Read the never-issued Trump order that would have seized voting machines

[Slyfox696]

Seems you are misunderstanding my argument. Perhaps on purpose. Perhaps not.

My argument isn't "all the other kids try to overthrow the country too!".
My argument is that this never proceeded beyond a draft, never acted on, never got any further, was highly likely reconsidered and rejected.

No, I understand your argument just fine. It's just incredibly stupid and amounts to, "all the other kids are doing it too"...while ignoring the difference between a typical draft memo and one that is explicitly designed to overthrow the country, a document the former President tried to hide from Americans through use of the court system.

It seems you are having trouble understanding the difference. Perhaps on purpose. Perhaps not.

Frankly, it should have been destroyed

So...you think a document which, by law, has to be retained should have been destroyed? Huh, so now you're all about breaking the law and destroying records. How very...not surprising.

that it wasn't, that it was given to the 1/6 commission, that they leaked it, is all rather suspicious.

They "leaked" it? It should be made public. It shows contemplation of overthrowing our democracy. The fact you seem less concerned about that than you are about the fact the "leaked" document wasn't "destroyed" pretty much supports what I've long thought about you.

From a draft of an EO which was never issued?

Yes. And if you wish to understand why, please start by consulting the definition of "evidence". I think it will illuminate things for you.

Who's yanking on your strings?

Says the person who sees a draft memo to overthrow one of the most powerful countries in the world and cares only that Americans actually know about it.

How many other draft EOs from how many other administrations have been made public? I can't think of any. Can you? All rather suspicious.

Things are made public all the time. America literally has laws which allow Americans to request records like these. If you can't think of any, then it's because you either A) don't live in America, B) have no understand how public record laws work or C) are pretending to be stupid to advance your political agenda.

My gut, based on your history, is C.

 

[Slyfox696]

Nope. One does not have to believe that "The 2020 election was the most fraud free election in history" to also recognize that what the President and his coterie did in trying to overturn it was wrong.




I'm not sure what you mean by "late decided", but, thank you, at least, for that.



Not for lack of trying.



The problem there becomes that they not only took actions, they wrote down on paper what those actions were going to be ahead of time, and members since them have publicly discussed the fact that they took those actions.

A failed attempt to overturn an election and the Constitution is still an attempt to overturn an election and the Constitution.



It was indeed.



That is indeed part of how Propaganda teaches us to view the world through a simple, tribal, lense, in which we must ignore the abuses of members of "our" team in order to only jump up and down and be angry about abuses by members of the "other" team. FOX, for example, does this to right-wingers, just as MSNBC does it to left-leangers.

This post deserves more Likes.

 

[eohrnberger]

No, I understand your argument just fine. It's just incredibly stupid and amounts to, "all the other kids are doing it too"...while ignoring the difference between a typical draft memo and one that is explicitly designed to overthrow the country, a document the former President tried to hide from Americans through use of the court system.

It seems you are having trouble understanding the difference. Perhaps on purpose. Perhaps not.

So...you think a document which, by law, has to be retained should have been destroyed? Huh, so now you're all about breaking the law and destroying records. How very...not surprising.

This debated with another poster earlier in this, or another thread. It boils down to when does a draft, work in progress, become an official record which needs to be maintained. The records retention legislation was raised, but in the text of that legislation, it doesn't specify anything about drafts, nor works in progress. So this issue remains unresolved.

They "leaked" it? It should be made public. It shows contemplation of overthrowing our democracy. The fact you seem less concerned about that than you are about the fact the "leaked" document wasn't "destroyed" pretty much supports what I've long thought about you.

See the 'draft vs. official record' question comment above.

Yes. And if you wish to understand why, please start by consulting the definition of "evidence". I think it will illuminate things for you.

Says the person who sees a draft memo to overthrow one of the most powerful countries in the world and cares only that Americans actually know about it.

Things are made public all the time. America literally has laws which allow Americans to request records like these. If you can't think of any, then it's because you either A) don't live in America, B) have no understand how public record laws work or C) are pretending to be stupid to advance your political agenda.

My gut, based on your previous history, is C.

 

[Slyfox696]

And so are the Democrats you haven't voted for, for far longer like decades! Just because you didn't see an armed coup from them, doesn't mean they haven't tried to subvert the Constitution. But suddenly you've identified domestic terrorists in your own party. I got real respect for you otherwise, but not on this selectivity, JUST AND ONLY BECAUSE you hate Trump. You're inconsistent, and that doesn't work for me. BLM/Antifa, are domestic terrorists who actually burned down cities and took over police stations, so where are you? You're concentrating on a supposed coup, where a man made a speech THAT NOT A SINGLE SYLLABLE CAN BE TIED TO THE PROMOTION OF VIOLENCE OR ANYTHING RELATED TO TAKING OVER ANYTHING.

If you had consciously sat down and thought really hard to try, you could not have proven cpwill's point below more clearly.

That is indeed part of how Propaganda teaches us to view the world through a simple, tribal, lense, in which we must ignore the abuses of members of "our" team in order to only jump up and down and be angry about abuses by members of the "other" team.

 

[Slyfox696]

This debated with another poster earlier in this, or another thread. It boils down to when does a draft, work in progress, become an official record which needs to be maintained. The records retention legislation was raised, but in the text of that legislation, it doesn't specify anything about drafts, nor works in progress. So this issue remains unresolved.


See the 'draft vs. official record' question comment above.

First of all, the issue is not unresolved. The people whose responsibility it is to retain these records and produce them said it needed to be retained and produced. Second of all, I LOVE how you ignore the fact your concern is not the plot to subvert the election (see also: Eastman memo), a plot which Trump himself was aware of and can be strongly suspected of supporting (tacitly, if not overtly), but rather the fact that Americans found out about the plot. It says quite a bit about you.

 

[eohrnberger]

First of all, the issue is not unresolved.

I disagree. There's clearly a difference between a draft, work in progress, and an official record.

The people whose responsibility it is to retain these records and produce them said it needed to be retained and produced. Second of all, I LOVE how you ignore the fact your concern is not the plot to subvert the election (see also: Eastman memo), a plot which Trump himself was aware of and can be strongly suspected of supporting (tacitly, if not overtly), but rather the fact that Americans found out about the plot. It says quite a bit about you.

You can love whatever false assertions and accusations you want.

The fact of the matter is that no actions detailed in that draft EO were ever taken, the draft EO not having being acted on, and not even being able to act on.

Based on the reading of that draft EO, Trump was wanting to conduct his own audit of the voting machines, which is not in the executive branch's ability or capability, being presidential elections are essentially 50 or 52 state elections, who do have that responsibility.

For all intensive purposes that draft EO is just a piece of paper, and nearly meaningless. Exaggerating it's importance beyond that is hyper-partisan politics over what realistically is a non-issue.

 

[Slyfox696]

I disagree.

Couldn't care less. Doesn't change reality.

You can love whatever

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to love anything.

The fact of the matter is that no actions detailed in that draft EO were ever taken

Yes and attempted robbery and attempted murder are not a concern of our country either. Right? Oh...wait....

For all intensive purposes

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". I don't say that to be smarmy, just to be helpful.

that draft EO is just a piece of paper, and nearly meaningless.

LOL....no. Just no.

I get that you REALLY want people to believe that, and maybe you can convince some idiots it is true. But it is not true. And I think you know that.

Exaggerating it's importance beyond that is hyper-partisan politics over what realistically is a non-issue.

It is hyper-partisan to point out and be concerned how this is now the SECOND document we've seen from the Trump Administration to overthrow the government, a plot we have zero evidence Trump ever quashed, a plot we have plenty of evidence Trump supported?

Again, you may get a few idiots to believe you, but no one with an ounce of intelligence will.

 

[code1211]

And what does this illuminating post have to do with the topic of the thread.

Krebs, Trump's own head of election cybersecurity called it the freest and fairest election in history.

Your post was in regard to software development.

There are questions of human integrity that also apply to elections.

 

[eohrnberger]

Couldn't care less. Doesn't change reality.

Thanks, but I don't need your permission to love anything.

Yes and attempted robbery and attempted murder are not a concern of our country either. Right? Oh...wait....

Except in this case there was nothing even attempted, was there?

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". I don't say that to be smarmy, just to be helpful.

LOL....no. Just no.

I get that you REALLY want people to believe that, and maybe you can convince some idiots it is true. But it is not true. And I think you know that.

See comment about about 'nothing even attempted'.

It is hyper-partisan to point out and be concerned how this is now the SECOND document we've seen from the Trump Administration to overthrow the government, a plot we have zero evidence Trump ever quashed, a plot we have plenty of evidence Trump supported?

That only this has been made public already is a strong indication of the politics being played with it. Even if there was documentation that Trump tried to quash it, it wouldn't be made public for that very reason.

Again, you may get a few idiots to believe you, but no one with an ounce of intelligence will.

My, how absolutely pleasant of you. </sarcasm> I'm sure you treat all who have the temerity to have differing opinions the same.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

The only good thing about this thread, is that there appear to be only a handful of Trump supporters and Republicans responding to it.

At the very least, most Republicans and Trump supporters are too embarrassed by the attempts to make Trump a dictator to respond to this thread.

 

[Slyfox696]

The only good thing about this thread, is that there appear to be only a handful of Trump supporters and Republicans responding to it.

At the very least, most Republicans and Trump supporters are too embarrassed by the attempts to make Trump a dictator to respond to this thread.

A shame it is not "all...are too embarrassed".

 

[Slyfox696]

Except in this case there was nothing even attempted, was there?

...what do you think this was? Conspiracy to commit actions is still conspiracy, even if it doesn't exit the planning stage for whatever reason (like all the living Secretaries of Defense writing and signing their name to a letter warning against using the military to stay in power or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying the military has no role in elections).

That only this has been made public already is a strong indication of the politics being played with it. Even if there was documentation that Trump tried to quash it, it wouldn't be made public for that very reason.

LOL

Yeah, if only there was any other evidence which would lend support...like Trump claiming election was rigged or Trump attorneys filing bogus cases or Trump meeting with the insurrectionists on January 6th or Trump just sitting in the White House doing nothing to call off the insurrectionists or Trump on a recording trying to interfere with election results in Georgia or the Eastman memo...

...if only there was SOME other evidence. Oh well.

My, how absolutely pleasant of you. </sarcasm> I'm sure you treat all who have the temerity to have differing opinions the same.

I'm sorry you think that all opinions are worthy of equal consideration and should enjoy equal respect. Give me a few minutes and I'll find you a nice participation trophy you can display for having taken part in this discussion.

The things you are saying are stupid. Only stupid people would believe them. Whether or not you find the truth pleasant could not mean less to me.

 

[Buckeyes85]

...what do you think this was? Conspiracy to commit actions is still conspiracy, even if it doesn't exit the planning stage for whatever reason (like all the living Secretaries of Defense writing and signing their name to a letter warning against using the military to stay in power or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying the military has no role in elections).

LOL

Yeah, if only there was any other evidence which would lend support...like Trump claiming election was rigged or Trump attorneys filing bogus cases or Trump meeting with the insurrectionists on January 6th or Trump just sitting in the White House doing nothing to call off the insurrectionists or Trump on a recording trying to interfere with election results in Georgia or the Eastman memo...

...if only there was SOME other evidence. Oh well.

I'm sorry you think that all opinions are worthy of equal consideration and should enjoy equal respect. Give me a few minutes and I'll find you a nice participation trophy you can display for having taken part in this discussion.

The things you are saying are stupid. Only stupid people would believe them. Whether or not you find the truth pleasant could not mean less to me.

I'm sure you already know this, but there is no point trying to rationally argue with a conspiracy theorist. The absence of evidence supporting their position is just proof to them of what a great job the conspirators did hiding the evidence of their conspiracy.

 

[eohrnberger]

...what do you think this was? Conspiracy to commit actions is still conspiracy, even if it doesn't exit the planning stage for whatever reason (like all the living Secretaries of Defense writing and signing their name to a letter warning against using the military to stay in power or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying the military has no role in elections).

That you are asserting such terrible things happened when not a single action was taken sure does weaken you argument.

LOL

Yeah, if only there was any other evidence which would lend support...like Trump claiming election was rigged or Trump attorneys filing bogus cases or Trump meeting with the insurrectionists on January 6th or Trump just sitting in the White House doing nothing to call off the insurrectionists or Trump on a recording trying to interfere with election results in Georgia or the Eastman memo...

...if only there was SOME other evidence. Oh well.

I'm sorry you think that all opinions are worthy of equal consideration and should enjoy equal respect. Give me a few minutes and I'll find you a nice participation trophy you can display for having taken part in this discussion.

There's a difference in elaborating differences of opinion and corroborating them, and casting derision on those who have the temerity to hold those differing opinions.
Too bad you can't tell the difference and feel the need to abuse fellow forum posters with whom you disagree with the derision which points to your insecurities. But that is certainly your problem, and not mine.

The things you are saying are stupid. Only stupid people would believe them.

The political hay you are trying to make out of a near nothing appears stupid to me.

Whether or not you find the truth pleasant could not mean less to me.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm sure you already know this, but there is no point trying to rationally argue with a conspiracy theorist.

Of course. But the point is to make sure anyone else reading realizes how stupid the conspiracy theory is. Also, the point is to entertain me on a day when nothing is happening at work.

That you are asserting such terrible things happened when not a single action was taken sure does weaken you argument.

Multiple memos were written. Trump actively sought to interfere in Georgia elections. He actively cast doubt on the integrity of elections in other states. It is simply a lie to say not a single action was taken.

There's a difference in elaborating differences of opinion and corroborating them, and casting derision on those who have the temerity to hold those differing opinions.

I'm not casting anything on those with different opinions...I'm mocking those with stupid opinions. This isn't hard to understand.

Too bad you can't tell the difference and feel the need to abuse fellow forum posters with whom you disagree with the derision which points to your insecurities.

Again, I'll take a look for that participation you clearly so badly desire.

Stupid opinions are still stupid. It's one thing to hold a stupid opinion and then to abandon it when its shortcomings are pointed out. But to continue to hold stupid opinions in the face of overwhelming facts to the contrary does not deserve respect or consideration.

 

[eohrnberger]

Of course. But the point is to make sure anyone else reading realizes how stupid the conspiracy theory is. Also, the point is to entertain me on a day when nothing is happening at work.

Multiple memos were written. Trump actively sought to interfere in Georgia elections. He actively cast doubt on the integrity of elections in other states. It is simply a lie to say not a single action was taken.

My post was specific to the draft EO, the topic of this thread. Not any others.

I'm not casting anything on those with different opinions...I'm mocking those with stupid opinions. This isn't hard to understand.

Beginning to understand that you mock others who have opinions differing from yours, apparently as a matter of course.

Again, I'll take a look for that participation you clearly so badly desire.

Stupid opinions are still stupid. It's one thing to hold a stupid opinion and then to abandon it when its shortcomings are pointed out. But to continue to hold stupid opinions in the face of overwhelming facts to the contrary does not deserve respect or consideration.

Of course any opinion which doesn't match yours you assert as a stupid opinion. Do please carry on.

 

[Slyfox696]

My post was specific to the draft EO, the topic of this thread. Not any others.

The draft EO is absolutely related to everything else and is an active step like the others. What you're trying to say is to ignore how it fits with all the other pieces of the puzzle. That's stupid and only a stupid person would fall for the game you're trying to play. Did you ever bother to look up the word "evidence" like I suggested?

Beginning to understand that you mock others who have opinions differing from yours, apparently as a matter of course.

Not "different" opinions. Stupid opinions. How many times do I have to tell you this? Do you really need me to explain the difference?

Of course any opinion which doesn't match yours you assert as a stupid opinion.

Nonsense. I have many debates in which my position is not agreed upon. That's not the problem.

The problem is you're saying things which are flatly untrue to come up with positions only a stupid person would believe. You want people to ignore reality so you can focus on playing, "but the other kids do it too"...because the reality is that this memo is not like any other draft EO that any other President would have and because this memo fits a pattern of other evidence we have which shows there was serious consideration inside the Trump team to try and overthrow democracy in America. And the idea you're presenting, that the only concern is that it got "leaked" and not illegally destroyed, is so far from an intelligent or rational thought it absolutely requires someone stupid to believe the words you're typing.

 

[eohrnberger]

The draft EO is absolutely related to everything else and is an active step like the others. What you're trying to say is to ignore how it fits with all the other pieces of the puzzle. That's stupid and only a stupid person would fall for the game you're trying to play. Did you ever bother to look up the word "evidence" like I suggested?

Not "different" opinions. Stupid opinions. How many times do I have to tell you this? Do you really need me to explain the difference?

Nonsense. I have many debates in which my position is not agreed upon. That's not the problem.

The problem is you're saying things which are flatly untrue to come up with positions only a stupid person would believe.

Like a draft document is an official document and has the same status as an official document?
This would logically seem to be 'flatly untrue'.

We've both looked over the statute for preservation of documents, and it doesn't address that point, where in the text of the statute is 'draft' present?

Your response to that quite reasonable and logical challenge is 'that's stupid'.

Fine. Believe what you want. Or not. I done with you on this topic
I come away from this discussion that you aren't so good at handling reasonable challenges, resorting to 'that's stupid'.
Well to each their own.

Have a nice day.

You want people to ignore reality so you can focus on playing, "but the other kids do it too"...because the reality is that this memo is not like any other draft EO that any other President would have and because this memo fits a pattern of other evidence we have which shows there was serious consideration inside the Trump team to try and overthrow democracy in America. And the idea you're presenting, that the only concern is that it got "leaked" and not illegally destroyed, is so far from an intelligent or rational thought it absolutely requires someone stupid to believe the words you're typing.

 

[Slyfox696]

Like a draft document is an official document and has the same status as an official document?

Again, you don't seem to understand how the law works. That's okay. Just understand that the persons who are responsible for it have said it needs to be retained and then produced.

We've both looked over the statute for preservation of documents

You're confusing me with someone else. I'm the one who pointed out the reality of the situation. See above.

Your response to that quite reasonable and logical challenge is 'that's stupid'.

It is stupid to think you know better than the people whose literal job it is to know what records are to be retained. It's also stupid to think your red herring changes the reality of the document and what it signifies. It is also stupid to think your red herring will distract me from the larger points, for which you have zero credible responses.

Fine. Believe what you want. Or not. I done with you on this topic

It's not about what I believe. It's about the reality. Why are you struggling so much with reality?

I come away from this discussion that you aren't so good at handling reasonable challenges, resorting to 'that's stupid'.

If that's what you take from this discussion, when I have explicitly explained otherwise on multiple occasions, then perhaps I overestimated your ability to read and comprehend reality.

Well to each their own.

Have a nice day.

I accept your surrender and your decision to run away from the discussion, rather than admit the illogical and ridiculous nature of your argument, is not the least bit surprising.

 

[eohrnberger]

Again, you don't seem to understand how the law works. That's okay. Just understand that the persons who are responsible for it have said it needs to be retained and then produced.

You're confusing me with someone else. I'm the one who pointed out the reality of the situation. See above.

It is stupid to think you know better than the people whose literal job it is to know what records are to be retained. It's also stupid to think your red herring changes the reality of the document and what it signifies. It is also stupid to think your red herring will distract me from the larger points, for which you have zero credible responses.

If there has been some sort of official statement that drafts are included as official records, do please cite it.

It's not about what I believe. It's about the reality. Why are you struggling so much with reality?

If that's what you take from this discussion, when I have explicitly explained otherwise on multiple occasions, then perhaps I overestimated your ability to read and comprehend reality.

I accept your surrender and your decision to run away from the discussion, rather than admit the illogical and ridiculous nature of your argument, is not the least bit surprising.

 

[redbeer]

That last load of Arizona Senate Supoenas was never going anywhere. It was paper from the theater of the absurd. The Arizona Senate had by then cost Maricopa County enough money over bullshit. Had the Arizona Senate actually secured the services of a real audit company instead of a bullshit political hack, they might have succeeded in getting more out of Maricopa County. As it was, Here is the letter from Maricopa County to the Arizona Senate. Its as much of a "go pound sand" as imaginable from one public servant to another. If the Arizona Senate had a case to make to actually get the additional material they would have made it by now.

View attachment 67370781hat

And still to date, Maricopa county officials have not released the security logs of adjudicated ballots, as ordered under the subpoena.....let's not forget this fact, they are so hard running from, as evidenced in the above letter.

 

[jnug]

And still to date, Maricopa county officials have not released the security logs of adjudicated ballots, as ordered under the subpoena.....let's not forget this fact, they are so hard running from, as evidenced in the above letter.

And I would not either and I think you can wait for those till you are blue in the face. NOT HAPPENING. Hold your breath if you must. I wouldn't if I were you.

Notice there has not really been a peep out of the Arizona Senate since the "go shit in your hat" letter from Maricopa County. Arizona Senate does not want to get sued over this. They are in enough hot water for being all hat, no cowboy IDIOTS.

 

[redbeer]

And I would not either and I think you can wait for those till you are blue in the face. NOT HAPPENING. Hold your breath if you must. I wouldn't if I were you.

Notice there has not really been a peep out of the Arizona Senate since the "go shit in your hat" letter from Maricopa County. Arizona Senate does not want to get sued over this. They are in enough hot water for being all hat, no cowboy IDIOTS.

That's is what is needed....the lawsuit will force all this information to be made publicly available. These people or Dominion are not above the law.....submit the requested info....what are you hiding?

 

[Quag]

It is becoming more and more clear who was actually trying to steal the election. Time that thinking Repubpicans sit back and take stock of the real facts.

It was always clear.

 

[jnug]

That's is what is needed....the lawsuit will force all this information to be made publicly available. These people or Dominion are not above the law.....submit the requested info....what are you hiding?

It does not look like the Arizona Senate has the balls to press the issue to a suit. Gee, wonder why that is.