colonialism.
 

As I said, you are a cultist. And you don't reply to the comment in full.
This makes any discussion with you impossible because you are dishonest.
 
Hatuey said:
Lmao, what a nonsensical argument. Mayan culture is still existent. So is Huichol culture. So is Iroquois culture. They didn't cease to exist. Have you ever taken a history class?
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Yah-huh. :lol:

Where? In a few tribes out in the middle of no where?

No one cares, dude. Those groups are outliers, who have had little to no influence in shaping the majority culture which now exists in the Americas.

Again, it simply happens to be the case that that culture is overwhelming based around the history and traditions of the European colonists who took over the region, not the native peoples they conquered. Deal with it.

Good grief, third time I have to explain this to you: Something happening for which a segment of society wouldn't be here today is not enough of a reason to celebrate it. Are you following this yet? Or do I have to make it clearer.
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I'm sorry, but I simply disagree. There is plenty of reason to celebrate.

Hell! By your logic, why "celebrate" anything at all? There is no event in all of history which has purely served altruistic interests without having negative repercussions for someone else.

That is simply the nature of the world, and it's not going to change any time soon.

Lmao, neither were any of those examples I posted. Something positive can be linked to all of them if one makes enough of a superficial effort.
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To Hilter, Stalin, and the Holocaust?

You're joking, right? :screwy

Great, let Europeans celebrate it. You however aren't an European and literally have nothing to do with the discovery itself. While you're at it, quit trying to connect yourself to it and the complaining when others do the same.
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To the contrary, I am of European descent, and so is my culture.

Do you imagine that we both simply materialized out of thin air?

I can and will honor that heritage. If you don't like it, tough sh*t.


Are you seriously asking why we celebrate events that happened in the Americas and directly resulted in the creation of our country, and not events that happened half a world away, and did not?

Remind me again, who is being "obtuse" here? :roll:


You keep reposting this frantic screed of your's like it actually means something.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. :lol:
 
My ancestors did that, not me. I am not evil, don't know where you got that idea. Acknowledging the darkness in our history is not calling you evil. It's how we make sure we avoid such evil in the future. Why do you wish to downplay our nation's past crimes? Why do you want to hide that history?

maybe you are just projecting your own white guilt on to me.
 

Self loathing? I don't loath myself because of something my ancestors did. More projection.
 
Deuce said:
My ancestors did that, not me. I am not evil, don't know where you got that ideal maybe you are just projecting your own white guilt on to me.
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Then give the land that your "evil" ancestors took back, if you are so ashamed of it. :roll:

I'm sorry, but it's just that simple.

Damning the deeds of your forebearers, while living a cushy comfortable life that is only possible in the first place because of the things that they accomplished, is the very height of self-serving hypocrisy. It allows you to feel self-righteous, smug, and self-satisfied while still enjoying all the spoils of the conquests which brought our society to where it is currently in the first place, and not doing anything whatsoever to actually rectify the "wrongs" to which you claim to be opposed.

Deuce said:
Self loathing? I don't loath myself because of something my ancestors did. More projection.
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If one loathes their ancestors and their heritage, by extension, they loathe themselves.

Do you imagine that you simply sprung from some hole in ground without precedent?

You are a product of, and heir to, the European socio-cultural heritage you claim to despise regardless of whether you like that fact or not.
 
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I don't loathe you, or white people, or America, or myself. You are the only one who has used the word. Acknowledging the past isn't damning the present. When you read about World War II, are you filled with hate for present-day Germans? Is it an attack on Germany? Do Germans who loathe Hitler also loathe themselves? I can condemn the actions of Genghis Khan, is that me also hating everyone descended from him? (Which, it turns out, is a huge percentage of the population because that guy got around)

If we are following up your logic, any nation with any history of evil must make reparations for that evil. Why do you believe that? You're basically saying "nah uh, America never did anything evil because if they did, I'd have to feel guilty." News flash, buddy. Ameica's history is pretty ****ed up. If that makes you feel the need to give up your land, feel free to do so. But don't sit here and pretend it didn't happen.

Either that, or explain to me why you aren't damning genocide. Why don't you oppose genocide?
 
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