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SCOTUS case on racial bias in jury pools.. liberals dissent

GummyVitamins

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Back story: A man was convicted of committing a murder for hire. A woman hired the defendant to kill the new girlfriend of her ex-boyfriend. He shot her as she was getting into her car. Police found the suspects after picking up the getaway driver. The jury selection process had two questions that are of issue with this appeal.

68. Do you sometimes personally harbor bias against members of certain races or ethnic groups?
69. Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups tend to be more violent than others?” Jury Questionnaire, p. 12 (Juror 1136B).

A juror answered “No” to question number 68 and in response to question number 69 he stated that “Statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics.” Later in the vior dire he expanded that his response was based purely on statistics and not on his personal beliefs. He further explained that he would not expect an individual to be more violent based on their race. He said his view came from criminology courses and news reports. The defense had used up all of their strikes on other potential jurors and the judge allowed his defense to strike an additional two jurors on top of that. But, they were unable to have this juror removed from the pool because they were all used up. After the unanimous conviction he appealed based on a racially biased jury member. His first appeal was denied on the basis that he was already granted more strikes than he was allowed. So it went to the Supreme Court where his appeal was denied.

Sotomayor wrote the dissenting opinion. Her opinion is a little messy. For example, she says things like when a juror makes a “clear statement [of racial bias] that influences a decision” the courts need to make an exception. This never happened and she doesn’t claim that it did either. She just felt the need to make the statement in her dissent I presume to fill up space and to muddy the water. She goes on to make statements including things like “in certain circumstances” and “in some instances” without correlating it to the juror’s statements. She also writes that the appeals court ”assumed” he was biased and effectively didn’t care. She claims the decision was “plainly erroneous.” This is also a misrepresentation. The appeals court said the judge followed protocol and made the correct decision because the juror wasn’t biased. The appeals court added that “even if” the juror had some bias (which they did not allege) the appeal would still fail because they used more strikes than they were allowed under state law. So effectively, the courts liberals believe that a juror who cites criminal statistics is grounds for a new trial and tossing a conviction.

More at The NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/us/politics/supreme-court-racial-bias-juror.html
 

Gateman_Wen

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He was biased. He said he was biased. He even mentioned bias against certain races. Obviously shouldn't have been on the jury.
 

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He was biased. He said he was biased. He even mentioned bias against certain races. Obviously shouldn't have been on the jury.

Was he? The facts demonstrate otherwise.

1. “68. Do you sometimes personally harbor bias against members of certain races or ethnic groups?
“69. Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups tend to be more violent than others?” Jury Questionnaire, p. 12 (Juror 1136B).”

2. To the first question, No. 68, the prospective juror at is- sue answered, “No.” Ibid. But to the second question, No. 69, he answered, “Yes.” Ibid. He explained that “statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics.”

3. During the voir dire proceeding…He explained that he understood “[n]on-white” races to be the “more violent races.” 29 Rec- ord 145. He claimed that he had seen statistics to this effect in “[n]ews reports and criminology classes” he had taken. Id., at 144. He stated that his answer to question No. 69 was based on these statistics, rather than his “personal feel- ings towards one race or another.”

4. “and he indi- cated that he did not “think because of somebody’s race they’re more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race,” id., at 145. He told defense counsel that he would not feel differently about Love “because he’s an Afri- can American.”

Okay. Number three is referring to the statistical generality. He’s reached this conclusion based on the statistical data and not as a result of any animus, dislike for non-whites. More poignantly, he didn’t say “blacks” but “non-whites.”

Number 4 is acknowledging he cannot rely upon the statistics which make a generalized statement about the probability and likelihood of the group and does not reflect any likelihood or probability of a specific person who is a member of the group. “he did not “think because of somebody’s race they’re more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race.”
 

Gateman_Wen

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Yes.” Ibid. He explained that “statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics.”
My point is made by your post. Thank you.
 

GummyVitamins

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He said he was biased.
He said he wasn't biased.

He even mentioned bias against certain races.
He stated that crime statistics show certain races commit more violent crime when asked about differences in violence between races. This is factually accurate. He went on to say that he did not believe that individuals are more violent because of their race. His responses to these questions are sworn statements. He cannot lie to be politically correct. Are you suggesting people who know and cite crime statistics cannot sit on a jury?
 
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NotreDame

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My point is made by your post. Thank you.

Why is it that facts be damned for your personal narrative of reality?

His statement of, “statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics” establishes your narrative of bias how exactly?

He didn’t identify ANY specific race of the plural “races.”

He did not say “blacks.”

He didn’t say any specific person of a specific race is more likely.

He did not say the defendant was more likely because of defendant’s race.

He cited to data.

And he acknowledged such data cannot be relied upon to determine whether the defendant is or isn’t more likely. He realized such data will not permit him to draw a conclusion of a likelihood on behalf of the black defendant. “[H]e did not “think because of somebody’s race they’re more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race,” id., at 145. He told defense counsel that he would not feel differently about Love “because he’s an African American.”

Those facts lend support to your narrative of bias? How?
 

Gateman_Wen

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He said he wasn't biased.


He stated that crime statistics show certain races commit more violent crime when asked about differences in violence between races. This is factually accurate. He went on to say that he did not believe that individuals are more violent because of their race. His responses to these questions are sworn statements. He cannot lie to be politically correct. Are you suggesting people who know and cite crime statistics cannot sit on a jury?
No, he said he was, and based it on "statistics". That's still bias.
 

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Why is it that facts be damned for your personal narrative of reality?

His statement of, “statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics” establishes your narrative of bias how exactly?

He didn’t identify ANY specific race of the plural “races.”

He did not say “blacks.”

He didn’t say any specific person of a specific race is more likely.

He did not say the defendant was more likely because of defendant’s race.

He cited to data.

And he acknowledged such data cannot be relied upon to determine whether the defendant is or isn’t more likely. He realized such data will not permit him to draw a conclusion of a likelihood on behalf of the black defendant. “[H]e did not “think because of somebody’s race they’re more likely to commit a crime than somebody of a different race,” id., at 145. He told defense counsel that he would not feel differently about Love “because he’s an African American.”

Those facts lend support to your narrative of bias? How?
How can you not see that as an admission of bias? He told the judge up front he believed the race of the defendant committed more crimes. That's a bias.
 

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How can you not see that as an admission of bias? He told the judge up front he believed the race of the defendant committed more crimes. That's a bias.

Because there aren’t any facts supporting the bias you allege, and I’m not seeking to adhere to my personal narrative of this reality.

So, the defendant is black. Provide the evidence, specifically, his statement of “blacks” commit “more crimes.” It doesn’t exist.

Neither is there any evidence the prospective juror said blacks are more violent or blacks commit more violent crimes.

So, your statment of, “He told the judge up front he believed the race of the defendant committed more crimes,” doesn’t exist factually at the moment. This statement presently exists only in your mind. There’s no evidence presently the prospective juror ever said “he believed the race of the defendant committed more crimes.”

Again, this is your narrative of reality and you are ignoring facts to adhere to your narrative or conjuring presently nonexistent facts to support your narrative of reality.

The “bias” you alleged does not exist based on what we presently know of the evidence and facts.
 
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He was biased. He said he was biased. He even mentioned bias against certain races. Obviously shouldn't have been on the jury.
Yup, should be obvious to everybody except of course racist shitty people right wingers
No he didn't. Provide a direct quote rather than making false allegations.

Its in your own opening post, for the love of god you people are so pathetic
 

GummyVitamins

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Its in your own opening post, for the love of god you people are so pathetic
Then cite the direct quote where he admitted he had racial bias. It's not a hard question.

And if he admitted it why didn't the appeals court or the Supreme Court cite it? Because it never happened.
 

AGENT J

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Back story: A man was convicted of committing a murder for hire. A woman hired the defendant to kill the new girlfriend of her ex-boyfriend. He shot her as she was getting into her car. Police found the suspects after picking up the getaway driver. The jury selection process had two questions that are of issue with this appeal.

68. Do you sometimes personally harbor bias against members of certain races or ethnic groups?
69. Do you believe that some races and/or ethnic groups tend to be more violent than others?” Jury Questionnaire, p. 12 (Juror 1136B).

A juror answered “No” to question number 68 and in response to question number 69 he stated that “Statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics.” Later in the vior dire he expanded that his response was based purely on statistics and not on his personal beliefs. He further explained that he would not expect an individual to be more violent based on their race. He said his view came from criminology courses and news reports. The defense had used up all of their strikes on other potential jurors and the judge allowed his defense to strike an additional two jurors on top of that. But, they were unable to have this juror removed from the pool because they were all used up. After the unanimous conviction he appealed based on a racially biased jury member. His first appeal was denied on the basis that he was already granted more strikes than he was allowed. So it went to the Supreme Court where his appeal was denied.

Sotomayor wrote the dissenting opinion. Her opinion is a little messy. For example, she says things like when a juror makes a “clear statement [of racial bias] that influences a decision” the courts need to make an exception. This never happened and she doesn’t claim that it did either. She just felt the need to make the statement in her dissent I presume to fill up space and to muddy the water. She goes on to make statements including things like “in certain circumstances” and “in some instances” without correlating it to the juror’s statements. She also writes that the appeals court ”assumed” he was biased and effectively didn’t care. She claims the decision was “plainly erroneous.” This is also a misrepresentation. The appeals court said the judge followed protocol and made the correct decision because the juror wasn’t biased. The appeals court added that “even if” the juror had some bias (which they did not allege) the appeal would still fail because they used more strikes than they were allowed under state law. So effectively, the courts liberals believe that a juror who cites criminal statistics is grounds for a new trial and tossing a conviction.

More at The NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/18/us/politics/supreme-court-racial-bias-juror.html

Well one thing is for sure thats a guy i would NEVER want on a jury, good grief

the rest really don't matter because its false narratives and smoke
 
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No he didn't. Provide a direct quote rather than making false allegations.

Then cite the direct quote where he admitted he had racial bias. It's not a hard question.

And if he admitted it why didn't the appeals court or the Supreme Court cite it? Because it never happened.
it's in your damn OP, stop being a lazy disingenuous lazy troll

A juror answered “No” to question number 68 and in response to question number 69 he stated that “Statistics show more violent crimes are committed by certain races. I believe in statistics

that's bias, no matter what moronic shit you try to claim, that's admitted bias
 

GummyVitamins

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it's in your damn OP, stop being a lazy disingenuous lazy troll



that's bias, no matter what moronic shit you try to claim, that's admitted bias
Nobody has cited where the juror admitted he had racial bias. If it's so obvious why can't you provide a direct quote? Citing statistics isn't bias. No judge, not even Sotomayor or Kagan, agreed. It never happened. If it did the the appeals court and Supreme Court decisions would have cited it and discussed it as part of their rulings and dissents. And Sotomayor's dissent had some absurd defenses in it. If he admitted bias she would have used it.
 

AGENT J

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it's in your damn OP, stop being a lazy disingenuous lazy troll



that's bias, no matter what moronic shit you try to claim, that's admitted bias
not only is it biased its stupidity, he says "I believe in statistics." but he isn't even smart enough to understand them
 
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not only is it biased its stupidity, he says "I believe in statistics." but he isn't even smart enough to understand them
He sounds like the typical right winger, spout bullshit then pretend its fact.
 

AGENT J

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It is fact... according to the FBI UCS.
no, it is not LMAO
another person who FACTUALLY doesn't understand stats or what the word fact means.
its awesome when these people expose how monumentally stupid their claims are 😂
 

AGENT J

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Cite the factually inaccurate statement he made. Good luck. 🍿
oh this is gonna be so much fun
thats easy no stat was presented that shows more violent crimes are FACTUALLY committed by certain races

if you disagree show that state, oh wait you cant because it doesn't exist
BOOOM another failed and retired false claim bites the dust!!!! LMAO

thank you for proving me right that you are monumentally uneducated about this specific topic and have no clue what stats and facts mean on this issue either, wow that was easy, I knew this would be fun

😂🍿
 

GummyVitamins

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oh this is gonna be so much fun
thats easy no stat was presented that shows more violent crimes are FACTUALLY committed by certain races

if you disagree show that state, oh wait you cant because it doesn't exist
BOOOM another failed and retired false claim bites the dust!!!! LMAO

thank you for proving me right that you are monumentally uneducated about this specific topic and have no clue what stats and facts mean on this issue either, wow that was easy, I knew this would be fun

😂🍿
You should do some research on this subject. This is very basic knowledge when it comes to criminal justice statistics.
 

AGENT J

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You should do some research on this subject. This is very basic knowledge when it comes to criminal justice statistics.

funny-machinist-with-red-train-cartoon-vector-26957245.jpg
Thats what I thought!!! LMAO

you got NOTHING ZIP ZERO ZILTCH and your moronic claim gets destroyed again
like I said, if you disagree simply show the state that makes it facts more violent crimes are FACTUALLY committed by certain races
you wont cause you cant!
😂🍿
 

GummyVitamins

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View attachment 67386664
Thats what I thought!!! LMAO

you got NOTHING ZIP ZERO ZILTCH and your moronic claim gets destroyed again
like I said, if you disagree simply show the state that makes it facts more violent crimes are FACTUALLY committed by certain races
you wont cause you cant!
😂🍿
You disagree that there is a disparity in violent crime committed between the races? That's not an intelligent position.
 
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