Republicans Must Apologize for Kansas and Louisiana

[MrT]

I am not usually a fan of "Can you imagine what would happen in X did Y, and Z would react." But, I want you to imagine this scenario with me. Suppose that instead of a Tea Party sweeping into power in 2010, we had a liberal wave. And now, let's imagine that Bernie Sanders became the governor of Vermont and a liberal house and senate enacted every liberal policy (free college education, single payer health-care system, raising minimum wages and raised taxes) that they could want.

And then, six years later, the state of Vermont was in utter ruin. Unemployment skyrocketed, the State turned a massive surplus into a massive debt, schools shut down, and pensions were cut. If that happened, would you want the Democratic candidates to answer questions about the failure of their model blue state failure? Would you be pissed if the media did not ask those questions? What if I told you that the Democratic candidates are proposing national tax plans that are predicated on the same failed models?

And yet, that is the exact scenario that we are seeing in the Republican Primary. Kansas and Louisiana now face a whole host of issues that are a direct result of the ultra-conservative economic policies enacted by their respective republican governors. And yet, the Republican candidates are proposing tax policies that relies on the type of "dynamic scoring" that consistently underestimated the cost of tax cuts in Kansas.

The GOP front runner's praise of mob violence and religious discrimination has spurred a lot of righteous outrage from the National Review. Kansas' shortened school-years spurred none. When Donald Trump makes a gaffe, reporters confront Republican leaders and demand a response. When the GOP's economic platform decimates two U.S. states, a similar confrontation is in order.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/03/gop-must-answer-for-what-it-did-to-kansas.html

 

[VanceMack]

RATS must apologize for their dismal failure and the destruction of minority communities in every major city across the nation.

This should a fun game.

 

[WCH]

Wait...I thought you folks said debt doesn't matter?

 

[gdgyva]

i cant wait for the explanations for Illinois, California, New Jersey and others

And the unemployment rate for young people, and black & hispanic people

Yeah....we can start there....

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Wait...I thought you folks said debt doesn't matter?

Confuses federal macro.....with states macro.

Sigh.

 

[cpwill]

I am not usually a fan of "Can you imagine what would happen in X did Y, and Z would react." But, I want you to imagine this scenario with me. Suppose that instead of a Tea Party sweeping into power in 2010, we had a liberal wave. And now, let's imagine that Bernie Sanders became the governor of Vermont and a liberal house and senate enacted every liberal policy (free college education, single payer health-care system, raising minimum wages and raised taxes) that they could want.

And then, six years later, the state of Vermont was in utter ruin. Unemployment skyrocketed, the State turned a massive surplus into a massive debt, schools shut down, and pensions were cut. If that happened, would you want the Democratic candidates to answer questions about the failure of their model blue state failure? Would you be pissed if the media did not ask those questions? What if I told you that the Democratic candidates are proposing national tax plans that are predicated on the same failed models?

Well. Okay. I'm interested. Tell us - is the Left going to admit that the ongoing collapse of Venezuela, and historical underperformance of socialist societies solidly indicates that their model is broken?

 

[MrT]

i cant wait for the explanations for Illinois, California, New Jersey and others

And the unemployment rate for young people, and black & hispanic people

Yeah....we can start there....

...are you really trying to "start" by shifting to a discussion about three diverse geographic areas with very little in common (not the least of which is the fact that some of those areas are doing very well economically) AND a discussion of unemployment rates amongst multiple demographics?

Dude.

 

[MrT]

Well. Okay. I'm interested. Tell us - is the Left going to admit that the ongoing collapse of Venezuela, and historical underperformance of socialist societies solidly indicates that their model is broken?

I'll tell you what is interesting to me. We have four respondents so far that would qualify as conservatives and every. single. one. is using their post to raise and ask for a discussion about a liberal example that they deem to be a failure.

How about you guys at least start your post by addressing the specific examples and data raised by my OP before trying to completely shift the debate? Or better yet, take your other examples to a thread of your own.

 

[Crovax]

Well. Okay. I'm interested. Tell us - is the Left going to admit that the ongoing collapse of Venezuela, and historical underperformance of socialist societies solidly indicates that their model is broken?

Not just admit, like the request in the OP they must "apologize"

 

[cpwill]

I'll tell you what is interesting to me. We have four respondents so far that would qualify as conservatives and every. single. one. is using their post to raise and ask for a discussion about a liberal example that they deem to be a failure.

How about you guys at least start your post by addressing the specific examples and data raised by my OP before trying to completely shift the debate? Or better yet, take your other examples to a thread of your own.

We are demonstrating that you do not actually mean the logic implicit in your OP, since you are not willing to apply it in scenarios where doing so would prove unfortunate for your own ideological beliefs .

 

[MrT]

We are demonstrating that you do not actually mean the logic implicit in your OP, since you are not willing to apply it in scenarios where doing so would prove unfortunate for your own ideological beliefs .

I will readily admit to a relevant example. But the fact is that there are not any relevant example in the United States, of which I am aware. You really think that Venezuela is comparable to taking a prosperous U.S. state, enacting a ideologically driven economic system, ignoring the results of those policies, and then pushing for a national version of that system without addressing why a national version would avoid the pitfalls of the local version?

 

[gdgyva]

...are you really trying to "start" by shifting to a discussion about three diverse geographic areas with very little in common (not the least of which is the fact that some of those areas are doing very well economically) AND a discussion of unemployment rates amongst multiple demographics?

Dude.

California economy will keep plodding through '16, UCLA forecast says - LA Times
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois_ranked_third_worst_in_economic_outlook_and_performance/

Unemployment

The number of unemployed youth was 2.8 million in July 2015, down from 3.4 million a
year earlier. The youth unemployment rate was 12.2 percent in July 2015, 2.1 percentage
points less than a year before. Among the major demographic groups, July unemployment
rates were lower than the prior year for young men (12.7 percent), women (11.7 percent),
whites (10.3 percent), blacks (20.7 percent), and Hispanics (12.7 percent). The youth
jobless rate changed little for Asians (10.7 percent). (See table 2.)

Employment and Unemployment Among Youth Summary

yeah...the democrats are doing a bang up job for their constituents, arent they?

speaking of bang up....

2016 Stats | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

Rahm Emanuel....another great job by another in a LONG LINE of democratic mayors of Chicago

 

[cpwill]

I will readily admit to a relevant example. But the fact is that there are not any relevant example in the United States, of which I am aware.

Then you should check out the 1930s, or perhaps the 1970s.

However, simply saying "oh, well, that's not Americans, so it doesn't count" isn't really an excuse. The socialist model consistently underperforms where it doesn't fail. That's a reality. The free market model consistently succeeds, sometimes wildly. That's also a reality.

You really think that Venezuela is comparable to taking a prosperous U.S. state, enacting a ideologically driven economic system, ignoring the results of those policies, and then pushing for a national version of that system without addressing why a national version would avoid the pitfalls of the local version?

If you want a good side-by-side comparison, you might try something like California v Texas.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Why stop with just Kansas and Louisiana?

 

[ocean515]

I am not usually a fan of "Can you imagine what would happen in X did Y, and Z would react." But, I want you to imagine this scenario with me. Suppose that instead of a Tea Party sweeping into power in 2010, we had a liberal wave. And now, let's imagine that Bernie Sanders became the governor of Vermont and a liberal house and senate enacted every liberal policy (free college education, single payer health-care system, raising minimum wages and raised taxes) that they could want.

And then, six years later, the state of Vermont was in utter ruin. Unemployment skyrocketed, the State turned a massive surplus into a massive debt, schools shut down, and pensions were cut. If that happened, would you want the Democratic candidates to answer questions about the failure of their model blue state failure? Would you be pissed if the media did not ask those questions? What if I told you that the Democratic candidates are proposing national tax plans that are predicated on the same failed models?

And yet, that is the exact scenario that we are seeing in the Republican Primary. Kansas and Louisiana now face a whole host of issues that are a direct result of the ultra-conservative economic policies enacted by their respective republican governors. And yet, the Republican candidates are proposing tax policies that relies on the type of "dynamic scoring" that consistently underestimated the cost of tax cuts in Kansas.



http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/03/gop-must-answer-for-what-it-did-to-kansas.html

My guess is Republicans will probably demand liberal/socialist Progressives will need to apologize for California, and perhaps a couple other states, first.

 

[MrT]

My guess is Republicans will probably demand liberal/socialist Progressives will need to apologize for California, and perhaps a couple other states, first.

No need to really guess about that one - just read this thread.

 

[VanceMack]

i cant wait for the explanations for Illinois, California, New Jersey and others

And the unemployment rate for young people, and black & hispanic people

Yeah....we can start there....

Dont you know? Thats 'different'.

 

[Visbek]

i cant wait for the explanations for Illinois, California, New Jersey and others

New Jersey got screwed by Chris Christie and his policies. Well, sort of -- he has spent almost no time in the state, and basically hasn't done his job, because he was first too busy vainly running for President, and now unconvincingly kissing Trump's ass.

The few times he bothered to drop by Trenton, he publicly refused to raise taxes, while simultaneously cutting certain tax breaks for the poor. He tried to cut income taxes, and was blocked by the legislature. He limited real estate tax growth, deliberately underfunded pensions he promised he'd fund, cut payments to a disability fund, and presided over multiple downgrades to the state's credits. Great example you picked.

California has major revenue issues because of -- wait for it -- a tax break passed by referendum in 1978, which holds down property tax rates. This means the state is especially vulnerable to economic downturns, as it relies heavily on income and sales taxes. Despite this and other big challenges, Governor Moonbeam and his Democratic legislature have made CA's fiscal situation far more secure, and basically pulled the state back from the brink. I.e. another killer example of your point which was, what exactly...?

I'm not as familiar with Illinois, though as with many states it's got issues. However, it doesn't appear that Illinois is anywhere near as badly off as Kansas and Louisiana.

More critically, states like California and Illinois have radically changed course, instead of doubling down on policies that are abject failures. The same cannot be said for Kansas and Louisiana, whose elected leaders appear intent on driving their governments into bankruptcy, while claiming it will take up to 10 years before their brilliant plans work.

 

[VanceMack]

No need to really guess about that one - just read this thread.

Of course. Hey...we can all be honest here. There isnt a dimes difference between the two parties and both have ****ed things up horribly. But when you are sitting in a heaping mound of ****, talking to other people about their **** may not be the wisest tactic. Unless of course your goal was to make yourself look silly, in which case...well played, sir.

 

[VanceMack]

Well. Okay. I'm interested. Tell us - is the Left going to admit that the ongoing collapse of Venezuela, and historical underperformance of socialist societies solidly indicates that their model is broken?

No...in fact the left is going to run a candidate that thinks taking us to an economic socialist paradisiacal state like Venezuela WOULD BE JUST SWELL.

 

[sangha]

Unemployment

The number of unemployed youth was 2.8 million in July 2015, down from 3.4 million a
year earlier. The youth unemployment rate was 12.2 percent in July 2015, 2.1 percentage
points less than a year before. Among the major demographic groups, July unemployment
rates were lower than the prior year for young men (12.7 percent), women (11.7 percent),
whites (10.3 percent), blacks (20.7 percent), and Hispanics (12.7 percent). The youth
jobless rate changed little for Asians (10.7 percent). (See table 2.)

Employment and Unemployment Among Youth Summary

yeah...the democrats are doing a bang up job for their constituents, arent they?

Lower unemployment is A Bad Thing?

 

[Moot]

The states are like petri dishes of economic experiments and when an experiment fails it's probably not a good idea to implement it nationwide...unless of course you want the entire country to fail and a lower standard of living.


Big tax cuts come back to bite states: Our view

 

[gdgyva]

I'll tell you what is interesting to me. We have four respondents so far that would qualify as conservatives and every. single. one. is using their post to raise and ask for a discussion about a liberal example that they deem to be a failure.

How about you guys at least start your post by addressing the specific examples and data raised by my OP before trying to completely shift the debate? Or better yet, take your other examples to a thread of your own.

because for every failure of one of our governors...of which there are a few, we can show you numerous failures on YOUR side of the ledger

only when we bring it up, it somehow is different

or there is a valid excuse

or they havent gotten the support they need

or a thousand other bull**** answers

there are failures on both sides of the aisle

dont start an OP just trying to throw one side off a cliff

 

[Erod]

Look at Venezuela, which is having to shut its electricity grids down for hours because the state can't afford it anymore.

This is Bernie Sanders' paradise on full display.

 

[gdgyva]

Lower unemployment is A Bad Thing?

if you think that over 20% unemployment is a GOOD number, i have to absolutely wonder how that community continues to vote for your side

or hell...how about almost 13% for the young hispanic community

damn fine job there...

kudos!

:shock: