Regarding An Obsolete Definition of conservatives

[Ancient Herald]

Wa back in the 1980s I was a teenage and was just learning about the definitions of liberal and conservatives.

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

That's how I first learned about the differences between liberal and conservatives.

Now i just don't think those definitions apply anymore. They don't seem to fit at all.

Because now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

And that will eventually be one of the leading influence on what will cause America to go bankrupt some time in the future.

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

This is not a day i look forward because a lot of people are going to be hurt. A lot of people will pose their government paycheck and will be forced out into the street.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

 

[betuadollar]

Those guys smoking dope and snorting coke? Those are the liberals. The conservative are the guys in camo,

 

[joG]

Wa back in the 1980s I was a teenage and was just learning about the definitions of liberal and conservatives.

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

That's how I first learned about the differences between liberal and conservatives.

Now i just don't think those definitions apply anymore. They don't seem to fit at all.

Because now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

And that will eventually be one of the leading influence on what will cause America to go bankrupt some time in the future.

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

This is not a day i look forward because a lot of people are going to be hurt. A lot of people will pose their government paycheck and will be forced out into the street.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

If the voters like their representative to spend stupid amounts of money. .....

 

[Beaudreaux]

Wa back in the 1980s I was a teenage and was just learning about the definitions of liberal and conservatives.

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

That's how I first learned about the differences between liberal and conservatives.

Now i just don't think those definitions apply anymore. They don't seem to fit at all.

Because now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

And that will eventually be one of the leading influence on what will cause America to go bankrupt some time in the future.

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

This is not a day i look forward because a lot of people are going to be hurt. A lot of people will pose their government paycheck and will be forced out into the street.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

If you'd like to find out what the GOP and real Conservatism is, read about Barry Goldwater - The senator from Arizona that held John McCain's Senate seat before McCain.

Read about his ideas regarding what would happen to the GOP if Jerry Falwell and the Christian Right were to gain control of the GOP - and you will see that he was correct.

Read what he said about Gays in the military, and you may be surprised.

Read what he said about spending tax money.

Read what he said about why he was in Congress, and about passing laws versus repealing them.

Read what he felt should be the role of the federal government, and what is not - you will see that the GOP has lost its way on that point as well.

I'm a Goldwater Republican. And, yes - the term Conservative has been hijacked and redefined to focus on Religious Social Issues rather than what it used to, and still should, mean.

 

[Paleocon]

Wa back in the 1980s I was a teenage and was just learning about the definitions of liberal and conservatives.

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

That's how I first learned about the differences between liberal and conservatives.

Now i just don't think those definitions apply anymore. They don't seem to fit at all.

Because now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

And that will eventually be one of the leading influence on what will cause America to go bankrupt some time in the future.

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

This is not a day i look forward because a lot of people are going to be hurt. A lot of people will pose their government paycheck and will be forced out into the street.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

A conservative is someone who wishes to preserve tradition and the natural ordering of society. A liberal is someone who wants to promote maximum freedom of action at the expense of these things, they also tend to be looser with money.

If you'd like to find out what the GOP and real Conservatism is, read about Barry Goldwater

Yes Barry Goldwater is an excellent person to read about if you want to know the difference between the worthless neoconservative stalwarts of the GOP and real conservatives.

 

[David_N]

If you'd like to find out what the GOP and real Conservatism is, read about Barry Goldwater - The senator from Arizona that held John McCain's Senate seat before McCain.

Read about his ideas regarding what would happen to the GOP if Jerry Falwell and the Christian Right were to gain control of the GOP - and you will see that he was correct.

Read what he said about Gays in the military, and you may be surprised.

Read what he said about spending tax money.

Read what he said about why he was in Congress, and about passing laws versus repealing them.

Read what he felt should be the role of the federal government, and what is not - you will see that the GOP has lost its way on that point as well.

I'm a Goldwater Republican. And, yes - the term Conservative has been hijacked and redefined to focus on Religious Social Issues rather than what it used to, and still should, mean.

Barry was pro choice, was he not? The republicans need to focus on actually being conservative. Cut the bloated military, offer ACTUAL SOLUTIONS to our safety net that do not harm the poor, quit focusing tax cuts on the rich, let people control their own bodies, end the war on drugs.. As it stands now, republicans are representing and playing to religious people/pro life individuals, just look at the PP joke that wriled up the republicans..

 

[Riveroaks]

Wa back in the 1980s I was a teenage and was just learning about the definitions of liberal and conservatives.

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

That's how I first learned about the differences between liberal and conservatives.

Now i just don't think those definitions apply anymore. They don't seem to fit at all.

Because now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

And that will eventually be one of the leading influence on what will cause America to go bankrupt some time in the future.

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

This is not a day i look forward because a lot of people are going to be hurt. A lot of people will pose their government paycheck and will be forced out into the street.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

Both sides spend like crazy -- they just spend on different things.

The far right like to spend on military/industrial. They also "spend" on tax cuts for the rich. I refuse to call them by their false moniker "conservative" because they are not conserving anything except wealth for the wealthy.

The far left loves to spend on all social programs. FDR was good at infrastructure spending, but the far left have done very little if any of that in a long time. I refuse to call them by their fake moniker "liberal" because liberal means allowing more freedoms to people whereas the far left has infringed on almost all freedoms especially gun rights.

You need a score card to tell the two apart. Either extreme is equally bad except when it comes to SCOTUS appointment. In that case the GOP definitely exceeds the DEM's in proficiency. All the Clinton and Obama SCOTUS appointees have been atrocious communists.

 

[Riveroaks]

Barry was pro choice, was he not? The republicans need to focus on actually being conservative. Cut the bloated military, offer ACTUAL SOLUTIONS to our safety net that do not harm the poor, quit focusing tax cuts on the rich, let people control their own bodies, end the war on drugs.. As it stands now, republicans are representing and playing to religious people/pro life individuals, just look at the PP joke that wriled up the republicans..

"Liberal" would mean allowing choice in abortion issues because that means more freedom and liberal means more freedom. In this case the Liberals are consistent with their moniker.

"Liberal" would mean allowing more legal dope use such as MaryJane. Again this refers to more freedoms.

Ever since Jefferson the "Liberals" have been trying to cut the military so they could allocate the money to other programs instead.

Cutting the military is NOT a good idea with China to our west and Russia to our east.

But getting out of gihad wars around the globe and emphasizing readiness against China and Russia WOULD BE a good idea.

So the GOP does NOT need to focus on cutting the military -- that in fact is a very dumb idea.

 

[Riveroaks]

A conservative is someone who wishes to preserve tradition and the natural ordering of society. A liberal is someone who wants to promote maximum freedom of action at the expense of these things, they also tend to be looser with money.



Yes Barry Goldwater is an excellent person to read about if you want to know the difference between the worthless neoconservative stalwarts of the GOP and real conservatives.

Boy are YOU ever living in the past -- and also thoroughly brainwashed too.

 

[Paleocon]

Barry was pro choice, was he not?

Yes, he was a worthless, immoral, malodorous, liberal.

 

[Visbek]

and My friends father taught me that being conservative was about the control of spending money, saving it for a rainy day, and being sensible with money. not necessarily being a skin flint like Scrooge, but just being wise with the money.

And he taught me that being liberal was spending lots of money.

There are numerous definitions of both of those terms, inside and outside the context of politics.

"Conservative" can mean...
- holding onto older values or traditions
- a reserved and conventional person
- avoiding risk and minimizing potential damage (e.g. a conservative vs aggressive medical treatment)

"Liberal" can mean...
- open to new ideas, experiences etc
- believes in individual rights and liberties
- broadly construing a situation
- generous amounts (e.g. "liberal use of soy sauce in the dish")

The term "liberal" really isn't a good fit for how it's often used in modern political parlance. E.g. both conservatives and liberals tend to believe in individual rights. "Leftist" isn't great either, but it's more suitable.

Of course, nowadays, conservatives refer to moderates as "leftists" and "liberals," and anyone even slightly left of center as a "socialist." Ah well.

....now there seems to be a competition between the two groups on who can out spend whom.

Ehh, I don't think that's quite the case.

Most conservatives want smaller government, and that doesn't necessarily mean less spending. E.g. if you're waging a war, you're not necessarily expanding the role of government, but you're spending craploads of money.

Most conservatives want less debt. They also want to cut taxes. The evidence is pretty good that the latter does not help at all with the former; i.e. cutting taxes, in the real world, does not result in greater tax revenues. Thus, when you cut taxes, you get revenue shortfalls, which increases debt if you can't pay for it with spending cuts.

In addition, Republican politicians are stuck with numerous political realities, e.g.:
- cutting Social Security and Medicare is extremely difficult, and can't happen without buy-in from Democrats
- 70% of the federal budget is military, SS, Medicare, interest on debt, Veterans
- almost everything else has a constituency who wants that spending
- most citizens want to cut federal spending in the abstract, but don't want to cut anything (except foreign aid, which is around 1% of the budget)


Democrats are not terrified of using government to achieve certain goals and provide public goods. However, they're not always the spendthrifts they're made out to be. E.g. government spending was flat in the Clinton years. Obama gets a lot of stick for soaring deficits, but the reality is they were due to Bush-era programs and externalities -- the worst economic downturn in over 70 years, two wars, the Bush tax cuts, Medicare Part D....

no one's trying to conserve anything. All the government is doing is getting bigger and bigger and bigger with no end in sight.

Yeah, not so much.

The percentage of the workforce in the public sector peaked around 1975 at 18%, and has been trending down. In particular, federal employment has dropped steadily since 1955; most of the increases in that time were in local government. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-government-is-at-the-lowest-level-on-record/)

Federal spending as a percentage of GDP dropped from the early 80s to the mid 2000's, and jumped up mostly because the recession.

Federal spending per capita has increased gradually over the years (adjusted for inflation). We should note that it was flat during the Eisenhower, Nixon and Clinton years; it skyrocketed under Bush, and Obama has been bringing it down slowly. This should not surprise people much, because the population is getting older and older, which increases entitlement spending.

Government hasn't expanded its functions all that much in the past ~20 years. It's regulated food, employment, transportation, communications and so forth for at least 100 years now. The NSA has been around for decades, and was doing the same stuff in the 70s as it's doing today (and got in trouble back then, too). The biggest expansion is in environmental protection, which really is needed. Read up a bit on smog in the 70s if you don't believe it.

it will only end when America collapses under its own weight.

Don't hold your breath.

But i just can't see how our politicians are being liberal or conservative any more, and i would like a better and more accurate term that describes them.

Good luck with that.