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Rolling blackouts in California, or The Failure of Renewable energy.

I gather that this is a current right wing line.

Short sightedly blaming brownouts on renewable energy.

It’s typical. When you ignore progress and start from the premise that everything was as it always was, the future is not obvious at all.

Battery storage will transform the electric power industry. It will lessen the need for large base power plants (which Wall Street doesn’t want to finance anymore, anyway).

Battery storage will also completely eliminate the duck curve that has been the bane of large scale electric power utilities for 100 years.

Of course, something like this is way above the discussion level of AM talk radio or cable tv news.

But using renewables to provide both base load, and storage to bridge the peak gaps is proven in the field on a commercial scale.

The wholesale shift to renewables in the first world is accelerating even now.

If you doubt that. Just consider the performance of Tesla stock to that General Electric, Westinghouse, or any of the large central plant power companies.

Wall Street has voted for the future with its pocketbook.
 
Drawdown said:
No the biggest issue for commercially generated solar is the storage problem. The government doesn't want end consumers generating their own unless it is grid-tied because it only supports solutions that are taxable.
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That’s odd.

The solar panels on my roof have been generating their own power for four years now. I haven’t heard a word from “the government” about it.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that batteries and solar panel systems will be sold in box stores the same way that central air conditioning is now.
 
mike2810 said:
Not quite true GP. AZ closed the coal fired plant.
"Arizona's Navajo Generating Station, the state's second-largest power plant, closed in 2019, removing 40% of Arizona's coal-fired capacity from service and causing the closure of the state's only operating coal mine."
Arizona - State Energy Profile Overview - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

The source of imported electricity more likely comes from Palo Verde Nuclear plant.

Green Energy makes sense. One just needs to work into it. The biggest issue for solar is the energy storage problem.
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The cost of battery technology is falling through the floor. It’s viability as a substitute for peaker power plants has also been demonstrated on a commercial scale.

In five years, battery farms will be appearing everywhere, and many, if not most of them, will be fed by renewables. Renewables are on par or cheaper that fossil fuel power now.

And they are not saddled with the huge capital investment requirements or long term commitments that the traditional large scale power plants that have been the industry’s standard since the days of Sam Insull.
 
TomFitz said:
The cost of battery technology is falling through the floor. It’s viability as a substitute for peaker power plants has also been demonstrated on a commercial scale.

In five years, battery farms will be appearing everywhere, and many, if not most of them, will be fed by renewables. Renewables are on par or cheaper that fossil fuel power now.

And they are not saddled with the huge capital investment requirements or long term commitments that the traditional large scale power plants that have been the industry’s standard since the days of Sam Insull.
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I agree. The point is till "green energy" is able to provide the need 24/7, there still is a place for our current plants.
 
mike2810 said:
I agree. The point is till "green energy" is able to provide the need 24/7, there still is a place for our current plants.
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Of course.

As anyone who follows the industry (and particular the investment decisions related to it) can see.

There is no longer significant investment in large central power plant construction.

Nearly all the money is in natural gas and renewables. And many in the industry predict a glut in natural gas plants due to over building. Natural gas has the disadvantage of being a high cost fuel, as the boom in it depends on fracking, which is not the most expensive oil to produce, but it’s near the top. And all the fracking companies are hanging by threads right now, producing at breakneck speed just to generate enough cash to make the payments on their junk bonds (and pay Trump).

The existing large scale electric power infrastructure, coal, nuclear and the rest, are being run till it no longer makes sense for them to do so. They are not being replaced by similar types of facilities.

The coal barons blanketed West Virginia with billboards blaming Obama for the decline in their industry. Of course, it couldn’t have had anything to do with high capital cost of building the plant, and the high fixed costs of running them. Nor the need for elaborate rail delivery, material handling and air pollution and waste disposal infrastructure.

No one thinks that this type of investment is worth it. Not for coal, and not for nuclear. No one thinks that they’ll even be viable.

Especially when a wind or solar field can be developed much more quickly, and cheaply.

It took less than a year to build the first decent scale integrated wind and battery farm, and three years for the investors to get payback.

Coal, nuclear and natural gas can’t even come close to matching that performance.

The future is coming fast. And it will be clean, flexible and cheap.
 
Peter said:
By what metric is the US leading the world?
The UK has made great strides in building the worlds largest offshore wind farms (the north sea is famously windy and not super deep so perfect for them) and shutting down all but 3 coal fired power stations which are due to close in the near future but I'm unsure if we lead the world.
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The United States saw the largest decline in energy-related CO2 emissions in 2019 on a country basis – a fall of 140 Mt, or 2.9%, to 4.8 Gt. US emissions are now down almost 1 Gt from their peak in the year 2000, the largest absolute decline by any country over that period. A 15% reduction in the use of coal for power generation underpinned the decline in overall US emissions in 2019. Coal-fired power plants faced even stronger competition from natural gas-fired generation, with benchmark gas prices an average of 45% lower than 2018 levels. As a result, gas increased its share in electricity generation to a record high of 37%. Overall electricity demand declined because demand for air-conditioning and heating was lower as a result of milder summer and winter weather.
Global CO2 emissions in 2019 – Analysis - IEA
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I agree that this is a nuanced issue, but the data mostly support Pruitt's claim.


According to the 2017 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, since 2005 annual U.S. carbon dioxide emissions have declined by 758 million metric tons. That is by far the largest decline of any country in the world over that timespan and is nearly as large as the 770 million metric ton decline for the entire European Union.


By comparison, the second largest decline during that period was registered by the United Kingdom, which reported a 170 million metric ton decline. At the same time, China's carbon dioxide emissions grew by 3 billion metric tons, and India's grew by 1 billion metric tons.
Yes, The U.S. Leads All Countries In Reducing Carbon Emissions
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:shrug:
 
TomFitz said:
Here, read this. You might learn something.

Wind and batteries saved the day when storm cut South Australia adrift | RenewEconomy
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[h=2]SA renewable electricity market mayhem as frequency stabilizing costs hit record breaking $90 million[/h]
Since SA was islanded the costs just to keep the frequency stable are as much as the energy itself
Two weeks ago the Australian grid had a major near miss, and South Australia has been isolated from the rest of the nation ever since. It was supposed to be connected again in two weeks, but repairs to the 6 high voltage towers that fell over, evidently will be longer. Strangely, apparently no news outlet has mentioned this in the last two weeks.
While SA has been the renewables star of the world for two weeks, there’s been mayhem in the market. Instead of cheap electricity with 50% renewables it’s chaos. Allan O’Neill explains that the cost of stabilizing the grid has gone through the roof. It’s so bad, and generators have to contribute to balance their output, that solar and wind power are holding back from supply because they can’t afford to pay the costs to cover their share of frequency stability.
But when South Australia became islanded by the transmission line collapse, FCAS requirements for that region could only be supplied from local providers – and there is only a small subset of participants in South Australia [...]
 
TomFitz said:
Of course.

As anyone who follows the industry (and particular the investment decisions related to it) can see.

There is no longer significant investment in large central power plant construction.

Nearly all the money is in natural gas and renewables. And many in the industry predict a glut in natural gas plants due to over building. Natural gas has the disadvantage of being a high cost fuel, as the boom in it depends on fracking, which is not the most expensive oil to produce, but it’s near the top. And all the fracking companies are hanging by threads right now, producing at breakneck speed just to generate enough cash to make the payments on their junk bonds (and pay Trump).

The existing large scale electric power infrastructure, coal, nuclear and the rest, are being run till it no longer makes sense for them to do so. They are not being replaced by similar types of facilities.

The coal barons blanketed West Virginia with billboards blaming Obama for the decline in their industry. Of course, it couldn’t have had anything to do with high capital cost of building the plant, and the high fixed costs of running them. Nor the need for elaborate rail delivery, material handling and air pollution and waste disposal infrastructure.

No one thinks that this type of investment is worth it. Not for coal, and not for nuclear. No one thinks that they’ll even be viable.

Especially when a wind or solar field can be developed much more quickly, and cheaply.

It took less than a year to build the first decent scale integrated wind and battery farm, and three years for the investors to get payback.

Coal, nuclear and natural gas can’t even come close to matching that performance.

The future is coming fast. And it will be clean, flexible and cheap.
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Ridiculous, wind and solar are insanely bad for the environment and biodiversity in the area they are found, they have absolutely nothing on nuclear power, including public safety. You could have a Chernobyl every decade, which is an insane proposition as we don't build Russian plants in cities and never will, and it would still be safer throughout a lifetime than any of the other sources are in just one year.

The paranoia over nuclear power plants comes from coal barons, the same ones you say you don't like but you fall for their crap hook line and sinker. And for what, for ugly "farms" of bird and animal killers. No thanks.

Unless you can figure out how to put solar panels in the desert and get voltage to the cities, that would work, but even then maintenance would be very expensive as the elements would wreak havoc on the panels.

Wind power is evil no matter how you look at it, a killer and noise polluter, want nothing to do with it, at least not as the mainstream, although I could get behind small turbines for individual farms.
 
Rexedgar said:
I don’t know that California is the place for nuclear energy.

Fukushima Daiichi Accident - World Nuclear Association
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Why not, California is the third largest state and 16% is desert, plenty of area to place a plant or two or more. We had a very good facility at San Onofre but it is in the process of decommissioning. I remember that right after the movie The China Syndrome came out, the protests against nuclear plants started. If one wants to know how to build safe plants, talk to the French. France gets over 75% of its electricity from nuclear energy and has 58 nuclear reactors that have been in operation for many years without a single serious accident.
 
July 30 (Reuters) - The owner of a big Nevada solar-thermal power plant that received $737 million in loans from the U.S. Department of Energy filed for bankruptcy on Thursday, according to a court filing, potentially leaving U.S. taxpayers with a whopping bill.

The project’s failure is a blow to the DOE renewable energy loan program, which had already been criticized by Republicans as a waste of money after it backed failed solar panel maker Solyndra during the Obama administration.

Tonopah Solar Energy LLC still owes $425 million on its DOE loan, but reached a settlement under which the department will recover at least $200 million, it said in court documents filed in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware. …
It has not operated since April of 2019.
U.S. solar power plant backed by over $700 mln in govt loans goes bust -filing - Reuters

Biden is promising billions for more of the same. So we can all feel good about what we are doing to save the planet, even when we are accomplishing nothing. .
 
Yes, some renewable companies are going to go bust that's not a reason to just dump the whole idea of renewable energy.
 
Peter said:
Yes, some renewable companies are going to go bust that's not a reason to just dump the whole idea of renewable energy.
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Just dump the idea of $millions in government loan guarantees to companies that cant pay it back.
 
dixon01767 said:
Just dump the idea of $millions in government loan guarantees to companies that cant pay it back.
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You do realise that at the start oil companies required huge subsidies and even now get tax breaks if the price tanks.

Renewable energy will be the vast majority of global power generation in just a generation and there's no going back however much you complain about it.
Once hydrogen storage and grid storage though the use of the batteries in electric cars and power walls things will look a lot better than they do now.

It's not going to happen overnight but fossil fuels are on the way out fast and that's a good thing.
 
Peter said:
You do realise that at the start oil companies required huge subsidies and even now get tax breaks if the price tanks.

Renewable energy will be the vast majority of global power generation in just a generation and there's no going back however much you complain about it.
Once hydrogen storage and grid storage though the use of the batteries in electric cars and power walls things will look a lot better than they do now.

It's not going to happen overnight but fossil fuels are on the way out fast and that's a good thing.
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"Renewables are the energy of tomorrow and always will be.":mrgreen:
 
Jack Hays said:
"Renewables are the energy of tomorrow and always will be.":mrgreen:
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Maybe in the US but in Europe there's a big push for renewables and storage.
I live within walking distance (there's a lovely walking route the council made that goes right past it and I spent quite a bit of time doing the route while on furlough) of a 9 turbine wind farm that was built a few years ago. You can go up to them and sit on the steps that leads to the door that the repair people use.

It's why I find it really odd when people make complaints about noise as even sitting directly underneath them I can hardly hear it and there's a main road about half a mile away which is much louder.
Also the idea that they kill birds in huge numbers doesn't seem right as I've not seen any dead birds and these turbines are in fields surrounded by trees and quite a few birds about. This is obviously anecdotal but I honestly think birds are not stupid enough to fly into these things as they're bloody massive and they aren't exactly helicopters on their side fast.
 
Ikari said:
Well we should invest in nuclear energy really. It's the cleanest, safest, most reliable form of energy we have currently.
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That, and we should push harder for additional funding to research fusion.
 

Gizmodo Blames Natural Gas for California’s Rolling Black Outs

Guest “too fracking funny” by David Middleton CLIMATE CHANGERenewable Energy Isn’t to Blame for California’s Blackouts Dharna NoorWednesday On Friday and Saturday, hundreds of thousands of Californians had their power cut for a spurt in the evening. And more of this could be in store in the coming days as record breaking heat beats down on the state and wildfires…
Continue reading →
 
I am trying to feel sorry for Californians right now with all the rolling blackouts but they asked for it. Maybe if they suffer through no air conditioning during a heatwave, no refrigeration, no TV, no internet, no lights, etc. maybe while they sit in the dark hot and sweaty they have time to ponder over the choices they made. Personally those I feel sorry for are the kids. They can not even access internet to do their schooling.
 
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