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Religion in school gone grazy

RogueWarrior

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http://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/pupil-s-phone-hacked-muslim-teacher-end-forbidden-relationship

A teacher at one of the state schools in Birmingham, U.K. illegally hacked into a pupil’s phone in an attempt to separate her from her boyfriend because they were in a “forbidden” relationship.

Does it matter that the school is islamic?
Would christian schools be any different? Pro tip: no.
Brandon Davies suspended by BYU after admitting sex with girlfriend, breaking honor code - NY Daily News

Religion does not belong in state schools.
 
Not only is one a private school,and the other state run, but one did not involve illegal activity and one most certainly did.

I suppose when one sets out to indulge in false equivalences, little facts like these need to be ignored.
 
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Pupil

Does it matter that the school is islamic?
Would christian schools be any different? Pro tip: no.
[Religion does not belong in state schools.

As others have pointed out, BYU is private. As a private group, they can set its own standards.

That aside, my general understanding is that the British have established religously oriented public schools. These public schools seem to operate in a similar way to US charter schools and exist for Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Christians.

Students at these schools may well be subject to some (and that well maybe the key term) degree of religously inspired teaching and behavorial expectations. That would not justify the teacher's actions, but it would show they did not occur in a vacuam.
 
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A private school can set any standards it wishes but even in that the school has to be careful that it's instructors and admistration follow set listed rules of behavior. Being a private school does not give that institution, administration, or staff carte blance to make up rules as they go along.

The student does surrender many aspects of common rights and privileges when attending private school...but not all rights are reliquished.

The School has to be very clear as to what is expected of the student before the student signs the contract to attend.
 
BYU receives federal money which means they should be playing by federal rules.
If they want to impose religious dogma on their students or demand students live by their religious dogma then no federal money. Simple concept of separation between church and state.

I think having your cake and eating it too applies here.

The BYU College of Physical and Mathematical Sciences is pleased to announce prestigious grants received by five faculty members in the Department of Computer Science.

The grants were funded by various U.S. government agencies, particularly the Office of Naval Research (ONR) and the National Science Foundation (NSF). Both organizations are committed to scientific advancement and regularly fund the work of CPMS faculty.

emphasis mine
 
That aside, my general understanding is that the British have established religously oriented public schools. These public schools seem to operate in a similar way to US charter schools and exist for Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Christians.

Students at these schools may well be subject to some (and that well maybe the key term) degree of religously inspired teaching and behavorial expectations. That would not justify the teacher's actions, but it would show they did not occur in a vacuam.


The term 'Public school' doesn't have quite the same meaning in England as it does here in the U.S., or at least it didn't used to. The distinctions can be confusing to non-UK residents.

Public school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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BYU receives federal money which means they should be playing by federal rules.
If they want to impose religious dogma on their students or demand students live by their religious dogma then no federal money. Simple concept of separation between church and state.

I think having your cake and eating it too applies here.



emphasis mine

This is petty sniveling. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, et al are technically private 'religious' universities, and receive federal grants as well. Xian hate fantasies aside, the Constitution doesn't in any way whatsoever establish freedom from religion, and indeed directly states the federal government can make no laws restricting the free exercise thereof, which means they can't discriminate against individuals and institutions because of their religion. I know psuedo-intellectuals and whiney 'New Atheists' really hate that but that's the way it is. There is no legal way for the Feds to pass laws denying grants to universities just on the basis of their religious affiliations.
 
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BYU isn't a state school, so what does BYU have to do with this story about a British state school?

I agree that religion has no place in state schools in the US, but that isn't what this story is about.

Actually it has just as much a 'place' in state schools as atheism does.
 
The term 'Public school' doesn't have quite the same meaning in England as it does here in the U.S., or at least it didn't used to. The distinctions can be confusing to non-UK residents.

Public school (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was thinking of this type of arrangement:First Hindu state school eyes expansion | Education | The Guardian

This article uses the term "state school" and seems to imply that they recieve public funding. Maybe these schools are hybrid public / private?
 
BYU receives federal money which means they should be playing by federal rules.
If they want to impose religious dogma on their students or demand students live by their religious dogma then no federal money. Simple concept of separation between church and state.

I think having your cake and eating it too applies here.

emphasis mine

Nonsense.

The reason Brandon Davies was suspended by BYU was because he violated an honor code that he had previously agreed to adhere to.

That code may take religious morality as its precedent, but the code in and of itself isn't religious.

So the principal of entanglement doesn't even enter the picture here.

If it did, there is no law that outright prohibits the U.S. government from consorting with religious organizations (the Constitution prohibits the establishment of a national religion, nothing more) so any time this comes up it boils down to a matter of interpretation and the courts look at the degree to which the government's involvement with a religious organization might violate the "spirit" of the law.

When this issue relates to legislation, a much more formal involvement than simply funding some research, the SCOTUS in Lemon v. Kurtzman established what is called the "Lemon Test".

Interpreted for the purposes of non-legislative funding of research by an executive agency of the government the test would look something like the following:

1. Does the funding result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religious affairs?
2. Does the funding advance or inhibit religious practice?
3. Does the funding have a secular purpose?

In so far as research funding from the ONR and NSF is concerned, I think that we have to answer an absolute yes to the third point.

In respect to point number two, we're not discussing the government funding anything related to religious practice. At worst we're talking about religious morality, which is very different than religious practice.

The first point is really the only gray area. It really comes down to a subjective interpretation of the word "excessive". Personally, I don't think thhat funding scientific research at a private religious school is an "excessive" entanglement between government and religion.

You might feel differently, and if you do you're certainly welcome to sue the government.

I doubt you'd get very far.
 
I was thinking of this type of arrangement:First Hindu state school eyes expansion | Education | The Guardian

This article uses the term "state school" and seems to imply that they recieve public funding. Maybe these schools are hybrid public / private?
Brit to the rescue! As it happens, I teach in a school within a couple of miles of some of the schools in Birmingham that are currently under investigation, although my own school is not.

In the UK most schools are state schools - that is, their income is government-based and there is no fee to pupils. There are also private schools (which use pupil fees as a source of income) but these are rarer. Until five years ago or so, state schools were overseen by their local councils, who were responsible for several key issues such as overall budget, general curriculum content, and so on. However, more recently the government has set up additional 'free schools' and 'academies' - schools which do not charge fees and are government-funded, but which have no local council oversight and (in the case of free schools - academies are pre-existing state schools that have converted to 'academy status') can be set up by anyone - parents, local religious groups, even companies. Although these schools do not have local council oversight, they still have to meet a certain standard of education and so are still subject to inspection by Ofsted - the governmental body which judges schools.

In Birmingham recently, there have been allegations made of a plot by hardline Muslims to infiltrate schools as governors (each school has governors - bodies consisting of some teachers, some parents and some external members who are involved in running the school) and then spread extremist ideology. The investigation is ongoing, but there have been at least a couple of nasty-looking leaks so far (and, in fairness, several schools which received outstanding reports). The formal report is due this coming week, I believe.

EDIT: As for the 'phone' story, I hadn't come across it before, which is unusual that it made it's way to a random website without being picked up by the news - so I'd take it with a certain pinch of salt, especially given that pupils who have been suspended from a school do not normally report honestly about why they were kicked out. However, I'm sure we will find out more when the report comes out next week.
 
Brit to the rescue! As it happens, I teach in a school within a couple of miles of some of the schools in Birmingham that are currently under investigation, although my own school is not.

In the UK most schools are state schools - that is, their income is government-based and there is no fee to pupils. There are also private schools (which use pupil fees as a source of income) but these are rarer. Until five years ago or so, state schools were overseen by their local councils, who were responsible for several key issues such as overall budget, general curriculum content, and so on. However, more recently the government has set up additional 'free schools' and 'academies' - schools which do not charge fees and are government-funded, but which have no local council oversight and (in the case of free schools - academies are pre-existing state schools that have converted to 'academy status') can be set up by anyone - parents, local religious groups, even companies. Although these schools do not have local council oversight, they still have to meet a certain standard of education and so are still subject to inspection by Ofsted - the governmental body which judges schools.

Thanks for the good information.

We have a similiar concept here with the "Charter School" program. The schools ae still public, and supported by state funds, but can seek additional funding through interested businesses, groups and parents. Charter schools can also present spins, but not slants.

Charter schools here come in alot of flavors- some are science based, others artistic, others present material that is weighted towards a certain ethnicity (usually black or hispanic), some are very structured and others have no structure and students learn what they are personally interested in.

I dont think direct establishment of a religously oriented charter schools is permissible here. But schools that are centered on "Great Books / Ideas of Western Civilization" can present a certain amount of Christianity. Likewise, a California school that was centered on "Arabic language / civilization" presented a certain amount of Islam.

As a side note, Charter Schools have not really taken off here. My general understanding is that they are usually small and heavily dependent on a small number of talented and dedicated teachers and parents. If even a small number leave, they can have a huge quality impact. As a result, the quality of education can fluctuate very quickly.
 
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