Russian Trolls Were/Are Sowing Discord via Social Media.

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Trump has betrayed his country for money.

Forget WaPo, the man has said as much in all of his books!
Some of us have actually READ them, you know.

Trump will betray ANYONE who is not on board with HIS agenda.
Not only will he, he's even on record as saying that he takes particular PLEASURE in going after and screwing over ANYONE who is NOT ON BOARD with HIS agenda, and he even says that it doesn't even matter to him if HIS AGENDA hurts others, no matter how innocent or vulnerable, because, as HE SAYS, that's just the cost of doing business, and business is PARAMOUNT to everything else, again HIS words.

When someone tells you who they are, believe them, okay?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

It's become clear they have become far better than us.

We didn't pick their president but they picked ours.

Sputnik, Gagarin.
They beat us silly until we finally woke up and realized what that meant.

 

[Moderate Right]

YOU were the one who mentioned North Korea.



What do I want TRUMP to do? Trump????
Where did you get the idea that I think Trump is qualified to do ANYTHING with Russia except suck the appendage of Vladimir Putin, the guy who will give him Russian citizenship when he flees justice here?

All I know is, we have managed to CONTAIN North Korea since the 1950's, we managed to CONTAIN the Soviets for their entire existence. Say what you want, mister "expert" but that WORKED.

Right now, we are, in the estimation of our top military advisers, two seconds away from a WAR with North Korea, one we are NOT PREPARED FOR (again, not MY words, THEIRS).

So, you can't answer the question. You just want to be a partisan hack. What do you think Trump should do with Russia?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

So, you can't answer the question. You just want to be a partisan hack. What do you think Trump should do with Russia?

You don't like my answer.
I said and still say that I do not think Trump is qualified to deal with Russia.
Here's an another answer: Listen to a wide variety of advisers from all sides of the spectrum.

And accusing me of being a partisan hack is rich, coming from you.

 

[Moderate Right]

You don't like my answer.
I said and still say that I do not think Trump is qualified to deal with Russia.
Here's an another answer: Listen to a wide variety of advisers from all sides of the spectrum.

And accusing me of being a partisan hack is rich, coming from you.

Since you are having a hard time understanding my question let's try this: YOU are the president. What would YOU do to Russia?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No difficulty at all in understand your previous question.
If I was the President, what would I do?

First, I would recognize Putin's past history, particularly with regard to his service to the KGB and that would make mindful, nay...FORCE me to be mindful of the fact that Mr. Putin prizes intel advantages over almost anything.

Second, I would also be mindful of the fact that Mr. Putin never got over the USA winning the Cold War and helping in the collapse of the old Soviet Union.
Putin might be the furthest thing from a Communist imaginable but it's no secret that he is driven mostly by his anger over that old score, one he intends to settle. That's not me talking, that's the facts according to almost ANYONE in foreign service who knows the man

Third, with the first two things in mind, I would be aware of the fact that we are, like it or not, engaged in something of a "new" aspect of the old Cold War, or perhaps you could call it something of an intelligence arms race. But that's already just one aspect of the old Cold War, only now intel on U.S. cultural, social, economic and electoral trends are all now arrows in the Russian quiver.

In the old days of the USSR, knowledge about these things was maybe a good deal more clumsy. This much I DO KNOW on a personal level because I worked for US based Russian language television for six years and I've been to the old USSR once, and then again after it was no longer the USSR.

Now, their knowledge is honed to a razor's edge.
And as several other members have pointed out, they are indeed using ideas first put into practice HERE in the USA by people like Edward Bernays et al.
They've managed to weaponize that knowledge and use it as something of a psyop.

Want more?

 

[Fishking]

One of the first things I was taught as a young Grunt was NEVER focus on one enemy.... keep your head on a swivel. Problem with most armchair theorists is they can only concentrate on one 'enemy' at a time.

One can make an argument we went too far after 'winning' the Cold War by pushing military agreements to the very front door of Russia. But giving Russia a pass on invading and supporting rebels in the Ukraine, pushing troops in the Crimea and then mucking about in our elections is true ignorance.

I can't help but think if Obama hadn't sanctioned Russia the same whiners about the sanctions would be shrieking about 'soft on Russia'... :doh

It's a bit tricky, China makes everything from toys to the electronic components our military depends on. Russia doesn't provide much we depend on. China isn't trying to interfere with our democracy, Trump has all but tucked tail on all his get tough on China talk.

Let's not pretend allowing Russia to do as Putin pleases will be a good thing for us... eace

You're right that we do nothing to China vs Russia because we are so reliant on them, and that is a major security issue. As for Russia, their interests are not our own but I think we can have a more reasonable relationship with them. There is no need to push up right against Russia's boarder and then act all outraged when Russia starts taking measures, after years, of pushing back on that. No other country would stand for such a thing. Right now the biggest future threat is China and that threat is made significantly worse if you look at the Russia/China block. The logistics of dealing with both of those countries working together would be a nightmare. I don't believe Russia particularly likes China and we should be working to drive a wedge between them.

 

[Fishking]

The sanctions against Russia were passed by the Senate 98-2...which means that all but two Republicans in the Senate think you're full of crap.

Bunch of old people being stuck int he Cold War or ensuring we keep our MIC profits moving forward? This is not a shock.

Maybe it will help you to bear in mind that there is one and ONLY one nation on the planet that can physically destroy America...and it ain't China. China has not conducted a psyops campaign throughout western Europe to fragment NATO.

NATO is a provocative alliance that is defunct, as far as I'm concerned. If we cannot even be bothered to modify it to kick Turkey out for being a failed state that is now invading other countries and killing our Kurdish allies in Syria, then it doesn't deserve to have any special standing. Further, NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance but they went into Libya and destroyed the country entirely. Our actions have to be a little bit more solid for us to have the moral standing to be able to say, "No, you are wrong for doing the same types of things we are doing."

Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly no fan of China...but the only threat we face from China is economic in nature, and thanks mostly to Trump abdicating our worldwide leadership (yes, he did). The threat we face from Russia is a physical threat, not only to our allies in NATO, but also to our own nation.

The Russian threat is static. They aren't going to be increasing their military capabilities and their resources are more limited due to being more easily isolated. With China, they are developing. They are building fake islands, arming them, and claiming the sea zones around them. They hacked millions of very personal data of about everyone who applied for a security clearance just a few years back. But what do we do to them? Nothing but appeasement because they have us by the balls economically. We lick their boots and have things like the "One China" policy, which is complete horse****. Why should we treat Taiwan as part of China? You know? The Communist regime that they fled from who were killed by the literal millions? That's garbage. In no way should we act like Taiwan should be part of China unless we are doing it in the context that the current oppressive communist regime completely abdicates their power.

Look, guy, I do remember the Cold War very well...and so does ex-KGB colonel Putin. Think on this - you're a high-ranking military officers, and your nation has just disintegrated, having lost a forty-year pseudo-war against the country you've been told to hate all your life. As the years pass, several Soviet republicans that used to be part of the USSR break away and even become members of NATO against Mother Russia. Do you REALLY think that he doesn't bear a deep grudge against America? If you don't think so, then you are a very, very naive person.

Sure Putin doesn't like it. We wouldn't like it if Russia fomented a revolution in Mexico and then entered them into the Warsaw pact. In fact, we wouldn't stand for it and would militarily intervene if it happened. We can't expect to march and anti-Russia NATO alliance right up to their boarders and also militarily attack all their allies or heavily sanction them and expect there to be any improvement in relations. It's just not reasonable.

 

[Fishking]

I dunno, we report, you decide:

Do you remember the Donald Cook incident, in which two Russian Su-24's disabled the Aegis system on the US frigate, using new Russian electronic warfare equipment?

How about the Incirlik incident?

Why should we limit the parameters of the discussion to television broadcast outlets and websites, by the way?
The debate is actually about all social media, yes?

We were talking about propaganda campaigns that are reportedly sowing discord in the US. I merely pointed out blaming anything on those efforts is laughable in the fact that we are doing it to ourselves. Does Russia own the Grammys and have them read segments of "Fire and Fury"? Does Russia own the Oscars? Does Russia own all our media outlets? Does Russia own Debate Politics Online?

Bunch of people don't want to admit and take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[notquiteright]

You're right that we do nothing to China vs Russia because we are so reliant on them, and that is a major security issue. As for Russia, their interests are not our own but I think we can have a more reasonable relationship with them. There is no need to push up right against Russia's boarder and then act all outraged when Russia starts taking measures, after years, of pushing back on that. No other country would stand for such a thing. Right now the biggest future threat is China and that threat is made significantly worse if you look at the Russia/China block. The logistics of dealing with both of those countries working together would be a nightmare. I don't believe Russia particularly likes China and we should be working to drive a wedge between them.

First we have ZERO need to drive a wedge between China and Russia- Siberia is doing that. China sees Siberia as a great resource filled with Asiatic type people. Russia sees the threat of a huge number of non Russians in that region.

I agree the neo-cons were drunk with pyrrhic victory after the collapse of the USSR and acted the fool by extending NATO to Russia's very doorstep- but force of arms and invasion wasn't the answer. Hacking into our political system was truly across the line and not what anyone who wants a counterpoint to China's rising star (China and Russia share a border and you'd think Russia would work peacefully to gain our support.)

But Russia has so little to offer us compared to China. Combine that with a former KGB tough running his country like a criminal gang and I see no reason to look the other way when it comes to Russia... eace

 

[Thoreau72]

Half a million Trump retweets by Russian bots got his message out. You should be worried. But you're not. Why would that be?

Well my fearful friend, the answer is obvious for the paranoid: I'm a Russian, of course! :lamo

 

[Mircea]

No, their meddling in US and western elections has been going on for 100 years. Only this last year did anyone care, and only because the election didn't go their way.

And the US has been interfering in foreign elections equally as long.

Why are you giving the Russians a pass when it's been proven that they have and are still engaged in trolling and attempting to disrupt democratically elected governments?

Rhetoric is not a violation of any State or federal laws.

Half a million Trump retweets by Russian bots got his message out. You should be worried. But you're not. Why would that be?

And NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, plus other networks, along with more than 100 daily newspapers got Hillary's message out.

Why aren't you worried about that?

 

[Harshaw]

And the US has been interfering in foreign elections equally as long.

:shrug: OK. Now what?

 

[Fishking]

First we have ZERO need to drive a wedge between China and Russia- Siberia is doing that. China sees Siberia as a great resource filled with Asiatic type people. Russia sees the threat of a huge number of non Russians in that region.

That all goes out the window if we do everything we can to push Russia into China's arms. We didn't particularly like Russia in WWII but we made sure to include them as allies and supply them. Necessity is a cruel and uncompromising taskmaster.

I agree the neo-cons were drunk with pyrrhic victory after the collapse of the USSR and acted the fool by extending NATO to Russia's very doorstep- but force of arms and invasion wasn't the answer. Hacking into our political system was truly across the line and not what anyone who wants a counterpoint to China's rising star (China and Russia share a border and you'd think Russia would work peacefully to gain our support.)

1. What military actions are you referring to? So far it's been fairly restrained. Crimea? Yeah, they aren't going to give up their giant naval base there. No country would allow something like that to happen.

2. They didn't hack into our political system. At worst, they hacked into the computers of a private political club.

But Russia has so little to offer us compared to China. Combine that with a former KGB tough running his country like a criminal gang and I see no reason to look the other way when it comes to Russia... eace

The fact that China offers us so much, and that we are so reliant on them, is specifically what makes them so much more dangerous. This was demonstrated by the fact that we did nothing to them despite them hacking the very personal data of millions of people with security clearances. That quite a bit worse than hacking the servers of a private political club. Further, we have long years have having contentious relations with Russia so we know where out comfort ground is there. China's up and coming position in the power structure is an unknown.

P.S. I enjoy having a conversation on the subject in a rational and respectful manner. Even if I don't agree with you, I find more value out of it.

 

[notquiteright]

That all goes out the window if we do everything we can to push Russia into China's arms. We didn't particularly like Russia in WWII but we made sure to include them as allies and supply them. Necessity is a cruel and uncompromising taskmaster. 1. What military actions are you referring to? So far it's been fairly restrained. Crimea? Yeah, they aren't going to give up their giant naval base there. No country would allow something like that to happen. 2. They didn't hack into our political system. At worst, they hacked into the computers of a private political club. The fact that China offers us so much, and that we are so reliant on them, is specifically what makes them so much more dangerous. This was demonstrated by the fact that we did nothing to them despite them hacking the very personal data of millions of people with security clearances. That quite a bit worse than hacking the servers of a private political club. Further, we have long years have having contentious relations with Russia so we know where out comfort ground is there. China's up and coming position in the power structure is an unknown. P.S. I enjoy having a conversation on the subject in a rational and respectful manner. Even if I don't agree with you, I find more value out of it.

Push Russia into China's arms??? I'd say Putin sees Russia as superior to China and would want to the senior partner, hubris isn't confined only to our Neo-Cons. This isn't 1939 and China ain't Nazi Germany. We depend on China to keep our consumer economy going, we would be far better served to partner with China, admit that just like Russia, China wants to control it's region, China wants to have a buffer zone in the South Pacific just like we do with the Monroe Doctrine.

Russia sent troops into the Ukraine, gave the 'rebels' air defense that shot down a civilian aircraft, and instead of renting it's Naval Base in the Crimea with a right of passage overland they chose to seize it. (I agree the Crimea isn't 'Ukrainian' but it's up to the citizens of Crimea what the deal will be for the continued use of the Naval Base. (though we are doing the same thing for Git-mo 3 grand rent a year)

I understand Pro-Russia Americans wish to downplay the word hack... but for the rest of us Hack includes the false flag blogs, facebook garbage, millions of fake
news posts...

I'd opine we know Russia offers us nothing in return for our friendship, a counterpoint to China??? Hardly, Russia can't do much for us with China. We'd be better served to work with China as they emerge from a 1000 year dormancy and follow Britain's example with us as we emerged from an backwater coastal strip to the world's manufacturing leader. Not all hugs and kisses but a partnership that saw us through Nazi Germany's existential threat... eace

 

[PhysicalRemoval]

Should it shock us that Russians are now using 21st century tools? What do you think Voice of America is attempting? Not saying we should not try and stamp out what they are trying. Much harder in our open society than in Russia or China.

I hope no one on this site is so uninformed as to think that espionage was invented in 2016.

You leftist were ok with Russian when they were commies, why not now? I wonder why?