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Republicans have secret plans to make Wisconsin a right-to-work (for less) state

Unions will soon cease to be a hinderance to industry running roughshod over their employees.

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Then people will finally realize the benefits the chinese workers enjoy without the great burden of unions!

$10 a day, a biscuit with tea and communal living with your coworkers in company dormitories. Whoopee!!!!

Interesting how in 1955 the top 400 income earners in the USA paid 52% tax on 13.7 million dollars per year (each)

In 2007 the top 400 in the USA paid 18% on a 300 million dollar income

And the top 400 income earners POST-Global Financial Crisis, are now earning even more than 300 million dollars per year on average

Minimum wage in the USA is $7.15 which has hardly increased over the past 15 years.

The top 400 require $144,000 per hour in order to survive

Now what persons work input is worth $144,000 per hour?
 
"Right to work" is a BS name for unnecessary law. Every one has the right to work, who you work for, and the job you do is dependent on your skills, your employer and how they choose to do business.

I've asked this question before, no one has given me a real answer. How exactly is any one forced to join a union? What ever career path you choose there are both union and non-union employers. If you don't want to join the IBEW you find an open shop, you are still an electrician. If you don't want to join the teachers union go find a private school to teach at, many of them don't have unions. Nobody told you that you need to be in the career you are in, if you don't like the fact that it is primarily union you can always pick another career.

Why are so many people that are not in unions so upset about them?
Private unions and their agreements with private employer are no ones business except for members of the union, and management of the employer.



Actually it is the unions business who they hire. There is a legal contract between the union and the employer.

Being a taxpayer I've never been able to choose to hire anyone for my city, county or state. Where is are taxpayers allowed to hire people, we can vote but all the offices we vote for, I'm pretty sure, are not union positions.

So you also would have no problem if the city you lived in voted to require you and everyone to be Republican or you couldn't live there - and required that you contribute a set amount to Republicans every week or you will be required to move. Afterall, there are thousands of other cities to live in that would have been a majority vote of your city.

Being required to be in a union is being required to financially contribute to the Democratic Party and Democratic politicians.
 
Why do you say it is "secret?" Most Republicans opposed close-shop laws. That's like claiming Democrats are "secretly" for pro-choice laws.
 
Every state should be a right to work state. I think it's wrong to force people into union.
 
Again why should a company use exclusively union in trades if that has not already been negotiated? While I agree that the company may be screwed up, just because the workers voted for the union doenst mean the company should have to negotiate with them. Why shouldnt they be able to fire them? Why should there be a law stating companies have to deal with them? What if the company wants to deal with different union in that particular trade?
Now you are changing the argument from a company that is already involved with the unions, to a group of workers that want to unionize. Right to work affects companies that are already involved with the union.

If you want to debate the topic of why employers should have to deal with unions we can, but lets keep this about right to work.
 
Interesting how in 1955 the top 400 income earners in the USA paid 52% tax on 13.7 million dollars per year (each)

In 2007 the top 400 in the USA paid 18% on a 300 million dollar income

And the top 400 income earners POST-Global Financial Crisis, are now earning even more than 300 million dollars per year on average

that's interesting... but why do I care?

Minimum wage in the USA is $7.15 which has hardly increased over the past 15 years.

and is still far too high. our most vulnerable and least-capable populace is effectively priced out of the workplace, ensuring that they are trapped permanently in a life of poverty. the minimum wage law was passed in order to harm our poor and minorities, and it has succeeded at doing just that.

The top 400 require $144,000 per hour in order to survive

Not at all, but apparently they make that.

Now what persons work input is worth $144,000 per hour?

Apparently theirs.
 
While I don't have information at the present on wage rates in union vs. non-union states, I would rather have liberty and less money than no liberty and no money.
 
and is still far too high. our most vulnerable and least-capable populace is effectively priced out of the workplace,

.

Seems like those top 400 on $144,000 per hour are pricing everyone out of the market don't you think mr cpwill?

So mr cpwill is appalled at the greed of those working on the minimum wage rate of $7.15 per hour who are clearly responsible for the obscene levels of poverty in the USA.

Cpwill laws: No limit to the levels of greed for the top 400 richest people and elite plutocrats BUT strict control of what people should work for on the minimum wage.

Interesting form of immoral barbarism.

I wonder if mr cpwill can survive on $7.15 per hour - oops sorry, much less than the greedy $7.15 per hour?
 
While I don't have information at the present on wage rates in union vs. non-union states, I would rather have liberty and less money than no liberty and no money.

So the fascist corpocracy that enslaves the US public has successfully indoctrinated you into believing that money is directly linked to liberty
 
So the fascist corpocracy that enslaves the US public has successfully indoctrinated you into believing that money is directly linked to liberty

Considering money is a primary part of peoples lives....yeah it is directly tied to liberty.

Also, unless you support the free market don't lecture me on fascism.
 
Considering money is a primary part of peoples lives....yeah it is directly tied to liberty.

Also, unless you support the free market don't lecture me on fascism.

You don't have a free market in the USA remember?

You have bail outs and protectionism for the rich
 
You don't have a free market in the USA remember?

You have bail outs and protectionism for the rich
Did I say the U.S. has a free market? No, we have a mixed economy.

Did I say I support bailouts and protectionism? I didn't, and I don't.
 
So you also would have no problem if the city you lived in voted to require you and everyone to be Republican or you couldn't live there - and required that you contribute a set amount to Republicans every week or you will be required to move. Afterall, there are thousands of other cities to live in that would have been a majority vote of your city.

Being required to be in a union is being required to financially contribute to the Democratic Party and Democratic politicians.

First off no one can require you to vote a certain way, or even vote at all. Telling you that as a requirement to own privtate land by a public authority you must vote a certain way, is not legal. I know many union members that are republicans, its their business not mine or the union's.
If you live in a association you pay association fees. They do things like maintaining the private roads the association owns, snow removal, lawn care, or anything else you agreed to when you assigned the agreement to live in the association. They can't tell you to be republican or vote republican, but they can keep you from posting signs not approved by the association in your yard. If you live in a conservative neighborhood I bet the association donates some of you association fees to republican candidates.

You can personally make financial donations to the Republican Party and still be in the union, and not all of the union dues go to political action. If your employer makes donations to the Democratic Party do you get this upset? The union does not, and can not require you personally to give any money to any political party.

Your comparison of being in a union to owning private land is terrible. Its like saying an apple is spherical and relatively small, and Pluto is spherical and relatively small. So they are almost the same thing, right?
 
Did I say the U.S. has a free market? No, we have a mixed economy.

Did I say I support bailouts and protectionism? I didn't, and I don't.

It's mixed alright

A mixture of totalitarian corporate fascism and private tyranny
 
Seems like those top 400 on $144,000 per hour are pricing everyone out of the market don't you think mr cpwill?

no in fact what you describe is impossible. In order to be "priced out of the market" in the manner under discussion, the market floor has to be above your ceiling.

So mr cpwill is appalled at the greed of those working on the minimum wage rate of $7.15 per hour who are clearly responsible for the obscene levels of poverty in the USA.

not at all. I am saddened that we enact policies such as the minimum wage which are designed to harm the poorest of the poor. the real minimum wage is 'zero', as in, not employable.

I wonder if mr cpwill can survive on $7.15 per hour - oops sorry, much less than the greedy $7.15 per hour?

:shrug: i've been there. I've been laid off - been broke. spent an entire week once subsisting off 2/3rds of a single loaf of bread and tapwater. when my family was young, we rated food stamps (didn't take them), I've broken out the coin jar at the end of the month to add up enough to buy milk for the baby and some potatoes for us. I'm not really sure what that is supposed to prove, but :shrug:...
 
no in fact what you describe is impossible. In order to be "priced out of the market" in the manner under discussion, the market floor has to be above your ceiling.

I see mr cpwill, so if 95% of a nation's wealth is concentrated into the hands of the top 1 or 2% of citizens, NOBODY will be priced out of any job market.

Interesting economic theory you have there mr cpwill

I assume that the obscene level of poverty in the USA has nothing to do whatsoever with the inequitable distribtion of wealth and access to everyday resources such as basic health care and education etc?

Can you describe to me a JOB whereby ONE person works for 1 hour and requires $144,000 renumeration for that hour?

What sort of JOB are they doing that is so critical and embeded in rare skills that they require this much compensation?

Even Astronauts dont make that much mr cpwill, and they may not make it back to earth safely.

How much pressure is a US president under for example? How much responsibilty does he or she have? And yet their annual salary is less than $500,000 right?
 
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no in fact what you describe is impossible. In order to be "priced out of the market" in the manner under discussion, the market floor has to be above your ceiling.
Tell me this, if we are in a global recession and so many countries are in debt. Where has all the money gone? If 1% of the population has 95% of the money, how is this good for the economy? The economy works by some one working to earn income, they use their income to purchase goods that they need or want. The money you spent goes to pay people who work at the store you bought it from, so they can go buy things they want and need. The store you bought your goods from buy the goods from the manufacturer, who uses their income to pay their employees so they can buy things they want and need. The key is that money needs to be spent. So what happens when so few people have money to spend? Essentially if the richest 1% don't spend a proportional amount money on goods they are effectively ruining the economy.

not at all. I am saddened that we enact policies such as the minimum wage which are designed to harm the poorest of the poor. the real minimum wage is 'zero', as in, not employable.
Please explain how a minimum wage hurts the poor.
Do you know what a wage is? Wage definition from Wage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis —often used in plural If some one is unemployable they would not receive a wage. You need to do work to get compensation, you also need to receive compensation to do work.

Just to put a comparison using the previous figures to minimum wage:
7.15/hr at 40 hours/ per week for 52 weeks = $14,872/year
7.15 per hour is .004965% of $144,000 per hour. Cut a penny in to 5000 pieces for every penny the 1% makes a minimum wage earner get one piece.
You could roughly pay 20140 people minimum wage for what the 1% makes

Again how is the minimum wage hurting the poor?

:shrug: i've been there. I've been laid off - been broke. spent an entire week once subsisting off 2/3rds of a single loaf of bread and tapwater. when my family was young, we rated food stamps (didn't take them), I've broken out the coin jar at the end of the month to add up enough to buy milk for the baby and some potatoes for us. I'm not really sure what that is supposed to prove, but :shrug:...
The point you made is that your pride is more important then your desire to provide for your family. How long were you laid off? Did you have money saved? What would of happened if you were not able to buy more food when your bread was gone? What if you only had enough change to buy the milk or the potatoes not both, would you go hungry or the baby? What if your baby became ill and need attention at a hospital?

My point is this, not being able to foresee the future, what would it take before you needed to swallow your pride and say you need help?
 
Tell me this, if we are in a global recession and so many countries are in debt. Where has all the money gone? If 1% of the population has 95% of the money, how is this good for the economy? The economy works by some one working to earn income, they use their income to purchase goods that they need or want. The money you spent goes to pay people who work at the store you bought it from, so they can go buy things they want and need. The store you bought your goods from buy the goods from the manufacturer, who uses their income to pay their employees so they can buy things they want and need. The key is that money needs to be spent. So what happens when so few people have money to spend? Essentially if the richest 1% don't spend a proportional amount money on goods they are effectively ruining the economy.


Please explain how a minimum wage hurts the poor.
Do you know what a wage is? Wage definition from Wage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis —often used in plural If some one is unemployable they would not receive a wage. You need to do work to get compensation, you also need to receive compensation to do work.

Just to put a comparison using the previous figures to minimum wage:
7.15/hr at 40 hours/ per week for 52 weeks = $14,872/year
7.15 per hour is .004965% of $144,000 per hour. Cut a penny in to 5000 pieces for every penny the 1% makes a minimum wage earner get one piece.
You could roughly pay 20140 people minimum wage for what the 1% makes

Again how is the minimum wage hurting the poor?


The point you made is that your pride is more important then your desire to provide for your family. How long were you laid off? Did you have money saved? What would of happened if you were not able to buy more food when your bread was gone? What if you only had enough change to buy the milk or the potatoes not both, would you go hungry or the baby? What if your baby became ill and need attention at a hospital?

My point is this, not being able to foresee the future, what would it take before you needed to swallow your pride and say you need help?

Mr.Sliver That is why there are charitable institions such as all of the local and national churches, synagogs and mosques and temples. I've been in his shoes. If I needed help I would go to my family before I would ever go to government. In my state I govenment wouldnt help me anyhow because of the color of my skin, apprantly its government policy to discrimnate against certain ethinicities because they are, how did they put it? "Advantaged." The chuches usually know whos hurting and will often help before even being asked.


What business is it of yours what someone else makes?

You ever stop to think that all the government debt might be put to better use? 16 trillion dollors is currently off the lending market because the government has sucked it up. 16 trillion goes a loooooooooooooonnnnnnngggggggg way.
 
Tell me this, if we are in a global recession and so many countries are in debt. Where has all the money gone?

Well, it got spent, mostly over time on transfer payments, and mostly in bursts on ill-fated attempts to create economic growth through repeated exercises in the Broken Window Fallacy.

If 1% of the population has 95% of the money, how is this good for the economy?

Well, they don't. 95% of the M1 money supply is not held by 1% of the populace. But I think you are asking about the percentage of wealth held by the wealthy. In which case I would say that relative distribution is much less important than measures like median income. When you look at the wealth of the 1%, you find that it is overwhelmingly in non-cash capital.

The economy works by some one working to earn income, they use their income to purchase goods that they need or want.

That is correct - the economy works through production, which increases supply and, as a derivative, demand.

The money you spent goes to pay people who work at the store you bought it from, so they can go buy things they want and need. The store you bought your goods from buy the goods from the manufacturer, who uses their income to pay their employees so they can buy things they want and need. The key is that money needs to be spent.

....no. Demand is a derivative of supply. The key is that wealth needs to be produced. Only when you have surplus can it be traded.

So what happens when so few people have money to spend? Essentially if the richest 1% don't spend a proportional amount money on goods they are effectively ruining the economy.

Um. No. It is virtually impossible for someone to store a large amount of wealth so that it is not economically active - the question simply being the extent to which they have stored it in a productive venue. Treasury Bonds < Venture Capital, for example, but both represent ways of taking cash from investors and putting it to work in the economy.

Please explain how a minimum wage hurts the poor.

The minimum wage creates an artificial price floor on labor. The problem being that the price floor is not the minimum wage, but rather the minimum wage plus taxes plus the regulatory burden that employers face for each individual employee. According to the Small Business Association, small businesses face a regulatory burden of a little less than $11,000 per employee as of 2008, and a bit more now. For someone working 50 weeks a year at 40 hours a week, that comes out to an additional $5.50 per hour. Then you add in the employer side of payroll taxes (7.65%), and what you see is that the minimum cost of an employee for an employer is not the minimum wage of $7.50 an hour, but rather $13.58 an hour.

However, employers cannot afford to hire employees at a loss. Doing so would drive them out of business and result in no jobs. This means that unless your labor is worth $13.59 an hour, you are structurally unemployable. When we talk about our most vulnerable population, we are talking about people with very few employable skills. Your high school drop out who is functionally illiterate who has no work history, no developed set of good work habits, and has no particularly valuable skill sets is unlikely to clear that threshold. That's why we see such incredible unemployment numbers among young urban males.

Think of advancement as a ladder. You build skills and experience over the course of your career, moving your way up the ladder. The minimum wage functions to raise the bottom rung, making it harder for the poorest of our populace to ever hop on and begin climbing. So, instead they are pushed out of the legitimate workforce, leaving the illegitimate workforce the only path of employment open to them.

At this point it should probably be noted that keeping the underclass unemployed was the original point of the minimum wage. It's not like the sudden discovery that price floors have a negative effect on those whose good or product is not worth more than the floor is new. The minimum wage was introduced in order to defend Decent White Folks who were trying to raise Decent White Families in Decent White Conditions... but who were being undercut by "Negros and mongrelized asian hordes." Sidney Webb (British Socialist) argued that "[o]f all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites, the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners". Edward Alsworth Ross (American Progressive) pointed out that since inferior races were content to live closer to a filthy state of nature than the Nordic man, they did not require a civilized wage. "The Coolie cannot outdo the American, but he can underlive him" was the problem, and the answer was to enact a civilized minimum wage that would put said savages out of wage competition. In a similar vein, the authors of the Davis-Bacon Act were quite open about the fact that the intent was to keep cheap black laborers from "taking" jobs from whites.

Now, the language has shifted, and the minimum wage is presented as a means of wealth-redistribution. the argument goes that any employer can afford to pay any worker minimum wage (plus taxes, plus the regulatory burden), and so they should be forced to do so, in order to make sure that the worker is getting enough resources from the employer. Unfortunately, this is in direct contradiction to historical reality - the originators of the minimum wage had a sounder grasp of economics than its' modern defenders. In practice, many workers today are not worth the minimum wage plus the cost of taxation plus the additional regulatory burden. It's a small percentage of the total workforce, but it is a significant section of our poorest portion of the workforce. If you are part of the community that is young, urban, poor, black, and dropped out of high school because doing drugs or having a baby sounded like more fun at the time, then you face the harsh reality that under our current regime, you may be structurally unemployable. Oh, given some experience, some job skills, etc. you could become employable; but thanks to the higher cost whose threshold you cannot cross, you will never get that experience.

Meanwhile, demand goes on, and the guys in the neighborhood a block over are all working 10-12 hours a day. Because they don't fall under minimum wage or regulatory laws - because they are illegals immigrants.

And so they are partly right, who defend the minimum wage today. Minimum wage laws today absolutely serve as a wealth redistributor. They take wealth and jobs from our poor, and give it to illegals, just as once they took them from our blacks to give to our whites.


:) Hope that helps.


The point you made is that your pride is more important then your desire to provide for your family.

nah. If I couldn't get work and the option was that my children go hungry, I would accept help at that point, though I would be more likely to reach out to family.

How long were you laid off?

about.... two and a halfish months.

Did you have money saved?

:lol: not enough as it turned out. The experience drove home the critical importance of having an emergency fund of 3-6 months of living expenses, and I have never gone without one since.

What would of happened if you were not able to buy more food when your bread was gone?

Well that did happen - and the answer was that I moved back in with my parents and until I could ship out to the Marine Corps.

What if you only had enough change to buy the milk or the potatoes not both, would you go hungry or the baby?

I would - no parent worthy of the name really would give any other answer.

What if your baby became ill and need attention at a hospital?

then I would have gone to the hospital?

My point is this, not being able to foresee the future, what would it take before you needed to swallow your pride and say you need help?

It would take true, actual need. Not merely the ability to get it.
 
then I would have gone to the hospital?



It would take true, actual need. Not merely the ability to get it.

Looks like Silver has you caught in your own corner punching at thin air

Hi Ho Silver

lone_l.webp
 
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Mr.Sliver That is why there are charitable institions such as all of the local and national churches, synagogs and mosques and temples. I've been in his shoes. If I needed help I would go to my family before I would ever go to government. In my state I govenment wouldnt help me anyhow because of the color of my skin, apprantly its government policy to discrimnate against certain ethinicities because they are, how did they put it? "Advantaged." The chuches usually know whos hurting and will often help before even being asked.


What business is it of yours what someone else makes?

You ever stop to think that all the government debt might be put to better use? 16 trillion dollors is currently off the lending market because the government has sucked it up. 16 trillion goes a loooooooooooooonnnnnnngggggggg way.

Charitable institution like churches are great, except many churches are no longer getting contributions like they used to. I personally am not a religious person. Churches would not be able to hold the financial burden to help people if there was not a public assistance.

I've been in his shoes before too, more then once. It's great that you can go to your family for help. At the time i needed help other people in my family were going through issues too. It would have been much easier to ask a family member once, but there is a limit to how much they can give you too.

The fact that you claim you were discriminated against because your "ethnicity" makes me think you didn't even try. If you did try, and they said you were an "advantaged ethnicity," you should of got that explanation in writing and found a civil rights lawyer to sue the state. Although, you do need to make sure you meet the income requirements, so if you have a spouse they could make too much money for you to qualify.

The church is not all-knowing, they only know someone needs help if they are told about it, same as the government just with less paperwork. As i said before they do not have the financial means to assist all the people that need it if the government were not involved. The first time i needed help, i was looked down on by the church because I was not married to the mother of my children. I'm sure many church won't help people who are not one of there followers or someone who is openly gay.

To tie this back to the main topic, unions actually have assistance for their members who have a financial hardship, even if they are working and still need assistance. You don't need to fill out a long application and sit in a waiting room for an hour to apply, and you don't have to receive a biblical lecture from anyone.


What business is it of mine? When our economy is in a recession, but some CEO decided he should get a bonus because he saved the company money by laying off employees. Or the CEO's that took a bonus from bailout money. What about many workers taking pay cuts, being told they should do more with less, while CEOs get raises and bonuses? Greed is what will run this country. The top needs to find a way to disperse its wealth. This is why unions were created. The people who actually DO the work, that creates revenue, shouldn't they earn a wage that they can live on. Shouldn't they be able to have time off to see their family, and take vacations.
Companies like GM were going under because of mismanagement and a huge salary for that management, not because of the assembly line worker that made $25/hr. By moving manufacturing jobs overseas, since they could no longer exploit employees here, they hurt the economy even further.

Have you ever stopped to think that the government did not ruin the economy, corporate greed did? Had corporations not decided to outsource all the manufacturing, many people would still have their jobs a livable income, and be able to contribute to society.

Where did the debt come from? Not all of that debt is tied to public assistance.
 
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