Rape and Clothing

NoC_T · Feb 18, 2014

I think the problem with attributing someone's clothing to personal responsibility, is that there's the cut-off between an acknowledged absolute, as in the case of rape being wrong, and the innumerable variations that clothing can take. If there's any correlation of responsibility, as this suggests, then we'd have an ambiguous scale of criminality. That, wearing one combination of clothing, a woman is somehow more to blame for her attack than if she were wearing another combination. That rape would be either more or less wrong in that regard. That if the more revealing is her clothing, the more culpable she is, then total nudity would be somehow more of a green light than if she were wearing a burka.

The fact that a man might react more strongly to one combination than another, is a matter purely of that man's self-control and morality. We don't hold others responsible for our moral choices. Rape is not self-defence, after all. To claim otherwise is to claim that men are mindless beasts.

Gathomas88 · Feb 18, 2014

herenow1 said:
Yes the culture is changing and is always changing...what was wrong is now right,and what was right is now wrong. Let's make this more relatable to you since most men can't relate to rape or the fear of being raped. Let's say you have a gay buddy, and he is open about it to everyone. Let's say you guys go out to a sports bar and watch a game. You have a beer or two but not enough to get you drunk. Your friend parks his car at your house but doesn't feel like driving home so he asks to stay at your place. You say sure, and you both go to different rooms for the night. Let's say 10 min later he comes to your room and starts putting on the moves and talking about how good you looked tonight. You tell him he needs to back off but b/c he is bigger and stronger than you, he overpowers you! You have just been raped and now you can't tell anyone b/c after all YOU gave him permission to stay at your house and you KNEW that he was gay. Who is to blame in this situation?

He is, of course, and I absolutely would tell someone.

It strikes me as being somewhat unlikely that there would be no warning signs ahead of time though.

ChrisL said:
That is not true at all. People still went out on dates back then. Rape has been common throughout the ages. I don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, and dates are a Hell of a lot safer than hanging out with strange men at a bar or nightclub. If for no other reason, this is the case simply because dates don't usually involve copious amounts of alcohol or explicitly sexual clothing or behavior.

Hell, just a few decades before the 1960s, it wasn't terribly uncommon for dates to actually require a chaperone.

Today's culture, on the other hand, is especially dangerous in this regard, as young people are encouraged to dress provocatively and go out and seek sex with random strangers. Most often, they do so under the influence of alcohol or other perception altering substances as well.

That's just a bad combination all the way around, and trying to temper that message of "sexual liberation" with talk of "moderation" and "responsibility" often strikes young and hormonal minds as simply being "mixed messages." This leads to a lot of young and foolish women getting themselves into trouble with the wrong kinds of men.

ChrisL · Feb 18, 2014

NoC_T said:
I think the problem with attributing someone's clothing to personal responsibility, is that there's the cut-off between an acknowledged absolute, as in the case of rape being wrong, and the innumerable variations that clothing can take. If there's any correlation of responsibility, as this suggests, then we'd have an ambiguous scale of criminality. That, wearing one combination of clothing, a woman is somehow more to blame for her attack than if she were wearing another combination. That rape would be either more or less wrong in that regard. That if the more revealing is her clothing, the more culpable she is, then total nudity would be somehow more of a green light than if she were wearing a burka.

The fact that a man might react more strongly to one combination than another, is a matter purely of that man's self-control and morality. We don't hold others responsible for our moral choices. Rape is not self-defence, after all. To claim otherwise is to claim that men are mindless beasts.

Thank you for that wonderful and insightful post NoC_T!

beefheart · Feb 18, 2014

TurtleDude said:
I am just laughing at what appears to be a silly combination of Captain Obvious comments and PC nonsense

I am saddened that you are so emotionally immature.

DVSentinel · Feb 18, 2014

ChrisL said:
CLOTHING has nothing to do with consenting to sex. What don't you get about that?

I get it, but that is not what I'm talking about. That is the part you appear not to get.

Jurors are put in place to judge innocence or guilt. Everything that can be presented is necessary to given those jurors the most accurate picture of what occurred or what didn't. Every detail is potentially important. Without video, then descriptions are used to try to get the juror to visualize the scene and actions in their head. Every detail left out is a hindrance to their ability to do so. Any detail intentionally left out is a miscarriage of justice and any court officer doing so should be charged with obstruction of justice.

Jurors shouldn't judge the woman as giving consent because of the way she dresses. I can agree to that. But the court has the responsibility to give the jurors as accurate a picture as possible.

But it is not just about giving consent, it's about who is telling the truth. How someone presents themselves can speak to their character and is what people most often use as clues to make such judgments about strangers. In a he said/she said scenario, the jury must decide who is lying. If the jury judges the man is lying simply based upon the fact that he is a man accused of rape, isn't that as wrong and a miscarriage of justice as them judging the womans consent by her clothes? I would think more so, since he would then be put in jail and have to register the rest of his life as a sex offender. Which gives a more accurate picture, the staged environment of the court room or the persons dress and appearance at the time of the alleged crime?

TurtleDude · Feb 18, 2014

beefheart said:
I am saddened that you are so emotionally immature.

LOL that is really stupid and not proper here

ChrisL · Feb 18, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
Yes, and dates are a Hell of a lot safer than hanging out with strange men at a bar or nightclub. If for no other reason, this is the case simply because dates don't usually involve copious amounts of alcohol or deliberately sexual clothing or behavior.

Hell, just a few decades before the 1960s, it wasn't terribly uncommon for dates to actually require a chaperone.

Well, I think you should provide links, and even if that's the case, I don't think women want to give up their freedom and go back to the 1950s. Seems like you and a select few others are the only ones who want a time machine. :roll:

Today's culture, on the other hand, is especially dangerous in this regard, as young people are encouraged to dress provocatively and go out and seek sex with random strangers. Most often, they do so under the influence of alcohol or other perception altering substances as well.

That's just a bad combination all the way around, and trying to temper that message of "sexual liberation" with talk of "moderation" and "responsibility" often strikes young and hormonal minds as simply being "mixed messages." This leads to a lot of young and foolish women getting themselves into trouble with the wrong kinds of men.

This is kind of silly. I don't see where anyone is "encouraging" people to be promiscuous nowadays. The "sexual revolution" of the 60s? Well I think that revolution is dead. We try to instill safe sexual habits in our young people, such as NOT sleeping around but IF they do, then practice safe sex.

opendebate · Feb 18, 2014

DVSentinel said:
.........

So giving an accurate account of what was witnessed, including accurate descriptions of dress, have no place in a trial? Everything that tells the jury about the scene and actions of the people involved is not only not irrelevant, it is essential to the jury's ability to make an accurate judgment.

No including how she was dressed or behaved is irrelevant. The implication is that they are somehow indicative of the level of responsibility. They aren't.

It is kind of funny, people are arguing about how the juror may perceive the description of how someone is dressed, but in doing so, they are making an unfounded assumption about the jurors with even less foundation for judgment.

All women who dress provocatively are sluts asking for it. All men and other women think that women who dress provocatively are sluts asking for it. Neither is accurate or correct, but you want to limit what the jury sees based upon the second statement?

They are not arguing about how the juror may perceive the description they are arguing about the legitimacy of including it in deliberations. It is not a factor and should not be considered when evaluating a case.

Or do you simply want more men convicted of rape when charged, regardless of guilt or innocence?

How the woman is dressed or how she acted should is irrelevant and should not be considered when determining his guilt.

herenow1 · Feb 19, 2014

=Gathomas88;1062940010]He is, of course, and I absolutely would tell someone.

It strikes me as being somewhat unlikely that there would be no warning signs ahead of time though.

So you wouldn't take any of the responsibility for letting him spend the night?

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

DVSentinel said:
I get it, but that is not what I'm talking about. That is the part you appear not to get.

Jurors are put in place to judge innocence or guilt. Everything that can be presented is necessary to given those jurors the most accurate picture of what occurred or what didn't. Every detail is potentially important. Without video, then descriptions are used to try to get the juror to visualize the scene and actions in their head. Every detail left out is a hindrance to their ability to do so. Any detail intentionally left out is a miscarriage of justice and any court officer doing so should be charged with obstruction of justice.

Jurors shouldn't judge the woman as giving consent because of the way she dresses. I can agree to that. But the court has the responsibility to give the jurors as accurate a picture as possible.

But it is not just about giving consent, it's about who is telling the truth. How someone presents themselves can speak to their character and is what people most often use as clues to make such judgments about strangers. In a he said/she said scenario, the jury must decide who is lying. If the jury judges the man is lying simply based upon the fact that he is a man accused of rape, isn't that as wrong and a miscarriage of justice as them judging the womans consent by her clothes? I would think more so, since he would then be put in jail and have to register the rest of his life as a sex offender. Which gives a more accurate picture, the staged environment of the court room or the persons dress and appearance at the time of the alleged crime?

I don't believe you. I think it seems like maybe you might judge others in such a manner and that you might even think it's appropriate to make such judgments based upon clothing. You are probably an older man from another generation and just don't understand that women wear what they want to wear nowadays, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
So you wouldn't take any of the responsibility for letting him spend the night?

Lol! And if he was wearing a really tight shirt and tight jeans that were, ahem, accentuating, then he would be enticing the gay man. :2razz:

DVSentinel · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
Yes the culture is changing and is always changing...what was wrong is now right,and what was right is now wrong. Let's make this more relatable to you since most men can't relate to rape or the fear of being raped. Let's say you have a gay buddy, and he is open about it to everyone. Let's say you guys go out to a sports bar and watch a game. You have a beer or two but not enough to get you drunk. Your friend parks his car at your house but doesn't feel like driving home so he asks to stay at your place. You say sure, and you both go to different rooms for the night. Let's say 10 min later he comes to your room and starts putting on the moves and talking about how good you looked tonight. You tell him he needs to back off but b/c he is bigger and stronger than you, he overpowers you! You have just been raped and now you can't tell anyone b/c after all YOU gave him permission to stay at your house and you KNEW that he was gay. Who is to blame in this situation? Were you being irresponsible?

Responsibility won't matter. He better make damned sure I'm dead when he leaves or he won't be the one on trial. I would hunt him down and make every remaining moment of his life a living hell. You don't want a detailed description, but to give you some idea, watch "Princess Bride" and pay attention near the end when he describes "not to the death, to the pain", it will give you some idea.

DVSentinel · Feb 19, 2014

opendebate said:
No including how she was dressed or behaved is irrelevant. The implication is that they are somehow indicative of the level of responsibility. They aren't.

They are not arguing about how the juror may perceive the description they are arguing about the legitimacy of including it in deliberations. It is not a factor and should not be considered when evaluating a case.

How the woman is dressed or how she acted should is irrelevant and should not be considered when determining his guilt.

Read post #330

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

DVSentinel said:
Responsibility won't matter. He better make damned sure I'm dead when he leaves or he won't be the one on trial. I would hunt him down and make every remaining moment of his life a living hell. You don't want a detailed description, but to give you some idea, watch "Princess Bride" and pay attention near the end when he describes "not to the death, to the pain", it will give you some idea.

And that is exactly how women who are raped feel. And then they have to go to a trial and be BLAMED because of how they were dressed.

Gathomas88 · Feb 19, 2014

ChrisL said:
Well, I think you should provide links, and even if that's the case, I don't think women want to give up their freedom and go back to the 1950s. Seems like you and a select few others are the only ones who want a time machine. :roll:

The claim regarding date rape is common sense. There simply wouldn't have been any opportunity for it to really occur prior to the explosion of "bar and club" style sexuality among youth demographics in the latter half of the twentieth century.

I'm also not suggesting that we do go back to the 1950s. I'm suggesting that people behave responsibly and not encourage behavior or attitudes which will simply lead to trouble.

This is kind of silly. I don't see where anyone is "encouraging" people to be promiscuous nowadays.

You're kidding, right? :lol:

A lot of people coming up these days basically think this is how they are expected to act (keep in mind that this is the "PG" trailer as well, the actual movie is about 1000X worse).

Ever seen one of MTV's Spring Break specials?

Trying to interject with something like, "oh, hey, and remember to be safe" in the middle of that simply comes off as being laughably stupid to most young people.

The "sexual revolution" of the 60s? Well I think that revolution is dead. We try to instill safe sexual habits in our young people, such as NOT sleeping around but IF they do, then practice safe sex.

I'm sorry, but this is simply out of touch with basic reality.

Aunt Spiker · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
Yes the culture is changing and is always changing...what was wrong is now right,and what was right is now wrong. Let's make this more relatable to you since most men can't relate to rape or the fear of being raped. Let's say you have a gay buddy, and he is open about it to everyone. Let's say you guys go out to a sports bar and watch a game. You have a beer or two but not enough to get you drunk. Your friend parks his car at your house but doesn't feel like driving home so he asks to stay at your place. You say sure, and you both go to different rooms for the night. Let's say 10 min later he comes to your room and starts putting on the moves and talking about how good you looked tonight. You tell him he needs to back off but b/c he is bigger and stronger than you, he overpowers you! You have just been raped and now you can't tell anyone b/c after all YOU gave him permission to stay at your house and you KNEW that he was gay. Who is to blame in this situation? Were you being irresponsible?

Excellent contrast concept. Seems entirely ABSURD to suggest the victim, here, did anything wrong.

X Factor · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
Actually any man could answer this, not just gath. Btw- I used the gay friend comparison b/c it's equivalent to a female letting a male friend spend the night!

Serious response, I'd rather be beaten to death than have what you describe happen. Maybe I couldn't do anything right at that time, but I sincerely believe that my response would ultimately be a violent one, perhaps a very violent one.

herenow1 · Feb 19, 2014

ChrisL said:
Lol! And if he was wearing a really tight shirt and tight jeans that were, ahem, accentuating, then he would be enticing the gay man. :2razz:

Girl, what if he smelled good AND his clothes matched? It's all over... Lol

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
The claim regarding date rape is common sense. There simply wouldn't have been any opportunity for it to really occur prior to the explosion of "bar and club" style sexuality among youth demographics in the latter half of the twentieth century.

I'm also not suggesting that we do go back to the 1950s. I'm suggesting that people behave responsibly and not encourage behavior or attitudes which will simply lead to trouble.

You're kidding, right? :lol:

A lot of people coming up these days basically think this is how they are expected to act (keep in mind that this is the "PG" trailer as well, the actual movie is about 1000X worse).

Ever seen one of MTV's Spring Break specials?

Trying to interject with something like, "oh, hey, and remember to be safe" in the middle of that simply comes off as being laughably stupid to most young people.

I'm sorry, but this is simply out of touch with basic reality.

That is a movie. I suppose you want censorship too. :roll: We are NOT going back to the 1950s. DEAL.

Look Gathomas, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter how a woman dresses but more on how she behaves. Plenty of women go out wearing sexy clothes and are NOT raped, and plenty of more frumpy-dressing women do get raped, so that standard doesn't hold water.

Gathomas88 · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
So you wouldn't take any of the responsibility for letting him spend the night?

I guess I would. However, given the scenario you provided, I wouldn't have any reason to suspect he might be up to no good in the first place.

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

herenow1 said:
Girl, what if he smelled good AND his clothes matched? It's all over... Lol

Then he'd be FABULOUSLY tempting! :mrgreen:

ChrisL · Feb 19, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
I guess I would. However, given the scenario you provided, I wouldn't have any reason to suspect he might be up to no good in the first place.

Do you think when women go out on dates, they expect to be raped by their date?

herenow1 · Feb 19, 2014

X Factor said:
Serious response, I'd rather be beaten to death than have what you describe happen. Maybe I couldn't do anything right at that time, but I sincerely believe that my response would ultimately be a violent one, perhaps a very violent one.

Thanks for being honest. Being or feeling helpless is not fun, and then to have to second guess everything you did up to that point even when you did nothing wrong is not fun either! I was trying to drive that point home in a way both genders can relate!

Gathomas88 · Feb 19, 2014

ChrisL said:
That is a movie.

It is our current culture, which is exactly what most young people base their ideas of "acceptable behavior" off of. :roll:

The simple fact of the matter is that restraint, safety, and personal responsibility really aren't ideas that are in vogue right now. What young people are most often encouraged to live is a modern re-enactment of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I suppose you want censorship too. :roll: We are NOT going back to the 1950s. DEAL.

I never said that we should. I said that our culture has a very flawed way at looking at sexuality among young people, and that this can have a tendency to exacerbate problems like date rape.

Look Gathomas, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter how a woman dresses but more on how she behaves. Plenty of women go out wearing sexy clothes and are NOT raped, and plenty of more frumpy-dressing women do get raped, so that standard doesn't hold water.

Again, Chris, clothing and behavior can be, and often are contributing factors to the circumstances leading up to sexual assaults and date rape.

If women want to be safe, they have to acknowledge this reality, and plan accordingly.

Quibbling around with "blame games" isn't productive. The simple fact of the matter is that a young woman out on the town needs to be in control of her behavior and take precautions to ensure her own safety.

DVSentinel · Feb 19, 2014

ChrisL said:
And that is exactly how women who are raped feel. And then they have to go to a trial and be BLAMED because of how they were dressed.

Then they should do it. Hell, I wouldn't convict them if I was on the jury and that is why she did it. If women started tying rapist to chairs and feeding them their genitals that the woman just cut off, there would be a lot less rapist in the world. If she needs to learn how to get them into the chair, Dexter and lots of movies give really good workable solutions.

Rape and Clothing

Rape and clothing correlation

I suspect women are wearing revealing clothes in most rape cases

I suspect that a man/woman will rape regardless of the victims clothing

I think some women are inviting dangerous attention when wearing revealing attire

I don't think clothes have anything to do with rape

Other

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NoC_T

Imposition of miscellany

Gathomas88

ChrisL

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?

DVSentinel

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

ChrisL

opendebate

herenow1

ChrisL

ChrisL

DVSentinel

DVSentinel

ChrisL

Gathomas88

Aunt Spiker

Cheese

X Factor

Anti-Socialist

herenow1

ChrisL

Gathomas88

ChrisL

ChrisL

herenow1

Gathomas88

DVSentinel

Rape and Clothing

Rape and clothing correlation

I suspect women are wearing revealing clothes in most rape cases

I suspect that a man/woman will rape regardless of the victims clothing

I think some women are inviting dangerous attention when wearing revealing attire

I don't think clothes have anything to do with rape

Other

Imposition of miscellany

Ice Cream for Crow?

warrior of the wetlands

Cheese

Anti-Socialist

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency