Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

[Graffight]

Your argument is flawed. If a parent raises their child to be well mannered and then brutally murders an old lady, it's the parent's fault for not raising their kid properly?

not necessarily, but often times it is...children raised by certain types of parents and in certain environments are FAR less likely to do this type of thing. You always here about the people who commit terrible acts as having some sort of messed up past...

 

[First Thought]

Remember when I said there was something I couldn't translate to a non-believer? This is it. The only right law is God's law. Your example doesn't even seem to grasp the point, and someone a lot better than me would have to explain it, but it's sooo simple...:/

Defying logic may be simple to you, but not I. You said that it was okay for a CHILD to be punished for his PARENT'S mistakes. You then justified it by saying that parents should raise their children better. That argument is so far from sensible that it's not even amusing.

 

[First Thought]

not necessarily, but often times it is...children raised by certain types of parents and in certain environments are FAR less likely to do this type of thing. You always here about the people who commit terrible acts as having some sort of messed up past...

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Oh, thank you, you are right. I guess I was thinking too narrowly, like God doesn't kill children because of something an adult does anymore, because of Christ, but yes, you are right. Look how bad this generation is, and it will get much much worse.

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

 

[Graffight]

What you are talking about is called generational sin and that has not really changed. basically it means that the next generation will be more wicked than the generation before it. Not only would they continue to practice the sins passed on to them from their fathers but they would invent new ones and pass them on to their own children That did not stop with the coming of Christ.

The Old Testament also made provision to break the curse of generational sin.

Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

Eze 18:15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

The generational curse is not something that God inflicts upon us but rather something that we inflict upon ourselves. The whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 pretty much deals with this issue

Moe

It's wonderful to see people who really study and have put in the time...I want to get to this point in my study and understanding Talking to people like this guy made me want to learn how to actually read the bible.

 

[DarkWizard12]

It's wonderful to see people who really study and have put in the time...I want to get to this point in my study and understanding Talking to people like this guy made me want to learn how to actually read the bible.

The mind is like iron, you sharpen it by rubbing 2 of them against each other!

 

[Graffight]

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

What she's saying is it's not God that causes the children to be punished for the parents mistakes...Sin causes it's own punishment most of the time...if you are raised by sinners you are more likely to take on their sins...In effect the parents are punishing their children for their own sins. That's why stuff like drinking and smoking gets passed down generation to generation. Most of the time the sin brings it's own consequences....Sin is an epidemic and it spreads like one from generation to generation and it get's worse as time goes on until someone breaks the cycle trough God's Grace.

 

[Graffight]

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

yeah i think it is...i think we're going to see a major return of family values.

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

Do what thing? She said that it was okay for a child to be punished for the PARENTS mistake. That would mean that the parent would be the one making the mistake, not the child. Yet the child is reprimanded for it.

Okay, let me try...

Oh, I think it's a culture difference. In the Bible, children were extentions of the parents, and that's how God saw them. If the parents were good and followed the law, then they would bring their children up to do the same, and if those children grew up and fell away, their children had a harder time, so they were wicked because of their parents. Now after Christ, we are all individuals, but yes sin does get worse with each generation.

Your example of "manners" and then "murder" doesn't really even come close to why God's laws were what they were, that was the part I couldn't explain...:2wave:

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

Not really. As a keen observer of my fellow generation, I can say with full certainty that this generation will be much better off than the generation before it. If you noticed, since the 1960's, society (in the US) has been inching its way back to the more conservative values of the past, if ever so slowly.

It doesn't really feel that way to me right now, but I do hope you are right.

 

[First Thought]

What she's saying is it's not God that causes the children to be punished for the parents mistakes...

That may have been what she was implying, but not what she said. This confusion could be avoided if certain people said what they meant.
:werd

Sin causes it's own punishment most of the time...if you are raised by sinners you are more likely to take on their sins...In effect the parents are punishing their children for their own sins. That's why stuff like drinking and smoking gets passed down generation to generation. Most of the time the sin brings it's own consequences....Sin is an epidemic and it spreads like one from generation to generation and it get's worse as time goes on until someone breaks the cycle trough God's Grace.

Some studies show that the progeny of religious parents are MORE likely to "sin"(partake in alcohol and sexual acts mainly) because they're trying to lash out at their parents. Also, kids who were raised with "abstinence only" minded parents are more likely to not use a condom when they lose their virginity.

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

What she's saying is it's not God that causes the children to be punished for the parents mistakes...Sin causes it's own punishment most of the time...if you are raised by sinners you are more likely to take on their sins...In effect the parents are punishing their children for their own sins. That's why stuff like drinking and smoking gets passed down generation to generation. Most of the time the sin brings it's own consequences....Sin is an epidemic and it spreads like one from generation to generation and it get's worse as time goes on until someone breaks the cycle trough God's Grace.

Thank you so much for that! That's exactly what I wanted to say.

 

[DarkWizard12]

It doesn't really feel that way to me right now, but I do hope you are right.

Thats because the 60's/70's generation is still in control, it will take another decade or two before mine/yours generation can retake the reins.

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

That may have been what she was implying, but not what she said. This confusion could be avoided if certain people said what they meant.
:werd

I know, I know, I'm trying my best...



Some studies show that the progeny of religious parents are MORE likely to "sin"(partake in alcohol and sexual acts mainly) because they're trying to lash out at their parents. Also, kids who were raised with "abstinence only" minded parents are more likely to not use a condom when they lose their virginity.

You still don't seem to understand... Studies won't help with this...

 

[DarkWizard12]

Some studies show that the progeny of religious parents are MORE likely to "sin"(partake in alcohol and sexual acts mainly) because they're trying to lash out at their parents. Also, kids who were raised with "abstinence only" minded parents are more likely to not use a condom when they lose their virginity.

Although I generally agree that most studies say this, its also irrelevent because 1)there is as many interpretations of good parenting as there is interpretations of the bible and 2)"not sinning" is not really the goal of christianity.

 

[First Thought]

You still don't seem to understand... Studies won't help with this...

I understand that I do not understand. I have come to terms with the fact that I cannot comprehend the way that you, Moe, Graffight, Darkwizard, etc. think. I don't harbor any ill will towards any of you over this: Our brains simply work differently.

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

I understand that I do not understand. I have come to terms with the fact that I cannot comprehend the way that you, Moe, Graffight, Darkwizard, etc. think. I don't harbor any ill will towards any of you over this: Our brains simply work differently.

Yes, I didn't mean to sound like I'm harping on you, I'm just sincerely sad that you can't understand and I'm unable to explain. I have no hard feelings for you either. :2wave:

 

[Graffight]

I understand that I do not understand. I have come to terms with the fact that I cannot comprehend the way that you, Moe, Graffight, Darkwizard, etc. think. I don't harbor any ill will towards any of you over this: Our brains simply work differently.

Nah...i think you understand a lot of this stuff just fine. You are a really smart guy, so you really struggle with a lot of things that on the surface don't make sense intellectually. That's understandable, and honestly that's how it's supposed to be....I wish more Christians had the questions you have, and i wish all the ones who do have those questions were willing to do the research to find the answers. There are very few questions that are unanswered in the bible if you are willing to research and pray about it...it takes smart people like you ask the questions, and smart people to find the answers...it bugs me when people say that we don't think, or we're not logical, or rational because they don't understand, and are unwilling to really work at understanding...Honestly you'd make a great christian (not trying to convert you or anything:mrgreen

 

[First Thought]

Honestly you'd make a great christian (not trying to convert you or anything:mrgreen

It would take a visit from the big man himself. I always hear about these "religious experiences", so I'm curious as to why they never happen to skeptics. Guess we shall see.

 

[Graffight]

It would take a visit from the big man himself. I always hear about these "religious experiences", so I'm curious as to why they never happen to skeptics. Guess we shall see.

you'd be surprised...They do happen to skeptics all the time, it's usually a Christian being compelled by God to do something extraordinary that the skeptic simply can't figure out why they would do something that nice for them...out of the blue...who knows...God works in mysterious ways:mrgreen:

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

It would take a visit from the big man himself. I always hear about these "religious experiences", so I'm curious as to why they never happen to skeptics. Guess we shall see.

I hope you do get an experiance from the Holy Spirit someday. And yes, skeptics do get saved all the time. God can reach anybody regardless of who or where they are. :2wave:

 

[First Thought]

I hope you do get an experiance from the Holy Spirit someday. And yes, skeptics do get saved all the time. God can reach anybody regardless of who or where they are.

Not in my experience.

 

[Southern Belle]

Re: Rationalists/Atheists: Don’t Too Readily Dismiss the Believer

Not in my experience.

Yes, I know... But actually we really aren't supposed to wait for God like that, because he won't really do something like that for everyone. But it is wonderful when he does.

Before you can ever become born again, you'd have to realize that you are a sinner, and be remorseful about all you've done. Even if God would get your attention in some way, you'd still have to do that, and turn against your very nature (which is what non-believers can't really understand) and love Christ and want to please him and learn his ways from the Bible. If you can't admit your sinful nature, you might never know Christ.

 

[First Thought]

Yes, I know... But actually we really aren't supposed to wait for God like that, because he won't really do something like that for everyone. But it is wonderful when he does.

Before you can ever become born again, you'd have to realize that you are a sinner, and be remorseful about all you've done. Even if God would get your attention in some way, you'd still have to do that, and turn against your very nature (which is what non-believers can't really understand) and love Christ and want to please him and learn his ways from the Bible. If you can't admit your sinful nature, you might never know Christ.

I'm not remorseful about anything I've done. All of the things I've done(good and bad) have made me who I am today, and I'm happy with who I am.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

I'm not remorseful about anything I've done.

Really? Have you never wronged anybody or do you just not feel remorse when you do?