"Running Amok": an explanation for random mass murder

Goshin · May 25, 2022

"Running amok" was originally associated with Indonesia, Maylasia, and the Philippines. It referred to an individual, suddenly or after a period of brooding, taking a weapon, running into a crowd, and slaughtering people indiscriminately in an apparent frenzy. The word (also juramentado) became known to the West in the 18th century.
The phenomenon has been conjectured to be related to similar states in other cultures, including Norse berserkers, and has been included in the psychiatric list of disorders as a non-cultural disorder.
Mass murder is not a new thing. In 1927 the worst school massacre ever was perpetrated with dynamite, killing 38 schoolchildren and 6 adults.
Nor is it only in the USA: the Norway massacre took 77 lives, and studies from 2009-2015 showed Europe has a comparable number of fatalities from random mass murder to the US. Around 2010 China experienced a series of school mass stabbings that left 90 dead and over 400 injured, some with lifelong impairments.
Looking back through history it is possible to find many individuals who would fit the modern definition of a mass murderer.
In the 1968 novel Stand on Zanzibar, author John Brunner made a number of notably correct predictions, such as correctly forecasting wearable technology, Viagra, video calls, same-sex marriage, the legalization of cannabis, and the proliferation of mass murders with rising population density. In the book, there were mass shootings, mass stabbing/slashing, and sabotage of elevators or trains killing dozens or hundreds, by "muckers" (amok-ers).
"In Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are clearly depicted as a response to overpopulation, a response which the mucker themselves can’t control: in the midst of an attack, a mucker according to Brunner is “in a berserk frame of reference and will not feel any pain.” In the 2010 of Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are reported as routinely as the weather."

The population density is rising generally, and the Internet may cause a *perception* of high population density: social media makes social interactions frequent, rapid and seemingly unavoidable, much like inner-city living, even for those in small towns.
I believe what we're seeing is an entirely explainable increase of incidents, revealing a fundamental flaw of human nature. Some people reach a point, due to mental illness, stress, conflict or struggle (or all the above) where they "can't take it anymore" and go berserk.
I think this is the chief explanation for these incidents, and the main reason they are increasing.

It is a psychological (and possibly sociological) problem; we probably need to find a psychological (/sociological) solution, one that addresses the deep causal agents, rather than focusing on the superficial elements of individual incidents, if we really want to make a serious dent in this problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/c...nks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

Port & Starboard · May 25, 2022

There are a lot of reasons for running amuck.

Violence glorified in video games, online forums, in music, in movies.......etc. etc. etc.

Poor parental supervision, and latch key kids who sit home alone behind their computer screens for years on end.

Politicians using more and more volatile rhetoric stirring up the borderline mentally ill among their base.

It's only going to get worse here in the US as each new generation gets more and more violent and the copy cat killers want to go out in a blaze of glory.

HangLow · May 25, 2022

post deleted

Nomad4Ever · May 25, 2022

RetiredUSN said:
Violence glorified in video games, online forums, in music, in movies.......etc. etc. etc.

This has been repeatedly shown to be completely unfounded. There is absolutely no correlation whatsoever.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

RetiredUSN said:
There are a lot of reasons for running amuck.

Violence glorified in video games, online forums, in music, in movies.......etc. etc. etc.

Poor parental supervision, and latch key kids who sit home alone behind their computer screens for years on end.

Politicians using more and more volatile rhetoric stirring up the borderline mentally ill among their base.

It's only going to get worse here in the US as each new generation gets more and more violent and the copy cat killers want to go out in a blaze of glory.

I'll agree that those things can potentially contribute to the problem.

Yet, there are individuals who fit all those points, but never "run amok"... the vast majority of people, actually.

I think the problem is deeper, rooted in the human mind and psyche, a fundamental flaw in a certain % of human beings, and that it needs to be examined and addressed if we seriously want to mitigate these incidents.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

HangLow said:
View attachment 67392824

This is exactly the cycle I am trying to break, by addressing actual root causes and not symptoms.

Gateman_Wen · May 25, 2022

RetiredUSN said:
There are a lot of reasons for running amuck.

Violence glorified in video games, online forums, in music, in movies.......etc. etc. etc.

Poor parental supervision, and latch key kids who sit home alone behind their computer screens for years on end.

Politicians using more and more volatile rhetoric stirring up the borderline mentally ill among their base.

It's only going to get worse here in the US as each new generation gets more and more violent and the copy cat killers want to go out in a blaze of glory.

That was debunked back in the 1980's when Topper Gore tried it on for size,

Goshin · May 25, 2022

Gateman_Wen said:
That was debunked back in the 1980's when Topper Gore tried it on for size,

A dismissive one-liner is a poor response... but don't strain yourself.

Gateman_Wen · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
"Running amok" was originally associated with Indonesia, Maylasia, and the Philippines. It referred to an individual, suddenly or after a period of brooding, taking a weapon, running into a crowd, and slaughtering people indiscriminately in an apparent frenzy. The word (also juramentado) became known to the West in the 18th century.
The phenomenon has been conjectured to be related to similar states in other cultures, including Norse berserkers, and has been included in the psychiatric list of disorders as a non-cultural disorder.
Mass murder is not a new thing. In 1927 the worst school massacre ever was perpetrated with dynamite, killing 38 schoolchildren and 6 adults.
Nor is it only in the USA: the Norway massacre took 77 lives, and studies from 2009-2015 showed Europe has a comparable number of fatalities from random mass murder to the US. Around 2010 China experienced a series of school mass stabbings that left 90 dead and over 400 injured, some with lifelong impairments.
Looking back through history it is possible to find many individuals who would fit the modern definition of a mass murderer.
In the 1968 novel Stand on Zanzibar, author John Brunner made a number of notably correct predictions, such as correctly forecasting wearable technology, Viagra, video calls, same-sex marriage, the legalization of cannabis, and the proliferation of mass murders with rising population density. In the book, there were mass shootings, mass stabbing/slashing, and sabotage of elevators or trains killing dozens or hundreds, by "muckers" (amok-ers).
"In Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are clearly depicted as a response to overpopulation, a response which the mucker themselves can’t control: in the midst of an attack, a mucker according to Brunner is “in a berserk frame of reference and will not feel any pain.” In the 2010 of Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are reported as routinely as the weather."

The population density is rising generally, and the Internet may cause a *perception* of high population density: social media makes social interactions frequent, rapid and seemingly unavoidable, much like inner-city living, even for those in small towns.
I believe what we're seeing is an entirely explainable increase of incidents, revealing a fundamental flaw of human nature. Some people reach a point, due to mental illness, stress, conflict or struggle (or all the above) where they "can't take it anymore" and go berserk.
I think this is the chief explanation for these incidents, and the main reason they are increasing.

It is a psychological (and possibly sociological) problem; we probably need to find a psychological (/sociological) solution, one that addresses the deep causal agents, rather than focusing on the superficial elements of individual incidents, if we really want to make a serious dent in this problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/c...nks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

This seems like yet another attempt to deflect the conversation from gun control to something less helpful.

Gateman_Wen · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
A dismissive one-liner is a poor response... but don't strain yourself.

That is all that is needed for the OP.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

Gateman_Wen said:
This seems like yet another attempt to deflect the conversation from gun control to something less helpful.

It is an attempt to get at the root of the problem; to demonstrate it is more widespread than some seem to believe, with roots going back further than many wish to admit.
But feel free to ignore it, as you seem inclined to do.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

Gateman_Wen said:
That is all that is needed for the OP.

You seem to have said all you came to say, so.... bye. Perhaps someone else has something useful to say.

Lutherf · May 25, 2022

We have had guns for 400 years (400 years before that, actually, but in common use by the 1600s), repeating firearms for 150 years and automatic firearms for more than 100 years. For the VAST majority of that time mass shootings were quite rare. It wasn't until the 1980s that we started to see an increase in such incidents and it's only been the past 15 years or so that these incidents have become anything close to frequent. That alone would indicate that the motivation for this kind of thing is cultural rather than based on the availability of guns.

Port & Starboard · May 25, 2022

Gateman_Wen said:
That was debunked back in the 1980's when Topper Gore tried it on for size,

And yet it's being discussed more and more by people who actually work in the mental illness feild, and not being supposedly debunked by some person on a chat forum.

reflechissez · May 25, 2022

Gateman_Wen said:
This seems like yet another attempt to deflect the conversation from gun control to something less helpful.

That's exactly what it is.

Exquisitor · May 25, 2022

RetiredUSN said:
There are a lot of reasons for running amuck.

Violence glorified in video games, online forums, in music, in movies.......etc. etc. etc.

Poor parental supervision, and latch key kids who sit home alone behind their computer screens for years on end.

Politicians using more and more volatile rhetoric stirring up the borderline mentally ill among their base.

It's only going to get worse here in the US as each new generation gets more and more violent and the copy cat killers want to go out in a blaze of glory.

Slaughterhouses are the reason.

Don't know the solution.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

Exquisitor said:
Slaughterhouses are the reason.

Don't know the solution.

Interestingly enough, there have been quite a few scholarly studies showing that slaughterhouse employees tend to engage in more criminal and violent acts than the general population. Part of that may be that those are not the best jobs and may be filled by people who can't get better, but well-educated minds have been pondering the matter.

CaughtInThe · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
"Running amok" was originally associated with Indonesia, Maylasia, and the Philippines. It referred to an individual, suddenly or after a period of brooding, taking a weapon, running into a crowd, and slaughtering people indiscriminately in an apparent frenzy. The word (also juramentado) became known to the West in the 18th century.
The phenomenon has been conjectured to be related to similar states in other cultures, including Norse berserkers, and has been included in the psychiatric list of disorders as a non-cultural disorder.
Mass murder is not a new thing. In 1927 the worst school massacre ever was perpetrated with dynamite, killing 38 schoolchildren and 6 adults.
Nor is it only in the USA: the Norway massacre took 77 lives, and studies from 2009-2015 showed Europe has a comparable number of fatalities from random mass murder to the US. Around 2010 China experienced a series of school mass stabbings that left 90 dead and over 400 injured, some with lifelong impairments.
Looking back through history it is possible to find many individuals who would fit the modern definition of a mass murderer.
In the 1968 novel Stand on Zanzibar, author John Brunner made a number of notably correct predictions, such as correctly forecasting wearable technology, Viagra, video calls, same-sex marriage, the legalization of cannabis, and the proliferation of mass murders with rising population density. In the book, there were mass shootings, mass stabbing/slashing, and sabotage of elevators or trains killing dozens or hundreds, by "muckers" (amok-ers).
"In Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are clearly depicted as a response to overpopulation, a response which the mucker themselves can’t control: in the midst of an attack, a mucker according to Brunner is “in a berserk frame of reference and will not feel any pain.” In the 2010 of Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are reported as routinely as the weather."

The population density is rising generally, and the Internet may cause a *perception* of high population density: social media makes social interactions frequent, rapid and seemingly unavoidable, much like inner-city living, even for those in small towns.
I believe what we're seeing is an entirely explainable increase of incidents, revealing a fundamental flaw of human nature. Some people reach a point, due to mental illness, stress, conflict or struggle (or all the above) where they "can't take it anymore" and go berserk.
I think this is the chief explanation for these incidents, and the main reason they are increasing.

It is a psychological (and possibly sociological) problem; we probably need to find a psychological (/sociological) solution, one that addresses the deep causal agents, rather than focusing on the superficial elements of individual incidents, if we really want to make a serious dent in this problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/c...nks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

grip · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
"Running amok" was originally associated with Indonesia, Maylasia, and the Philippines. It referred to an individual, suddenly or after a period of brooding, taking a weapon, running into a crowd, and slaughtering people indiscriminately in an apparent frenzy. The word (also juramentado) became known to the West in the 18th century.
The phenomenon has been conjectured to be related to similar states in other cultures, including Norse berserkers, and has been included in the psychiatric list of disorders as a non-cultural disorder.
Mass murder is not a new thing. In 1927 the worst school massacre ever was perpetrated with dynamite, killing 38 schoolchildren and 6 adults.
Nor is it only in the USA: the Norway massacre took 77 lives, and studies from 2009-2015 showed Europe has a comparable number of fatalities from random mass murder to the US. Around 2010 China experienced a series of school mass stabbings that left 90 dead and over 400 injured, some with lifelong impairments.
Looking back through history it is possible to find many individuals who would fit the modern definition of a mass murderer.
In the 1968 novel Stand on Zanzibar, author John Brunner made a number of notably correct predictions, such as correctly forecasting wearable technology, Viagra, video calls, same-sex marriage, the legalization of cannabis, and the proliferation of mass murders with rising population density. In the book, there were mass shootings, mass stabbing/slashing, and sabotage of elevators or trains killing dozens or hundreds, by "muckers" (amok-ers).
"In Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are clearly depicted as a response to overpopulation, a response which the mucker themselves can’t control: in the midst of an attack, a mucker according to Brunner is “in a berserk frame of reference and will not feel any pain.” In the 2010 of Stand on Zanzibar, muckers are reported as routinely as the weather."

The population density is rising generally, and the Internet may cause a *perception* of high population density: social media makes social interactions frequent, rapid and seemingly unavoidable, much like inner-city living, even for those in small towns.
I believe what we're seeing is an entirely explainable increase of incidents, revealing a fundamental flaw of human nature. Some people reach a point, due to mental illness, stress, conflict or struggle (or all the above) where they "can't take it anymore" and go berserk.
I think this is the chief explanation for these incidents, and the main reason they are increasing.

It is a psychological (and possibly sociological) problem; we probably need to find a psychological (/sociological) solution, one that addresses the deep causal agents, rather than focusing on the superficial elements of individual incidents, if we really want to make a serious dent in this problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_Zanzibar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/c...nks-11th-in-fatalities-and-12th-in-frequency/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China

Unfortunately, berserkers are part of the natural consequences of individual thinking and can not be completely fixed.

Lloyd Christmas · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
A dismissive one-liner is a poor response... but don't strain yourself.

That one liner response was in response to a one liner response comment without any supporting information, or even argument. Also, its just inherently well known to be stupid. But you expect more in response? Plus, teh statement was 100% factual, there is no link between violent video games and violence, just like

What there is a huge link between increased violence, which asshole republicans want to do nothing about, is poverty. Desperation for survival leads to a lot of bad human "animalistic" behavior (granted, humans are animals so I guess all our behavior is animalistic).

CaughtInThe · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
Interestingly enough, there have been quite a few scholarly studies showing that slaughterhouse employees tend to engage in more criminal and violent acts than the general population. Part of that may be that those are not the best jobs and may be filled by people who can't get better, but well-educated minds have been pondering the matter.

Exquisitor · May 25, 2022

Goshin said:
Interestingly enough, there have been quite a few scholarly studies showing that slaughterhouse employees tend to engage in more criminal and violent acts than the general population. Part of that may be that those are not the best jobs and may be filled by people who can't get better, but well-educated minds have been pondering the matter.

Well, once we slaughtered up the Indian cattle, we had war, literally and so today, so as reparation, we should all become vegetarians.

Ween them from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Goshin · May 25, 2022

Exquisitor said:
Well, once we slaughtered up the Indian cattle, we had war, literally and so today, so as reparation, we should all become vegetarians.

Ween them from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Can't say I really followed that.

Lloyd Christmas · May 25, 2022

Lutherf said:
We have had guns for 400 years (400 years before that, actually, but in common use by the 1600s), repeating firearms for 150 years and automatic firearms for more than 100 years. For the VAST majority of that time mass shootings were quite rare. It wasn't until the 1980s that we started to see an increase in such incidents and it's only been the past 15 years or so that these incidents have become anything close to frequent. That alone would indicate that the motivation for this kind of thing is cultural rather than based on the availability of guns.

This is another person with this ridiculous rousy view of the past. This country has had violence throughtout the entire history. Striking workers were beaten and killed. Mobs raided a successful black town adn burned it to the ground. Peple were lynched, the wild west with robberries and other shootings. Slaughtering indians.

This is what happens when history is sugar coated and people don't learn past primary school, they have this childish view of the past which is not reality.

reinaert · May 25, 2022

...anything but 300 million guns...

"Running Amok": an explanation for random mass murder

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