Rand Paul: Nutcase; Why the Libertarians are Going Nowhere

[Fishking]

The father of US Libertarians is Ron Paul who was a lifelong politician who used the US military to pay for his medical degree. Yea it is nonsense

Is there a point you're trying to make here?

 

[Fishking]

I would rather have an an oppressive system that enforces the aspect of people's civil rights. The oppressive system that is free enough to allow widespread oppression gays, women, people of color, etc. will result in chaos and mayhem...

Haha...that's hilarious. You want an oppressive government over a free society that has large economic avenues for innovations that would easily fill any gaps you're whining about.

 

[Fishking]

Those are not the only two choices.

And yes, a primary aspect of Libertarianism is spending most of the time condemning liberals, just like Republicans do. Basically a distinction without a difference between the two, other than the Libertarians being more extreme.

And Libertarians do indeed act and argue and present as if everything would be just hunky-dory if only people would understand just how pleasant ot would be to be "free" under their UTOPIAN, Randian vision.

Nope....no Libertarian thinks it will be perfect or Utopia, just freer.

 

[Fishking]

So do you think, like Rand Paul, that business owners should have the right to refuse service to blacks?
Do you believe that public schools should basically be vanished and that people should then band together to establish and fund schools on their own ans screw those who can't afford it? I know Libs who do.

I think a private institution should be able to run their business how they feel, just like people should be able to act in their own homes. I'm not full Libertarian, so I don't go for all of their ideas 100%, so I wouldn't ditch public schools but I'd have a 100% school voucher program so parents could send their kids to well-run charter schools (no, not all are well run so I'm not talking about the crappy ones).

 

[Dans La Lune]

There's a reason no society has ever adopted libertarianism as a governing philosophy.

 

[Dans La Lune]

At least some right-libertarians are anti-war!

A broken clock is right twice a day. Libertarians don't believe in non-intervention because they care about the people caught in the war.

 

[Fishking]

In the jungle everyone is left alone and completely free. Doesn’t work out so well. Only the strong live, and if you ever find yourself even a little bit in a position of weakness and vulnerability, you will be eaten for lunch. Concepts of fairness and justice or any other nonsense which sissy modern civil societies want and have come to accept do not exist.

1. Libertarianism =/= no government.

2. In the jungle, there is still tribal dynamics that present situations that are also usually fairly oppressive. Smaller groups can be oppressive too.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Nope....no Libertarian thinks it will be perfect or Utopia, just freer.

Except it wouldn't be freer, because the poor would have no access to anything, and the rich would run roughshod over society. Basically you have the freedom to die in a ditch if you lack healthcare.

 

[watsup]

Nope....no Libertarian thinks it will be perfect or Utopia, just freer.

I have plenty of freedom. What freedoms are you missing?

 

[Antiwar]

A broken clock is right twice a day. Libertarians don't believe in non-intervention because they care about the people caught in the war.

Most Congresscritters vote to fund US militarism and voted for the AUMF.

 

[aociswundumho]

Rand Paul's 5 most controversial beliefs

Kentucky Tea Party candidate Rand Paul has been criticized for his take on the Civil Rights Act. But that's not the only provocative position he's taken

theweek.com

Why is this one controversial":

1. Government shouldn't require private businesses to serve customers of all races
"I don’t like the idea of telling private business owners — I abhor racism.

This is basic freedom of association. None of you "progressives" support anti discrimination laws when it comes to dating, sex, marriage, friendship, etc? Stop clutching your pearls and just extend freedom of association to business relationships. It's really not that radical.

 

[watsup]

I think a private institution should be able to run their business how they feel, just like people should be able to act in their own homes. I'm not full Libertarian, so I don't go for all of their ideas 100%, so I wouldn't ditch public schools but I'd have a 100% school voucher program so parents could send their kids to well-run charter schools (no, not all are well run so I'm not talking about the crappy ones).

Okay. So it is okay with you if businesses refuse service to blacks. Just proves the point in my OP about Libertarianism going nowhere fast.

 

[Antiwar]

For some reason I thought this was about Ron Paul.

Rand tested positive for Covid-19 then proceeded to take a swim in the elitist gym pool. What an asshole.

 

[watsup]

1. Libertarianism =/= no government.

2. In the jungle, there is still tribal dynamics that present situations that are also usually fairly oppressive. Smaller groups can be oppressive too.

So much oppression in the Libertarian worldview.
It’s why I say they should each go live on a desert island by themselves so that they would have no one to oppress them. Poor babies.

 

[Chillfolks]

Libertarians are far from perfect, they are just magnitudes better than most Democrats.

 

[watsup]

Why is this one controversial":



This is basic freedom of association. None of you "progressives" support anti discrimination laws when it comes to dating, sex, marriage, friendship, etc? Stop clutching your pearls and just extend freedom of association to business relationships. It's really not that radical.

And yet another Lib who would allow businesses to deny service to blacks. This is why I call the Libloons.

 

[watsup]

Libertarians are far from perfect, they are just magnitudes better than most Democrats.

Why?

 

[Fishking]

Except it wouldn't be freer, because the poor would have no access to anything, and the rich would run roughshod over society. Basically you have the freedom to die in a ditch if you lack healthcare.

The poor could actually gain access as products would be cheaper without all the crony capitalism going on, like how our system of regulations somehow always end up helping the biggest companies.

For example, there was a controversy years ago regarding led paint being found in toys that were purchased at big box stores that get their products made in China. There was then a push to make all things made for children be tested for led content. Well, she was into the small at-home businesses run by moms across the nation scene at the time and they were all freaking out because there'd be no way they could afford to do that. Only very large companies that can order bulk testing could. So the beneficiaries would be the people who caused the problem in the first place, while those who use more natural and purer products would be shut down.

 

[Fishking]

So much oppression in the Libertarian worldview.
It’s why I say they should each go live on a desert island by themselves so that they would have no one to oppress them. Poor babies.

Dismissed as the invalid response that it is.

 

[Jean-s]

So much oppression in the Libertarian worldview.
It’s why I say they should each go live on a desert island by themselves so that they would have no one to oppress them. Poor babies.

Libertarians can be ignored because the USA is a two-party country; the right wing capitalist Democrats and the very right wing Republicans.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Fred Koch was a libertarian with Fascist tendencies so it goes who also made sure Stalin had gas refinery........ now we have Charles Koch as two of the brothers bailed and one passed away.

I have watched candidates come forth running as libertarians yet didn't get squat number of votes ...... same for fundamentalists.

American Legislative Exchange Council and Democratic Leadership council are KOCH inspired and funded primarily through Koch dollars no matter what ID is attached as KOCH dollars funds many organizations.

Here comes ALEC bringing Ageis Strategic with it ...... definitely libertarian with a fascist bent........

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/al...te-special-interests-state-legislatures#Voter

United States of ALEC

The United States of ALEC: Bill Moyers on the Secretive Corporate-Legislative Body Writing Our Laws

Democracy Now! premieres “The United States of ALEC,” a special report by legendary journalist Bill Moyers on how the secretive American Legislative Exchange Council has helped corporate America propose and even draft legislation for states across the country. ALEC brings together major U.S...

www.democracynow.org

ALEC Teams Up With The Religious Right = Sick

Secrets of the extreme religious right: Inside the frightening world of Christian Reconstructionism - Salon.com

The zealots pushing a horrifying vision of "religious freedom" really have in mind a new biblical slavery

www.salon.com

Meet the American Legislative Exchange Council Boot Camp Team:

Koch-linked political firm aims to handpick "electable" candidates

Meet Aegis Strategic, the latest affiliate of the Koch brothers’ political empire.

www.motherjones.com

The Koch Brothers weren't libertarians, they were neocons masquerading as libertarians.

 

[bomberfox]

i left libertarianism a while ago but my choice was reinforced by ron paul retweeting explicit nazi propaganda.

 

[Chillfolks]

Why?

Because for the most part their philosophy tends to error on the side of personal freedom, unlike democrats or Republicans more more that tend to be more restrictive on personal freedoms.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

I would rather have an an oppressive system that enforces the aspect of people's civil rights. The oppressive system that is free enough to allow widespread oppression gays, women, people of color, etc. will result in chaos and mayhem...

You think oppressing people's ability to claim their own individual civil rights outside of the often-racist, sexist, bigoted etc. machinery of the state is any different than the often-racist, sexist, bigoted etc. machinery of the state itself?

Deliberately crushing civil rights movements simply because they are not state-sanctioned actually prevents the civil rights problem you are trying to solve from being solved, because you're effectively arguing against harm-reduction to satiate your pro-state ideology. Anyway, if this topic isn't actually about Rand Paul - like it is being falsely-advertised, and is essentially an Anti-Libertarian hatespam thread, it should be flushed.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Hell, here's the Libertarian Party's tax policy:



When you pay taxes, do you do so voluntarily? Or do you do so because you are forced to do so? If you don’t pay your taxes, what will happen? Will you be fined further? Harassed by the IRS or other government entities? Jailed? The Libertarian Party is fundamentally opposed to the use of force to coerce people into doing anything. We think it is inherently wrong and should have no role in a civilized society. Thus we think that government forcing people to pay taxes is inherently wrong.

Libertarians advocate for voluntary exchange, where people are free to make their own choices about what to do with their lives, their time, their bodies, their livelihood, and their dollars. If Americans want to give money to the government for one reason or another, they should be free to do so. If Americans prefer to spend their money on other things, then they should be free to do that also.

Taxes - Libertarian Party

Dear Libertarian, When you look at your tax bill, do you feel like a slave to the IRS? Republicans like to talk a good game about tax reform and fiscal responsibility but they are not committed to it. They have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency and if they wanted bold reform, they...

www.lp.org

How clueless does a person have to be to think America could function as a country united under a federal government if the only way government can get money is from Americans who "want to give money to the government for one reason or another"? Very little would give and there would be no way to plan for the future.

​

Aside.​

You'll note this goes farther than the usual suggestion of these folks, which is that sales taxes and the like would be enough. (They usually frame it as "voluntary" taxation, but that's moronic. A voluntary sales tax would be: cashier rings you up, you are prompted to say whether or not you would like to pay the tax. Instead, it's just as involuntary as income tax: sure, the action that triggers the tax is voluntary - working (income tax) or buying (sales tax))​

​

At any rate, just think about what passing that tax platform would mean. More or less immediately, the federal government would become insolvent and collapse. Nobody is going to lend to a country that has just done away with its ability to raise revenue. Do they expect all federal workers to just sort of volunteer or something? Manufacturers to donate needed supplies? Lunacy.





The best thing one can say about a Libertarian candidate is that they probably wouldn't get their way since congress would never do something that catastrophically stupid, even though it may be congress.

Extreme libertarianism is as stupid as extreme progressivism. Extremes are stupid.

Rational moderate libertarian ideas are a good balance for rational moderate progressive ideas.

The libertarian emphasis on individual freedom is important, and is the foundation of our society. It is very easy to lose our freedom, and we are losing it as I write.

The extreme progressive view says we should trust smart experts to run our lives. Moderate libertarians say no one is that smart, and even if they were no thanks we can run our own lives.

Extreme libertarians say free markets can be trusted to make everything nice and fair. Moderate progressives say there are times when markets need to be controlled.

Balance is everything. Extremists are never rational. Of course, extremists don't think they are extremists. But you can always spot them by their certainty that they are right and the other side is wrong.