Religious Support to an Argument

[ngdawg]

*So its impossible to come into the presence of God through religion.... only possible through Jesus.
*Any morals atheists have, are self-imposed and can be judged only by how efficient and practical they are. To them there is no objective ethical right and wrong.
*If you hold to a God belief you have absolutes, God sets them. If you don’t, then you make things up as you go along...... to each his own.
Then....whats wrong with sleepin with the boss? sleeping with your friends husband? stealing from the office? leaving work early and lying about it?
Nothing in the secular humanists eyes. How would you know?
These are some of the most pompous, self-righteous and judgemental remarks I've seen here for a very long time. And, ooooh, looky here, they came from a 'Christian':roll:

Take Sweden for example. ANY public opposition to homosexuality results in fines and prison time. Any. Oh and this also includes opposition from the church. They have taken liberty, perverted it into license, and then made it so that objection to that which is wrong is illegal.

Sweden doesn't have to live by our Constitution, first off and if you wish to speak openly against homosexuality, go ahead-you're not in Sweden. But who are you to call homosexuality wrong? If it's wrong for you, fine. It's certainly right for those who are.
Why is it that the loudest proponent here for Jesus has the most judgemental
comments in every forum they enter?

 

[justone]

Certainly, when you ask for something you cannot achieve through real means to a parrenial diety, you're asking for his interferance with reality so that said diety may supply you with that which you have not earned.

The catch is: 1.Ask and you shall receive. 2. Be careful what you are asking for, because you may receive it.
Asking does not mean making a list of requests, but it is more like inquiring what do you really want. He does not negotiate with you (your faith in exchange for his presents). He supplies you only with what you have earned; and there no appeal. You may be hitting your forehead at the floor asking to heal your brother, but when you come home you may find that you have won Powerball., - your inquire has been answered. Then you go and hang yourself. He sees what you are really asking for. You ability to sing and talk smoothly are very secondary symbols and they are the least important, the least meaningful way to communicate. He is the only real mirror you can look at yourself. All other mirrors cannot avoid lying. You can prefer not to look at yourself. Or you can rely on your view of yourself.

I work for what I have, I need not ask an imaginable friend.

You do not have anything. You can have only things which can never be taken from you away. It is your free will to have such things or not to have. But be aware, if you ever get a grip on such things you have no way of return.

The only absolute I preach is reason.

Thus you may have to look for the absolute reason, because your reason is as week as mine.

No I do not, that is your assertion, I live by reason, facts and observations.

It would be fine if you were a computer. There is no faith in math. But math is just a single part of the whole life, it is just an entertainment. It would be fine, if logic and reason could always lead you to a final solution all the time. It would be fine, if you could include reasons, which are not known to you. It would be fine, if things ever happened exactly as you planned. The observations show they never happen in such way – something is always different, and sometimes it is very different.
At some point you have give things to a particular faith consisting, at least, of the faith , that you have counted all reasons, logic and observations, - you have done the best you could, – and now all you can do is to watch what is going to happen… helpless. Try reasons, facts and observations on your girlfriend – you would not be the first one to fail. You can keep on repeating your failures.

I live by reason, facts and observations.

It would be fine, if religion was not an observable fact, if the differences of religions were not a fact, if each of the religions did not have reasons, - if you could convince yourself that you can live with no interest in religion as a part of life and world around you.
It is fine, - just try not to talk about it with your girlfriend… like you would not start talking about non Euclid geometry.. I grew up fine as an atheist, but I turned to be very curious about life around me, once I stepped off my path for a second, and Christians caught me, biting me the Bible.

I am incapable of strong beliefs in that which I have no proof of.

I am afraid, I am incapable, too. It would be very strange, for instance, to believe suddenly that there is somebody in the sky who flies back and forth and does whatever he or it wants; it would be very childish, at least, - and it would only lead you to a great disappointment in yourself, as you grow up.
It is not my faith in imaginary things, but I my whole comprehension of life which shows me God; and I have not seen a single rational which would make me seriously doubt my comprehension. (It is too late now, whatever can be a new rational I would be reluctant to doubt things which have been working for me for years).
1.My comprehension consists of too much of experience, reasons, facts, logic, feelings and everything, who I am . (The assumption is made that I am neither a computer nor an animal - in spite of common view).
2. I have no other way to comprehend and live my life, but through myself. I have no idols, I don’t have to worship anybody’s view, I don’t have to agree with anybody, not even with Einstein ( I mean my life, not physics). It is my life.
I just see things and feel things and they are undeniable in existence for me on one hand, and on other hand I do not see logic or reason or observations which would make me seriously doubt them. I am pressed from both sides. Who in right mind would believe that Christ came back after His death, if He did not? (The assumption is made that humans generally are not insane – contrarily to common view).
Unless you check things with your understanding and comprehension of the world around you there is no possible way for your to believe = to come to a certain faith. My own comprehension and awareness of it are my only valuable proof for myself. It is my life. Doughgirl always tries to reason – what ‘’’faith’’’ of hers are you talking about?. Faith is the last result of the process which starts from comprehension, and comprehension starts from experience, from trial, touching with your fingers. You may choose to you’re your life following popular believes that we are animals, computers , that faith does not come from logic and reasoning, that somebody believes that there is something flying in the sky and doing magic tricks if you ask politely positioning your hands a certain way. Or you may choose to inquire reality of life, - and see things. Faith is not blind, - it takes shores off your eyes. One can be convinced by logic and reasons; and you are right, - my fellow Christians are the most difficult ones to be convinced by logic and reasons, – they have to see, to touch, to feel, to experience.
I take no word.

Why cant you leave me to my heresy? Live and let live...

I don’t know … do you really want to? To live your own life?

"If Copernicus had any genuine fear of publication, it was the reaction of scientists, not clerics, that worried him. Other churchmen before him — Nicole Oresme (a French bishop) in the fourteenth century and Nicolaus Cusanus (a German cardinal) in the fifteenth — had freely discussed the possible motion of the earth, and there was no reason to suppose that the reappearance of this idea in the sixteenth century would cause a religious stir."

 

[doughgirl]

Lachean said, “He did, and he was held responsible for his trespasses. What is your point?”

Why should he have been held responsible? There are many who think what he did was acceptable. If there is no absolute morality and we can do whatever we want because there is no right or wrong……then who is to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong to even hold them responsible?

“The only absolute I preach is reason. If you need proof that the sun exists... wow...”

“Reason”…….As I gave earlier Hitler reasoned……..and look what happened.

“No I do not, that is your assertion, I live by reason, facts and observations. I despise faith.”

We take, upon faith, many things.

Have you ever been married?
Ever had an operation?
Ever flown on an airplane?
Ever been on a roller coaster?
Ever put money in the bank?
Ever invested in anything?
Ever applied for a job?

It takes faith to participate in all of these.
And you are fooling yourself if you think you do not place your faith in others.

“Me and you have gone back and fourth before, and I know you insist that everyone has faith. I disagree, because I have no use for faith,”

You might not have any use for it, but you use it……..you can’t help it.


Every item of faith involves weighing evidences, because nothing really can be proved.

Take relativity…it was once a theory based on certain evidences which now have been proved to be fact. But at one time it was a theory. The scientists had faith that one day, their theory would be proven.
Take evolution… it is still a theory. Scientists who believe it, have faith that the evidences they see will eventually prove their theory correct. They have faith in the evidences that they have found.

When you tell me that I am unreasonable for not following your line of logic you are saying that your belief and faith (in reason) is right and mine is wrong.
Really what we have here is intolerance for others beliefs based on faith.

“I do not live by faith, but im sure you'll insist that it is faith that I have in logic. There is no way for me to explain to you how ridiculous that is, you didn’t get it the last 14 times.”

Start here……….http://salesstar.com/mm071502.htm





And hopefully YOU WILL GET IT this time.

You live by faith even if you only have faith in yourself.….:2razz:

Faith is a good thing.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

The catch is: 1.Ask and you shall receive. 2. Be careful what you are asking for, because you may receive it.
Asking does not mean making a list of requests, but it is more like inquiring what do you really want. He does not negotiate with you (your faith in exchange for his presents). He supplies you only with what you have earned; and there no appeal. You may be hitting your forehead at the floor asking to heal your brother, but when you come home you may find that you have won Powerball., - your inquire has been answered. Then you go and hang yourself. He sees what you are really asking for. You ability to sing and talk smoothly are very secondary symbols and they are the least important, the least meaningful way to communicate. He is the only real mirror you can look at yourself. All other mirrors cannot avoid lying. You can prefer not to look at yourself. Or you can rely on your view of yourself.

If that is the true nature of god, again we have no disagreement.

You do not have anything. You can have only things which can never be taken from you away. It is your free will to have such things or not to have. But be aware, if you ever get a grip on such things you have no way of return.

I have plenty, and I will defend what I have from those who would take it away.

Thus you may have to look for the absolute reason, because your reason is as week as mine.

I was commenting on my capacity to reason. My reasons may or may not be as strong as yours.

It would be fine if you were a computer. There is no faith in math. But math is just a single part of the whole life, it is just an entertainment. It would be fine, if logic and reason could always lead you to a final solution all the time.

I'm an accountant, I am a computer. I know that im human and thus quite capable of logical fallacies or errors in matters of fact, thats why i consider debate to be so important. I learn from being proven wrong.

It would be fine, if religion was not an observable fact, if the differences of religions were not a fact, if each of the religions did not have reasons, - if you could convince yourself that you can live with no interest in religion as a part of life and world around you.

I can live that way. But believe me when I say I would love to have the luxury of being a man of faith.

I don’t know … do you really want to? To live your own life?

I dont know how else to live.

 

[Thinker]

We take, upon faith, many things.

Have you ever been married?
Ever had an operation?
Ever flown on an airplane?
Ever been on a roller coaster?
Ever put money in the bank?
Ever invested in anything?
Ever applied for a job?

It takes faith to participate in all of these.

Your use of the word "faith" in this and previous posts indicates you mean it
in the sense of "belief without evidence". If this is not so, please supply the
definition you are using.

Given this, not one of those things requires faith, unless one is a fool, of course.

Marriage: Most people decide on marriage after getting to know the
prospective partner for a reasonable time. That is evidence that suggests
future behaviour.

Operations: There are bodies that observe and regulate surgeons who need
appropriate qualifications and experience before they are let loose on
patients. Survival rates for operations can be examined. That is evidence.

Planes: Pilots have to go through extensive training and testing before they
are allowed to fly a plane. Air crashes are rare. That is evidence.

Roller coaster: These things have to be licensed. There are inspectors trained
to check for problems. Roller coaster accidents are quite rare. That is
evidence.

Banks: There is a huge amount of regulation concerning banks. Banks rarely
steal people's money (although that could be a matter of interpretation).
That is evidence.

Investing: Some people do use faith to determine their investments; they are
the ones who usually lost their money.. Those who are successful base their
investments on experience and observation. That is evidence.

Jobs: There are laws governing job descriptions. Reasonable people investiage
the prospective employer before taking a job and obtain evidence.

All of these things are based on evidence: past performance, legal regulation,
observation,...

 

[doughgirl]

“Sweden doesn't have to live by our Constitution, first off and if you wish to speak openly against homosexuality, go ahead-you're not in Sweden. But who are you to call homosexuality wrong? If it's wrong for you, fine. It's certainly right for those who are.
Why is it that the loudest proponent here for Jesus has the most judgemental
comments in every forum they enter?”

I pointed out Sweden because in Sweden there is no free speech anymore. I did not say that we live by their Constitution did I? I used them as an example of what I think eventually will happen here in America.
But you are so quick to pounce at every opportunity.

I can call homosexuality wrong if I so choose, can’t I? If you say I can’t, then please explain why. Are you saying I have to tolerate your views about homosexuality………..but you don’t have to tolerate mine? You are right and I am wrong.

Why ngdawg,
who then is being judgmental? You are judging me, something you so quickly say I am not suppose to do to anyone else.


I verbally stand by what I think scriptures say about homosexuality. I believe all scripture is God-breathed and therefore God makes it clear what is sin and what is not.
I have that right don't I ngdawg? Or are you against free speech? Whether you agree with me or not........I am afforded that right, as you also have the right to disagree with me.


You say I am so judgmental. I find it highly ironic that everything I post, no matter what the subject happens to be......you are the first one who jumps in. Why? Of couse.... to judge me. :rofl

Hmmmmm

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Why should he have been held responsible? There are many who think what he did was acceptable. If there is no absolute morality and we can do whatever we want because there is no right or wrong……then who is to tell anyone what they are doing is wrong to even hold them responsible?

Because that is the way that the world works, when you commit trespasses againt other men, they will hold you accountable.

It takes faith to participate in all of these.And you are fooling yourself if you think you do not place your faith in others.

I disagree with most of those, when it comes to investing/banks/jobs there are many objective facts to base your decision on.

When it comes to the unknown like rollercoasters, I operate under the assumption that if the operational employees have done their job, they should be held accountable for any errors in service delivery.

I base my decisions when it comes to others on their previous actions and what I know about them. No faith is involved in a strengths/weakenesses assessment.

You might not have any use for it, but you use it……..you can’t help it.

That is your assertion, and it doesnt hold true to me.

Every item of faith involves weighing evidences, because nothing really can be proved.

Nothing can be proved? Are you a nihilist or something?

Take relativity…it was once a theory based on certain evidences which now have been proved to be fact. But at one time it was a theory. The scientists had faith that one day, their theory would be proven.

You mean Einstein? First of all you are misusing the word "theory" from a scientific point of view. It doesnt mean guess, and science is peer reviewed.

Take evolution… it is still a theory. Scientists who believe it, have faith that the evidences they see will eventually prove their theory correct. They have faith in the evidences that they have found.

THEORY DOES NOT MEAN GUESS. When a scientist says "scientific theory" it means based on measurable observations. There is no faith required EVIDENCE.

When you tell me that I am unreasonable for not following your line of logic you are saying that your belief and faith (in reason) is right and mine is wrong.

Really what we have here is intolerance for others beliefs based on faith.

I never said it was unreasonable for you to not follow my logic. I said that your own was. I am however intolerant of faith/beliefs, when it comes to debate. I am a skeptic and I demand to be proven wrong before I change my mind.

And hopefully YOU WILL GET IT this time. You live by faith even if you only have faith in yourself.….

It wasnt me who I said doesnt "get it". I have reason to trust my logic. I dont have faith in myself, I am realistic about myself.

Faith is a good thing.

That has yet to be proven, how so?

Why is it so important to you for me to have a religion or to live by faith? What is so wrong about living by reason based on measurable observations on reality?

I verbally stand by what I think scriptures say about homosexuality. I believe all scripture is God-breathed and therefore God makes it clear what is sin and what is not.

So do you take leviticus literally as the word of god, and thus must be true?

 

[justone]

If that is the true nature of god, again we have no disagreement.

According to Bleu Pascal you are conceding to my point (God). Please rethink your answer to make it denying God, or proving this is not the true nature of God.

I have plenty, and I will defend what I have from those who would take it away.

You hope and/or ability to defend never was doubted. The statement was
1. All you have as the result of your labor can be easily taken away from you at any moment – so you do not have it; You real possession is the one which can never be taken from you away.
2. You property will be taken from you away when you die at unplanned by you the sircumstances which were not planned by you. You have nothing, even if you successfully defend your possessions and multiply them.
3. Meanwhile you can enjoy you silly toys. I am myself working on a deal on 2 acres of land. God knows whether I really need it now.

I'm an accountant, I am a computer.
Good for you, Mr. Computer, seen by me as DELL XPS. Cannot find anything about accounting in the Bible – you are all on your own here. May be it is there – I just never looked for it.

I was commenting on my capacity to reason. My reasons may or may not be as strong as yours.I know that im human and thus quite capable of logical fallacies or errors in matters of fact, thats why i consider debate to be so important. I learn from being proven wrong.

Proving you wrong does not automatically make my logic right. Two wrongs don’t do even a half right. Common, brother, you are full of logical fallacies or errors and I am full of logical fallacies or errors, - by your own definition I agree with. That’s why I suggested some absolute reason to lean on… You don’t really think I would be capable to help you to establish some other truth rather than one which has been given to me trough the Bible. Plato, Socrates, Darwin, Marx, Freud, Young, Einstein, Hitler, Robespierre, Nietzsche …… - go to them if you want find a way to avoid leaning on ‘’’ old ancient fair tales’’ as the absolute reason. I am not one of them, I am justone, I don’t play too far away from my fence, - never discovered anything new under the sun, it is all the same behind the hill…
“” Is there anything of which one can say , “”Look! This is something new’’?

I can live that way. But believe me when I say I would love to have the luxury of being a man of faith.

It is quite a lament. Caught me off guard… All I have is God…. No leather seats.. Luxury?.. Of reading the Bible?.. Duty of a man?... Honesty and dignity of an attempt to do right things in life..? Christ is my saviour from myself.. I have to think what to say… Have nothing in my head at this moment... I hope, I understand you… but I need time..

 

[doughgirl]

“I disagree with most of those, when it comes to investing/banks/jobs there are many objective facts to base your decision on.”

You still put your faith in a bank, you still have faith in a spouses word….you have faith in doctors……etc.

“When it comes to the unknown like rollercoasters, I operate under the assumption that if the operational employees have done their job, they should be held accountable for any errors in service delivery.”

Yes you do........you put your trust and faith in them.

Under the assumption?…….right, you can’t prove that that roller coaster is perfectly safe……..you put your faith in the operators, the mechanics, the Park the coaster is at that they have done their jobs to the best of their abilities.


IMO you are in denial about faith period, because in your estimation anyone with faith in anything is weak. And you do not want to project that image.

Did you visit the website I gave you?

 

[::Major_Baker::]

[FONT=Verdana
[QUOTE=doughgirl]
[FONT=Verdana

Must you change all of the fonts and colors to make it so hard to quote you?

[QUOTE]
You still put your faith in a bank, you still have faith in a spouses word….you have faith in doctors……etc.

A different kind of 'faith.'

All of which can be held to account--the bak if it fails to protect your money, the husband if he fails to remain faithful, and the doctor if he does malpractice.

What can god be held to account for? He can't even be truly contacted, except by delusional types.

 

[ngdawg]

I pointed out Sweden because in Sweden there is no free speech anymore. I did not say that we live by their Constitution did I? I used them as an example of what I think eventually will happen here in America.

We're aren't IN Sweden though and we have our own laws. It's a very moot point, really. With our Constitution and democracy, even with all its faults, the basis of freedoms won't change.

But you are so quick to pounce at every opportunity.

Nah, I've let you slide for a while because everyone else is so good at picking on you and it's not really that important to me. Wanna point out all my firsts? Didn't think so....:mrgreen:

I can call homosexuality wrong if I so choose, can’t I? If you say I can’t, then please explain why. Are you saying I have to tolerate your views about homosexuality………..but you don’t have to tolerate mine? You are right and I am wrong.

You're finally getting it...actually there is a difference betweening comment and declaration. You just haven't learned that yet. See, I believe you're nuts.
But I haven't CALLED you nuts because, well, that would be very very wrong to do so.

Why ngdawg, who then is being judgmental? You are judging me, something you so quickly say I am not suppose to do to anyone else.

The views held by more than a few are strikingly similar. If you want to be a religious zealot or 'christian' as you refer to it, fine....but.....when you throw it at others as THE only way to be, then you're gonna be judged. I accept everyone has a different belief system-I couldnt care less what they are. But don't make me eat asparagus and make like it's a cookie....it'll just get spit right back. Comprende? And the only ones who are making moral judgments are those that call themselves 'christians' which is just SO ironic... I couldn't care less if you stand on street corners trading sex for dimes...but don't sit on some self-built throne calling anyone who doesn't think your narrowminded way as 'immoral'. That is not your call to make. There are Jews, Muslims, Pagans and atheists who are just as moral, moreso , than you. To sit on your throne and pronounce that they arent' is not only ignorant and pompous, it's pure bigotry, something that your own book that you claim to follow denounces. And how hypocritical is that??

I verbally stand by what I think scriptures say about homosexuality. I believe all scripture is God-breathed and therefore God makes it clear what is sin and what is not.

Yes, but you are one of the biggest 'sinners' here as you call anyone not like you 'wrong', 'immoral', 'sinners', 'godless', etc, etc. I find it simply mind-boggling that you pick and choose like that and then claim to follow scriptures...THAT is the judgement I speak of. Everything else here is pretty much unanimous...

I have that right don't I ngdawg? Or are you against free speech? Whether you agree with me or not........I am afforded that right, as you also have the right to disagree with me.ou say I am so judgmental. I find it highly ironic that everything I post, no matter what the subject happens to be......you are the first one who jumps in. Why? Of couse.... to judge me.

Like I asked, point out all my 'firsts' to jump in..you've been here, how many posts now? You really just are not as important to anyone here as you think you are, primarily because of your holier-than-thou postulating and constant preaching. You offer nothing in the way of factual debate...oh wait, there was that...no..I'm mistaken there...but, there WAS that time...no, that was someone else....But you go on with your bad self, blessyourheart....just don't play victim when comes back and bites you in the a$$..what's left of it

 

[doughgirl]

“Must you change all of the fonts and colors to make it so hard to quote you?”

They look fine on my screen. I have no clue what you are talking about.

“A different kind of 'faith.”

:rofl Ive heard it all now.

There are levels of faith? Categories?

“We're aren't IN Sweden though and we have our own laws. It's a very moot point, really. With our Constitution and democracy, even with all its faults, the basis of freedoms won't change.”

Never say never. Abortion was once illegal and today it is legal. Slavery was once legal and is now illegal. Sodomy was once illegal in Texas and is now legal.

Laws change. They change when society demands them to change.

and they are slowly changing in America.

Case…Peterson v. Hewlett-Packard Co; a Christian worker exercised his right to free speech in response to a homosexual poster the company had placed next to his cubicle. He posted Bible verses to express his beliefs. He was fired.

Court upholds Firing of Worker Who Opposed Gay Poster, finds Employer Did not Discriminate against Worker Based on His Religion,” The Employment Law authority, Ogletree Deakins February/March 2004, 8.

Air Force Officer Enoch Lawrence posted in his cubicle, a small sign that said “Jesus spoken Here”, several bible verses, and a bumber sticker that read “Marriage: One Man One Woman.”
A pagan pride Festival Poster was posted in the break room. That was allowed and his was not. And the bumper sticker reflects California and U.S Laws…..

The Criminalization Of Christianity, Janet Folger

Sandia National Laboratories, New Mexico allowed homosexuals to have events honoring “coming out day”…Christians asked to bring in speakers to discuss evolution and creation. Denied. Even after grudgingly recognizing the Christian group in settlement of a federal lawsuit, Sandia censored the Christians’ website by removing links to the Family Research Council and Exodus International- in the middle of “Gay Pride Month.,” which was widely advertised in Sandia's internal publications.

Julie Foster, “Christians Sue Lab for Discrimination: Accuse Sandia of Giving Special Rights To Gays, Denying Believers Equal Treatment,” World Net Daily, 2000.

No Bible verses, no signs, no articles, no pro-marriage bumper stickers, no links and no speakers. GET IT?

A lesbian approached two Christian doctors in San Diego County, to be artificially inseminated. The doctors refused based on religious beliefs. The lesbian however did not show tolerance, she sued. A California appeals court found the doctors at fault.
This lesbian’s lawyer Jennifer Pizer appeared on Hannity and Combs, she said, “When the doctor is in her church she can do religion, but NOT in the medical office.”

Sears and Osten, The Homosexual Agenda, p. 185

http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/cases/record?record=222

This is an elective procedure. The doctors have every right to refuse based on their religious views.

“Nah, I've let you slide for a while because everyone else is so good at picking on you and it's not really that important to me. Wanna point out all my firsts? Didn't think so....”

Well suggestion……..why don’t ya help Caine find the quote where he accuses me of calling steen a babykilling abortionist……Hes to busy, you know he has a job and cant take the time :rofl …………with all the posts he has, I find this very ironic don't you?

“See, I believe you're nuts.
But I haven't CALLED you nuts because, well, that would be very very wrong to do so”

Yea………I think ya just did. Do you think I care? You are the one good at namecalling. Practice makes perfect, don’t ya think? Nope wont stoop to your level.

And yes, of course it would be wrong……..you certainly wouldn’t want to judge me, right? You don’t do that………. You try so hard to be politically correct in everything its nauseating.

“Yes, but you are one of the biggest 'sinners' here as you call anyone not like you 'wrong', 'immoral', 'sinners', 'godless', etc, etc. I find it simply mind-boggling that you pick and choose like that and then claim to follow scriptures...THAT is the judgement I speak of. Everything else here is pretty much unanimous...”

Oh yes I am. I try to follow scriptures, unlike many who skip the verses on sin, so they don’t feel bad about themselves.

“You really just are not as important to anyone here as you think you are, primarily because of your holier-than-thou postulating and constant preaching.”

Constant preaching?

You call posting replies to questions in discussion forums preaching? I pretty much stay on topic and you know it.
I could care less as I have said hundreds of times if I irrate you.

Now go help your dear friend Caine find that quote !!!!!!!!

And about biting someone in the arse……..Caine comment did just that.

 

[tecoyah]

There are levels of faith? Categories?[/FONT][/COLOR]


Yes...there are many different levels of faith, Unless you actually think your faith is a mimick of the level held by the Pope? Or by myself?

Every single person of faith has a different "Level" of belief than every other person...this is simple reality. Just as every person has a different understanding of what this "God" entity is. To deny this obvious Human condition is rather self defeating, if you intend to make yourself respectable in debate.
Example: I personally like the King James version of the Bible. I once felt the Old Testament was my scriptural text of choice (and I still think its a better read). But, I was forced to redefine "God" based on the changes implemented in the King James version, Thus my faith in God was placed into a new "Level". Has My Faith Changed over time...absolutely. Is it on a different Level than it once was....Most Definately. Is my God the same one as yours....Nope.

Chances are My version of God, would find you rather annoying.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

You still put your faith in a bank, you still have faith in a spouses word….you have faith in doctors……etc.Did you visit the website I gave you?

No, I have REASONABLE ASSURANCE that the bank will not default on me, and that doctors will not commit malpractice. If they did I would hold them accountable, do you know the purpose of insurance?

I have no spouse, and lets not open that can of worms.

Under the assumption?…….right, you can’t prove that that roller coaster is perfectly safe……..you put your faith in the operators, the mechanics, the Park the coaster is at that they have done their jobs to the best of their abilities.

Reasonable assurance based on my observations and statistics on rollercoasters.

IMO you are in denial about faith period, because in your estimation anyone with faith in anything is weak. And you do not want to project that image.

Faith is the weakest form of reasoning because it is free of it, faith has no purpose in debate. I am not in denial of it, I simply do not depend on it.

Did you visit the website I gave you?

No, I saw no link, and I wont bother looking. I post from work and my time is precious. If you have something you want me to hear, say it.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

According to Bleu Pascal you are conceding to my point (God). Please rethink your answer to make it denying God, or proving this is not the true nature of God.

I dont pretend to know the nature of god. I have conceded nothing.

1. All you have as the result of your labor can be easily taken away from you at any moment – so you do not have it; You real possession is the one which can never be taken from you away.
2. You property will be taken from you away when you die at unplanned by you the sircumstances which were not planned by you. You have nothing, even if you successfully defend your possessions and multiply them.
3. Meanwhile you can enjoy you silly toys. I am myself working on a deal on 2 acres of land. God knows whether I really need it now.

Yes, I can die at any moment. That is what makes life beautiful, and should I die my material things would be the least of my worries.

I'm an accountant, I am a computer.
Good for you, Mr. Computer, seen by me as DELL XPS. Cannot find anything about accounting in the Bible – you are all on your own here. May be it is there – I just never looked for it.

That was mostly a joke, and a commentary on how my dependancy on logic and objectivity has made me cling to such a cut and dry profession. Who said anything about the Bible?

Proving you wrong does not automatically make my logic right. Two wrongs don’t do even a half right. Common, brother, you are full of logical fallacies or errors and I am full of logical fallacies or errors, - by your own definition I agree with.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I dont concede that I am wrong until I am proven wrong, and I adjust my opinions and knowledge accordingly unless in the future that point of view gets shot to pieces by someone even wiser. Its how I GROW.

That’s why I suggested some absolute reason to lean on… You don’t really think I would be capable to help you to establish some other truth rather than one which has been given to me trough the Bible. Plato, Socrates, Darwin, Marx, Freud, Young, Einstein, Hitler, Robespierre, Nietzsche …… - go to them if you want find a way to avoid leaning on ‘’’ old ancient fair tales’’ as the absolute reason.

I've read them, and i've only come across you on the path towards finding something new.

I am not one of them, I am justone, I don’t play too far away from my fence, - never discovered anything new under the sun, it is all the same behind the hill…

I think you highly underestimate yourself, surely you have some contribution to make. Everything you speak cannot be regurgitation.

“” Is there anything of which one can say , “”Look! This is something new’’?

Quite often, just not so frequently in philosophy or politics. Science though...

It is quite a lament. Caught me off guard… All I have is God…. No leather seats.. Luxury?.. Of reading the Bible?.. Duty of a man?... Honesty and dignity of an attempt to do right things in life..? Christ is my saviour from myself.. I have to think what to say… Have nothing in my head at this moment... I hope, I understand you… but I need time..

Ill be here...

 

[doughgirl]

Tecoyah said “Chances are My version of God, would find you rather annoying.”

So God is in the eyes of the beholder? You pick and choose Gods attributes/His essence?

There is only one version of the Christian God Tecoyah. And He is the same in every translation of the Bible.
God Never Changes and His Word will never change. His promises remain the same now and forever. We might change but He remains the same.

God is dependable, faithful, immutable.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever"

Mal. 3:6 – “For I the Lord do not change.”
James 1:17 – “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”
Heb 6:17-18 – “Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.”

The Bible says: "Happy is the man who makes the Lord his trust." (Psalms 40:4)

Why is he happy? Because God is in fact unchanging and because God is certain, He does not change, nor do His promises.

Read Hebrews. Pauls telling Christians to maintain their faith in Christ and to not to fall into believing new and strange doctrines about Him.

Gods word is the same in all translations.

“Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they don’t understand, but for me I have always noticed that the passages that bother me are those I do understand.”
Mark Twain

Lachean said, “Faith is the weakest form of reasoning because it is free of it, faith has no purpose in debate. I am not in denial of it, I simply do not depend on it.”

Call it weak call it whatever you want……..you still have faith in things, so do teachers, so do clergy, so do scientists etc…….everyone lives by faith.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

you still have faith in things, so do teachers, so do clergy, so do scientists etc…….everyone lives by faith.[/FONT][/COLOR]

You have yet to prove this assertion. You cited places where I had reasonable assurance based on observations and insurance. Everyone doesnt live by faith, but it definately sounds like you want them to.

By definition, how am I a person of faith? Please point out an area of my life, since you know me so well, that I have strong beliefs in anything that I have no reason for. You cannot, because that is not the way I live. I lost all my faith when I started to accumulate knowledge.

To the best of my knowledge, I havent made a decision based on faith in years.

 

[Thinker]

Call it weak call it whatever you want……..you still have faith in things, so do teachers, so do clergy, so do scientists etc…….everyone lives by faith.

You are at least persistent. I have asked you to define the meaning of "faith"
so that we can see exactly how you use the term. Then we can debate your
claim without fear of word play. You ignore that request.

You have done this often enough to make it clear that you have no wish to
debate anything. All you want to do is keep repeating your unsubstantiated
claims ad nauseam in the hope that someone will start to believe them.

 

[ngdawg]

You have done this often enough to make it clear that you have no wish to
debate anything. All you want to do is keep repeating your unsubstantiated
claims ad nauseam in the hope that someone will start to believe them.

Welcome to the club...:2wave: (the oulandish unspoken conclusions are my personal favorite)

 

[ngdawg]

So God is in the eyes of the beholder? You pick and choose Gods attributes/His essence?

Actually, everyone does. Note your own reply:

There is only one version of the Christian God Tecoyah. And He is the same in every translation of the Bible.

Where'd he say 'christian god'?

 

[::Major_Baker::]

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever"

Except when his sheeple determined that shellfish actually are pretty damn good...then his words had to change.

 

[Jerry]

Religious Support to an Argument

There is nothing fruitful in discussing the validity of the Bible or any religion with a person committed to accepting it! That by definition is the meaning and essence of religion versus science. A person who accepts something on faith can never be convinced differently because they have a very natural psychological need to have answers to the unanswerable and a promise of an afterlife. Who wouldn't want that security! It has been that way though out man's long history of religions farther back than human records can recount. Based on a deep psychological need it will likely always remain that way! Our religions evolve and adapt to meet the needs of man as he evolves and adapts, hence the obvious difference in God in the Old Testament and Jesus in The New Testament.

Only a small percentage of people can accept that a morality can exist by observation of the natural world around us and common sense. Only a small percentage of people can attempt to live a moral life without relying on answers related to an afterlife, fear of punishment and hope of reward.

So you need to at least realize that when you use religious belief for the proof of an argument, it is only proof to the true believer in your religion! It ends a thoughtful discussion with those who don't share your religion.

The actual differences between Judaism, Islam and Christianity are very minor, but more than enough to divide the true believers and have them kill each other in the name of God! The Bible suggests that God of the old testament would bomb anyone who disobeyed, but as the song asks, "Who would Jesus bomb?" Let's leave it at that!
__________________

Another pop-psy fan who doesn't know anything of the religions of which he speaks.
No big deal, there a dime a dozen.

 

[justone]

I dont pretend to know the nature of god. I have conceded nothing.

The meaning Blaise Pascal puts in it is – if your experiment with this particular side of God reveals your agreement and change of attitude, there is no reason for you to suspect that the next experiment will not bring the same result. Or on other hand if a point in your structure, built to hold, failed, we can say your structure failed (as not meeting the purpose.) …Though I should confess I should not have used Pascal because Pascal was a Christian fanatic. The international unit of pressure is Pascal… I think humanity should start working either on renaming the unit or changing PASCAL’s biography… OOPs… PASCAL language… Rename it. On other hand if I use Pascal you may use Nietzsche. What are we going to measure in Nietzsche units?

Yes, I can die at any moment. That is what makes life beautiful, and should I die my material things would be the least of my worries.

You are not answering the 2nd time. I made 3 points ; you reply to the last one with the suggestion that Life is beautiful. Yes it is, I know, drunk with every drop of it. I hope when you should die you would have no worries. I never doubted your agreement to die. The point is: You do not have anything. In the best case you can say you’ve borrowed what you have. How you can have anything in life when you know 100% you will have to return everything? It is not yours. After 3 attempts I am not returning to this subject – it is up to you what to conclude.

That was mostly a joke, and a commentary on how my dependancy on logic and objectivity has made me cling to such a cut and dry profession. Who said anything about the Bible?

That was mostly a joke. I did not have a problem with understanding connection between accounting and math, sorry, you call it logic.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I dont concede that I am wrong until I am proven wrong,

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Let me try to rephrase it. Your very subjective acceptance of the proof is based only on your logical fallacies and errors. If, as you’ve said, being a human you’re a subject to errors, your concession is possibly a human error. You would not concede because you would be wrong, you would concede because you would decide that you would be wrong. And your decision would have real flaws of logic. The only real proof can come from real life experiments. You will not concede until you try my words (logic) in your life, -- I have no clue about it. We’re spinning a lot of tails around my faith, which - as I’ve told you - is a result of my comprehension (experience) of my real life. I can try to tell, but I do not think I can prove, because I cannot wire my brain into yours and download almost everything. Since such situation always was commonly human, I suggested the absolute reason, when you said that your absolute was a reason. And other things I said.

and I adjust my opinions and knowledge accordingly unless in the future that point of view gets shot to pieces by someone even wiser. Its how I GROW.

You receive new information, compare with the old one, process it, store it, etc.. – doing intellectual work. Unfortunately I have to inform you that we all do the same, even doughgirl is not different. You receive information through your senses only. All the senses are equally important as channels of information. Trying to picture yourself as a computer, you subjectively bring up some senses and put down other ones as less important. It would be OK, if you could be a thing in itself, but you are a part of human “”noosphere”’ (in apprentices because it is used as a metaphor), - or - what is more important – you are talking to me.. I have no reason to love other humans less than I love you. A music composer, an artist, a poet goes through the same intellectual process of receiving information through senses and complying output, - as you do. The human channel of non-logic is a part of my experience as well as programming is. If you get wise – a poet gets more poetic. Due to my religion I have to love both Einstein and Mike Tyson as equally intellectual and valid, - and they are. We are discussing the Bible -how are we going to apply logic to poetry and music of the Bible. Doughgirl may use senses which are undeveloped and suppressed in you. I have no reason to give them less value than to your logic.
You can get wiser only by applying your knowledge to your problems in your life. Only the application can make you wiser. I would be happy to be helpful, even if I don’t see how…
“because a wise man has eyes in his heart, while the fool walks in the darkness’’ , “’ it is better to heed a wise man’s rebuke, than to listen to the song of fools””,
“but I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both.’’

I've read them, and i've only come across you on the path towards finding something new. I think you highly underestimate yourself, surely you have some contribution to make. Everything you speak cannot be regurgitation.

I am not sure whether you are joking…
All I am doing is trying not to go too far away from the Bible. Yes, my belief in your freedom of choice does not let me to impose too many scriptures on you…, but, also I am not imposing them because I see that would be the worst way to communicate my thoughts to you. You understand logic, so I am trying to keep up. But in the end you still are talking to a Christian, may be even to a fundamentalist Christian, - at least in my own view. Though I must accept there are a lot of rumors and barbaric superstitions walking ahead of us. We do not eat children, if you can take my word, our stomachs are the same as yours. Of course, we go to Church, because we are sinners, but it does not necessarily mean we always have more sins than those who don’t go ...-.

Quite often, just not so frequently in philosophy or politics. Science though...

There is no area in our existence and in the existence of the universe where we operate with absolute amounts (except the absolute reason I suggested above)). We always have to measure the difference, - of potentials, of levels, of mass. 5 never is 5, it is the difference between 6 and 1. I compare and thus I know I exist – could say Dante.
The difference of potentials between the beginning and the end of Newton’s theory is the same as the difference between the beginning and the end of Einstein’s theory. Both of them were absolutely equally happy, both of them received the same amount and quality of personal experience, (plus people watching them). If you live your own life, only your own experience (comprehension) matters to you. In your own life a change in politics or philosophy does not impact you in any measure different from a similar change (difference between ‘’new and old’’) which used to impact your ancestor. Actions and feelings and increase of potential of your ancestor, viewing his “new”, have no difference from your reaction to your “’new’’ . It is all the same for a human, unless you are going to live forever in your human body. Of course, you can argue that your main feeling is feeling of the humanity… …like YOU are god, - but not God is the One who is God. Your possessions will be the last things for you to worry when you shall die ------ will politics or science be the first worry?
“”What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun’’’

Ill be here...

I may skip it at all , unless an idea strikes me on a fly, - I do not want to invent things I don’t feel.

 

[justone]

]
Yes...there are many different levels of faith, Unless you actually think your faith is a mimick of the level held by the Pope? Or by myself?

Every single person of faith has a different "Level" of belief than every other person...this is simple reality. Just as every person has a different understanding of what this "God" entity is. To deny this obvious Human condition is rather self defeating, if you intend to make yourself respectable in debate.
.

Chimps act according to their instincts. A certain action of the surrounding world causes a quite predetermined reaction from a chimp. In some way it may be represented as very narrow channel conducting information from the world to the chimp, and, accordingly, as a very narrow spectrum of chimp’s reaction.
Humans have the channel as wide as the surrounding world. Humans receive all the information. Due to personal comprehension of the world each human sorts the information in categories, which, at the moment, may be less or more important for a person, less or more urgent, less or more related to personal experience. Sorting of the new information is also controlled by previously received information, sometimes called memory, and by the ability to compare the new one to the old one and synthesize them at need. Since experience (comprehension) is different for different people, one can observe different reaction. We all are different.
It is theoretically possible and sometimes practical to categorize us in a loose way.
As a logical, but not factual extension of the above, “categories’’ of faith may be suspected. But as world de facto is the same for all humans who live in it, a certain faith de facto is the same for those who carry it.
As an example there are different gospels describing the same faith. In reality John and Luke have exactly the same faith, but personal comprehension, processing, urgency and importance of the moments and facts are different. None of them has less faith or a slightly different faith.
If the gospels were exactly the same, if they were the only gospel, we would immediately suspect a fair tale or a handmade cult.
The suspected “Categories” may be looked at as differences in description of the crucifixion by those who conducted the crucifixion. If they, from different positions, different angles of view, different knowledge about previous event, different orders received by them, different reaction to cruelty, etc, - if all of them told us exactly the same story, we would immediately suspect them taking money, but not doing work, and most likely releasing the criminal, - we would suspect some kind of conspiracy to fool us around.
There are no categories or levels of faith in reality.
Dogh girl and I are totally different, she has not clue about things I know and understand, about things which are really bright and important for me personally, her bright spots are different, - at the same time we have the same category of faith. We believe that Christ came back and talked to people after his death. All our comprehension of the world tells us so, even if we look at the world from different angles. Our faith is blind, because we were not there. We have to rely on witnesses, on “’forensic”’ evidence, - like random picked up members of a jury who are sentencing somebody to death, even if they have never been at the murder scene. One of the jurors has a PhD, another one is a garbage man, – and all of them are humans looking from different angles at the same evidence. If Christ was not resurrected there would be no Christianity, - we would represent a cult, at the most. All other things in NT would have nothing to do with God; - they would be a good philosophy, or some kind of moral wisdom…. But as we read NT, – listen to the case, - we have no doubt Christ is alive. And so we sign our verdict. It is not categorized; it is not less dead or more dead. Our reaction and personal feelings towards the death may be categorized, but death penalty means only one category of death, - death. Our temperament may be loosely categorized. Action is the same, reaction is different.

The question is direct and simple – is Christ alive or not. No levels or categories.

... But it is interesting to read how chimps look at us, - from a very narrow, choked angle.

 

[tecoyah]

Dude.....whats with you and Chimps?