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Question to Christians about Heaven

Kali

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I wish for Christians here to tell me what they think will happen when they go to Heaven in reguards to loved ones. Do you feel you will meet up with all your loved ones, family and friends? What about your spouse? Will you meet up with them and still be like married? Will you recognize your mother or father as your parents, etc. after you get to Heaven?

The reason I am asking this is because I was talking with a Christian friend of mine tonight and was telling him I am pretty sure in the Bible it says something along the lines of you will not know them as you know them on Earth and he said I am wrong and that you will know them.

I then asked him if you meet back up with your spouses then what happens if you been married several times? Will you be paired again with your very first one or how will that work? He really had no answer for me. I mean the bible is not fond of divorce anyways? But I was trying to tell him that if there is a god, a heaven and the holy book he lives by is true then you will not really "know" your loved ones as what they were on Earth?
 
There is no clear cut verse that actually comes right out and say's yes you will. But there are scriptural hints that we will recognize each other.

Also sad to say that there is no guarentee that your loved ones will be in heaven. This causes some denominations to teach a kind of memory wipe based on " all things will be made new" in an attempt to explain that there will be no sorrow for loved ones who are not in heaven.

Also even the idea that people even go to heaven is a debatable point.

Moe
 
Only marriage in Heaven is the one between Christ and His Bride - The Church (all those written in the Book of Life).

Luke 20:35

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage
 
Thanks. Can you answer in reguards to will you know your loved ones as they are on Earth?
 
There is no clear cut verse that actually comes right out and say's yes you will. But there are scriptural hints that we will recognize each other.

Also sad to say that there is no guarentee that your loved ones will be in heaven. This causes some denominations to teach a kind of memory wipe based on " all things will be made new" in an attempt to explain that there will be no sorrow for loved ones who are not in heaven.

Also even the idea that people even go to heaven is a debatable point.

Moe

Moe, based on my understanding of the Bible there will be no sorrow or pain at all in heaven and just everybody happy and loving? Kind of like you will only have positive emotions and nothing negative?
 
Moe, based on my understanding of the Bible there will be no sorrow or pain at all in heaven and just everybody happy and loving? Kind of like you will only have positive emotions and nothing negative?

No sorrow or pain here on earth Actually a new earth. man was made to live on earth. Do you have a bible handy? Read Revelations 20 and 21. They are the 2 very last chapters in the bible. It clearly explains where we will be in eternity and it is not in heaven.

If you do not have a bible and want to discuss this just let me know:2wave:

Moe
 
Only marriage in Heaven is the one between Christ and His Bride - The Church (all those written in the Book of Life).

Yes, this is correct. The Bride is the church, all of us who are saved and who will get our glorified bodies at the rapture. And the people left behind in the tribulation will have to die for Christ instead of worship the AntiChrist and take the mark that will have you deny Christ to fit in with the world.

1 Thessalonians 4

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Jesus says there will be NO marriage between us in heaven.

Matthew 22:30:

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:25:

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

But, I don't think we will need marriage. We will just love everyone, probably more than we ever could in our fallen state.
 
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Moe, based on my understanding of the Bible there will be no sorrow or pain at all in heaven and just everybody happy and loving? Kind of like you will only have positive emotions and nothing negative?

Yes, this is true. ALL negative emotions and sickness and everything horrible like that comes from Satan and sin. No, you don't need to have your head spinning around to be influenced by demons. That is deception, and no we can't fight them with crosses or holy water or anything like that. You can only get true peace from studying God's Word, and trusting the God of the Bible to handle things according to HIS will.

He doesn't even want us to be stressed, we do that to ourselves by not trusting him and worrying.

So yes, when he gets rid of sin and evil, all of the sorrow and negativity will go with it.

And yes, Moe is right, the raptured will be in heaven safe from the tribulation, but then we will return to Earth with Christ.
 
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I wish for Christians here to tell me what they think will happen when they go to Heaven in reguards to loved ones. Do you feel you will meet up with all your loved ones, family and friends? What about your spouse? Will you meet up with them and still be like married? Will you recognize your mother or father as your parents, etc. after you get to Heaven?

The reason I am asking this is because I was talking with a Christian friend of mine tonight and was telling him I am pretty sure in the Bible it says something along the lines of you will not know them as you know them on Earth and he said I am wrong and that you will know them.

I then asked him if you meet back up with your spouses then what happens if you been married several times? Will you be paired again with your very first one or how will that work? He really had no answer for me. I mean the bible is not fond of divorce anyways? But I was trying to tell him that if there is a god, a heaven and the holy book he lives by is true then you will not really "know" your loved ones as what they were on Earth?[/QUOT

Will There be Marriage in Heaven?
 
Sister I never mentioned the rapture and I do not believe in a pretribulation rapture

Moe

Oh, sorry, I meant you were right that we are meant to live on Earth. :2wave:

And before anyone asks there are different beliefs about the Rapture and it is not a salvation issue. You don't have to believe in the rapture to be saved. I just brought it up when woguy mentioned the Bride of Christ, and according to pre-trib, that is when we will be in heaven so to me it fit with the thread. :). Everyone would need to study the Bible and figure out their own opinion on the rapture, and at the trib, we'll find out who is right. :)

btw, Moe, just out of curiousity, are you mid-trib or Post? Do you believe in the Millinial Kingdom? Don't want to debate it or anything, just wondering your thoughts. :)
 
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Oh, sorry, I meant you were right that we are meant to live on Earth.

And before anyone asks there are different beliefs about the Rapture and it is not a salvation issue. You don't have to believe in the rapture to be saved. I just brought it up when woguy mentioned the Bride of Christ, and according to pre-trib, that is when we will be in heaven so to me it fit with the thread. :). Everyone would need to study the Bible and figure out their own opinion on the rapture, and at the trib, we'll find out who is right. :)

btw, Moe, just out of curiousity, are you mid-trib or Post? Do you believe in the Millinial Kingdom? Don't want to debate it or anything, just wondering your thoughts. :)

Post trib. And that does exclude the church being the bride of Christ. I do believe it is. The 1000 year reign is post trib also so yes I believe in that to:2wave:

Sure we can talk about it if you want. But be advised that I used to be a pre trib believer. I used to be involved in the Charismatic church and then Baptist and now.... Well I guess as far church's and denominations go I am Gods little orphan:mrgreen:

Moe
 
No sorrow or pain here on earth Actually a new earth. man was made to live on earth. Do you have a bible handy? Read Revelations 20 and 21. They are the 2 very last chapters in the bible. It clearly explains where we will be in eternity and it is not in heaven.

If you do not have a bible and want to discuss this just let me know:2wave:

Moe

I have a Bible and have read it. You confuse me because I am pretty sure that after the Rapture that everyone who was saved goes to Heaven? Are you talking about the meek shall inherit the Earth? I mean the Bible as I read it says that those saved will go to Heaven and those not go to hell? What you are talking about reminds me of the way the jehovah witness take the bible. Are you a Jehovah Witness?
 
Yes, this is true. ALL negative emotions and sickness and everything horrible like that comes from Satan and sin. No, you don't need to have your head spinning around to be influenced by demons. That is deception, and no we can't fight them with crosses or holy water or anything like that. You can only get true peace from studying God's Word, and trusting the God of the Bible to handle things according to HIS will.

He doesn't even want us to be stressed, we do that to ourselves by not trusting him and worrying.

So yes, when he gets rid of sin and evil, all of the sorrow and negativity will go with it.

And yes, Moe is right, the raptured will be in heaven safe from the tribulation, but then we will return to Earth with Christ.

Southern Belle, I am confused now cause I was raised a Southern Baptist and they did not teach anything about all humans will return to Earth. They taught you need to get right with the Lord to get into Heaven. If everyone will simply end up back on Earth what is exactly the point of Heaven? I don't get it:shock:

Belle, I should tell you that even though I was raised up (aka forced) in a Southern Baptist Church? I am now Pagan.
 
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I wish for Christians here to tell me what they think will happen when they go to Heaven in reguards to loved ones. Do you feel you will meet up with all your loved ones, family and friends? What about your spouse? Will you meet up with them and still be like married? Will you recognize your mother or father as your parents, etc. after you get to Heaven?

What if they don't want to be with you?
It wouldn't be "heaven" for them if they had to spend it with people they didn't want to be around.

What if a widowed woman remarried, but each of her husbands wanted to be with her in heaven? But they didn't want to be around each other, making "heaven" a sort of hell for them both (and maybe the poor woman, as well).

The LDS has a good solution to this: first marriages are "for time and eternity". All subsequent marriages are only "for time" (ie, mortal time).
But even so, what if two people, both widowed, married each other, and ended up loving each other far more than they had ever loved their respective first spouses? In the afterlife, they'd still have to separate and go back to their original partners.
That wouldn't be "heaven". They wouldn't be happy.
 
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Southern Belle, I am confused now cause I was raised a Southern Baptist and they did not teach anything about all humans will return to Earth. They taught you need to get right with the Lord to get into Heaven. If everyone will simply end up back on Earth what is exactly the point of Heaven? I don't get it:shock:

Belle, I should tell you that even though I was raised up (aka forced) in a Southern Baptist Church? I am now Pagan.

Yes, not even all Baptist churches teach the same stuff. :( Actually, I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church, and they taught about the pretrib Rapture. I guess I wasn't forced because I truly loved the Bible and church since I was little. And I've recently realised how right it all is and how blessed I am.

Anyway, yes, according to my old church, the Bride will be raptured, and hidden in heaven before the Tribulation. After the trib, we will come back to the earth with Christ, and we will watch what he does to the enemies of Israel. Then Christ will reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years to show the world a perfect theocracy. The Bride and Trib saints will help him reign, it really says that in Revelation. During this time Satan will be bound somewhere. At the end of 1,000 years, Satan will be loosed and humankind will be given a final choice, and no one will have an excuse because they will see what it's like with Jesus, and if Satan can still talk you away from actually living with Jesus, oh man! :shock: But it happened to Adam and Eve, so...:shrug:

And I have considered all 3 Rapture positions, and according to how things happened in the Bible, and Jesus, pretrib makes the most sense to me. :2wave:
 
There is no gender, race, etc in Heaven

Close your eyes and imagine
 
After the trib, we will come back to the earth with Christ, and we will watch what he does to the enemies of Israel.

Hard to imagine he "doing" anything to them, really.
What's he gonna do, exchange beard-hygiene tips with them?

:shrug:
 
Hard to imagine he "doing" anything to them, really.
What's he gonna do, exchange beard-hygiene tips with them?

:shrug:

I honestly can't remember this second, but I THINK he'll just speak and something happens, or he distroys them with his Glory. He does something because it says we come back as his army, but it doesn't say we fight. But he will punish the enemies of Israel. I just heard a preacher talk about this very thing the other day and I can't remember what he does. :/ This will be during or at the end of Armaggeddon, a huge war agaist Israel and the world's army, I think.
 
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I have a Bible and have read it. You confuse me because I am pretty sure that after the Rapture that everyone who was saved goes to Heaven? Are you talking about the meek shall inherit the Earth? I mean the Bible as I read it says that those saved will go to Heaven and those not go to hell? What you are talking about reminds me of the way the jehovah witness take the bible. Are you a Jehovah Witness?

LOL No I am not a Jehovah Witness. Southern Bell asked if we could discuss my views on the rapture and now you have brought it up so I may as well just give a combined post on my Biblical views. This is strictly just my opinion. Not saying that this is the way it is I am just saying this is the way I believe it is.

Do the righteous dead go up to heaven?

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
of Biblical Theology

Abraham’s Bosom - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology

Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death (Luke 16:19-31). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

In the gospel of Luke Jesus says to the thief on the cross,

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Not heaven. Paradise is a compartment of the Jewish Sheol. One side is hell and the other side is paradise. This is described in Luke.

Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot *; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Now lets look at something Peter wrote.

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is another one of those verses that are in dispute. Christian theology claims that there is no salvation for the dead. So some say that the spirits that Christ actually preached to are angels. But either way this is supposedly the point where all of a sudden believers started going to heaven instead of to paradise. But then the bible throws another kink into the teachings of the church. Paradise is again mentioned in Revelation.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So here we have the last living apostle still talking about paradise in the last written book of the bible. So how do we deal with this problem? Simple. Move paradise to heaven.
Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

In fact, Jesus actually took the "location" called paradise and all the saints dwelling there, to the third heaven.

It is therefore significant that whereas, Jesus speaks of "paradise" being in the earth (hades), which we know by comparing Luke 16:22-23; 23:43 and Ephesians 4:9, Paul speaks of "paradise" being in the 3rd heaven at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

There is much more that can be said on this showing the verses that the church's use that they claim support the belief that believers now go to heaven but you really have to engage in a taffy pull for all the verses used and jump to conclusions that the some of the verses do not even provide support for. There is no doubt at least scripturally that the soul survives the body and goes someplace. The bible confirms that the soul of the believer goes to be with the Lord. But considering that the lord has the ability to be in all places at the same time to say that Jesus is in heaven so all believers must be in heaven is not really taking all the evidence and possibilities into consideration.

But where ever they are they are still in the presence of the lord and they are not sad burdened or worried.

Ok now the rapture.

The original church never taught a pre or mid tribulation rapture in fact the doctrine is only a couple of hundred years old.

The Dispensational Origins of Modern Premillennialism and John Nelson Darby
The doctrine of a secret rapture was first conceived by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in 1827. Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, invented the doctrine claiming there were not one, but two "second comings." This teaching was immediately challenged as unbiblical by other members of the Brethren. Samuel P. Tregelles, a noted biblical scholar, rejected Darby's new interpretation as the "height of speculative nonsense." So tenuous was Darby's rapture theory that he had lingering doubts about it as late as 1843, and possibly 1845. Another member of the Plymouth Brethren, B.W. Newton, disputed Darby's new doctrine claiming such a conclusion was only possible if one declared certain passages to be "renounced as not properly ours

Long before I had heard of this I still could not see how the verses the Pre and Mid tribs used to support their rapture doctrines really fit what they were trying to insist was true. You really have to make some stretches to even come close to making them work

For instance from revelation,

Re 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter .

Many rapture believers claim that this verse is proof of pre mid trib rapture. You really have to do a taffy pull on this and even then it does not work. The belief is that the first 3 chapters deal with the church. 4:1 then is symbolic of the church being removed to avoid the tribulation. Even though 4:2 clearly states.

Re 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John clearly uses I in the singular form claiming that the invitation was given to him alone to receive the rest of the prophecies. There is no collective we or any such thing.

Here is a another revelation verse that is used.

Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

If this true then the number of people taken up in the rapture world wide is less than the population of a small city say like Topeka Kansas.

Also many people get dizzy reading revelation because so much of it is prophetic symbology and it seems to jump forward in time and then back again. It is my personal view that John may have been seeing things happening in the same manner as God sees them. Past present and future all at the same time. No biblical support for that. Just my personal thought.

Now the famous Thessalonians verses,

1th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again there is a problem here. One, it is not a quite approach. It is an announcement heralded by an Arch Angel. Two, The dead in Christ rise first. If the dead believers are already in heaven then why do they need to meet Jesus in the air? Why are they rising rather than descending? One of the explanations I heard for this while in the church was that they were receiving their glorified spiritual bodies. But there is scriptural problem with that to because the very same Paul who wrote the above verses also wrote,

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And the dead shall be raised incorruptible? If the dead are in heaven and have not yet received their incorruptible bodies then they are still corrupt. How can something that is corrupt enter Heaven? What Paul is speaking of here is not a pretrib rapture but the resurrection itself at the end of the tribulation period

.Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The first resurrection of the dead does not happen until after {/I] the tribulation and the beginning of the millennial kingdom. Thus why I do not believe in the Pre or Mid Tribulation Raptures.

Moe
 
Thank you, Moe, and I can see where you are coming from. :) As for my thoughts on Pretrib:

God ALWAYS got the few righteous believers safely out of the way before he did his wrath. His wrath is all the supernatual plauges and fireballs and stuff he did when he got angry. Even when he forbade a whole generation of Israelites from going to the promised land, Joshua and Caleb were the only 2 in that group that were still faithful to him, and he said they could see the promised land and they did.

He even spared this one woman, and I can't remember her name right now, from Jerico, because she was kind to those two guys and she believed in the Lord and they let her go live with the Israelites.

The NT promises that we too, are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If the whole earth is full of Godless people and laws, the only place for the saved to go is up.

Yes, some people were raptured in the Bible, so we know it can be done. Enoch was one of the first people in Genesis and he was so perfect in God's sight that he was raptured. Believing in Jesus's sacrifice purifies us in God's sight.

Why would God spare all of the righteous in the OT and then put the Bride who believed without seeing, through the wrath that literally distroys the entire world? That just doesn't sound like him and it doesn't make sense. The trib is to punish unbelievers and also to give them a small taste of a world without God. Which is what they want so much. The Bride doesn't want that.

Ezekiel 30:3:

3For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

2 Peter 3:10:

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Sure, I believe the Bride does have to suffer persecution and trials in their lives, but I think by the time it's time for the Trib and the wrath, those who are still alive will be raptured.

Titus 2

1But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

7In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Look at that context. Paul is preaching a sermon on how Christians should behave. There is nothing about the trib in there. There is no verses talking about the rapture and the trib at the same time. The Bride is not supposed to worry about the trib.
 
God ALWAYS got the few righteous believers safely out of the way before he did his wrath. His wrath is all the supernatual plauges and fireballs and stuff he did when he got angry. Even when he forbade a whole generation of Israelites from going to the promised land, Joshua and Caleb were the only 2 in that group that were still faithful to him, and he said they could see the promised land and they did.

More proper to say that Gods wrath never falls on his people and yes this true. But what else is true is he never spared his people from persecution.

Consider that for 120 years Noah was mocked scorned and ridiculed as he built the Ark and preached the coming destruction

Consider that all though Goshen was spared the 10 plagues the Egyptian task masters took out their anger and frustration on the Israelites.

Ex 5:17 But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the LORD.
Ex 5:18 Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks.
Ex 5:19 And the officers of the children of Israel did see that they were in evil case, after it was said, Ye shall not minish ought from your bricks of your daily task.
Ex 5:20 And they met Moses and Aaron, who stood in the way, as they came forth from Pharaoh:
Ex 5:21 And they said unto them, The LORD look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
Ex 5:22 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me?
Ex 5:23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.

Although Joshua and Caleb were spared Gods wrath and did not perish in the wilderness yet still they to were in the wilderness for 40 years and suffered all the hardships that the rest of the people faced.

Nu 26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
He even spared this one woman, and I can't remember her name right now, from Jerico, because she was kind to those two guys and she believed in the Lord and they let her go live with the Israelites.

her name was Rahab.

Jos 2:1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of ****tim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house *, named Rahab, and lodged there.

She later married into the tribe of Judah and is the great great etc Grand Mother of Jesus.

Mt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

During the conquest of Jericho she was not removed before the attack. She remained in the city until it was over.
The NT promises that we too, are not appointed to wrath.

We are not appointed unto Gods wrath. But to Satan's wrath we have been exposed for 2,000 years. Since 1900 until today more Christians have been martyred for their faith than in all the previous 19 centuries combined.

Christian Persecution Blog - a weblog about persecuted Christians and the persecuted church
"Over 200 million Christians worldwide suffer interrogation, arrest, and even death for their faith in Jesus Christ, with another 200 to 400 million facing discrimination and alienation," according to Open Doors, a faith-based mission supporting persecuted Christian believers.

The Voice of the Martyrs, another such group, says "more Christians have died for their faith in Christ in the past 100 years than in all of history prior to that."

Where was the rapture for these brothers and sisters? If these people who have suffered even losing their very lives for the faith were not raptured then why would you think that God would spare a pampered church that thinks they should be healthy wealthy and happy 24/7 from persecution?




If the whole earth is full of Godless people and laws, the only place for the saved to go is up.

On the contrary. The best place for them is right here.

Lu 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Yes, some people were raptured in the Bible, so we know it can be done. Enoch was one of the first people in Genesis and he was so perfect in God's sight that he was raptured. Believing in Jesus's sacrifice purifies us in God's sight.

Enoch and Elijah. We do not know what the ministry of Enoch consisted of but he lived just before the flood when things were getting pretty bad. Elijah we know suffered many hardships. We also know that Elijah was reborn as John the Baptist and suffered a martyrs death at the hands of Herod.

Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Why would God spare all of the righteous in the OT and then put the Bride who believed without seeing, through the wrath that literally distroys the entire world? That just doesn't sound like him and it doesn't make sense. The trib is to punish unbelievers and also to give them a small taste of a world without God. Which is what they want so much. The Bride doesn't want that.

Again God only spared them from his own wrath. Not the wrath of Satan.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins ; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:



Sure, I believe the Bride does have to suffer persecution and trials in their lives, but I think by the time it's time for the Trib and the wrath, those who are still alive will be raptured.

I believe the tribulation period has already begun. many of the Revelation prophecies are well underway to fulfillment and we are not yet raptured.


Look at that context. Paul is preaching a sermon on how Christians should behave. There is nothing about the trib in there. There is no verses talking about the rapture and the trib at the same time. The Bride is not supposed to worry about the trib.

Correct. That is because Rapture or No Rapture we are supposed to going about the fathers business. Not looking up into the sky.

Moe
 
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More proper to say that Gods wrath never falls on his people and yes this true. But what else is true is he never spared his people from persecution.

Consider that for 120 years Noah was mocked scorned and ridiculed as he built the Ark and preached the coming destruction

Consider that all though Goshen was spared the 10 plagues the Egyptian task masters took out their anger and frustration on the Israelites.

Ex 5:17 But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the LORD.
Ex 5:18 Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks.
Ex 5:19 And the officers of the children of Israel did see that they were in evil case, after it was said, Ye shall not minish ought from your bricks of your daily task.
Ex 5:20 And they met Moses and Aaron, who stood in the way, as they came forth from Pharaoh:
Ex 5:21 And they said unto them, The LORD look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us.
Ex 5:22 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me?
Ex 5:23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.

Although Joshua and Caleb were spared Gods wrath and did not perish in the wilderness yet still they to were in the wilderness for 40 years and suffered all the hardships that the rest of the people faced.

Nu 26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.


her name was Rahab.

Jos 2:1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of ****tim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house *, named Rahab, and lodged there.

She later married into the tribe of Judah and is the great great etc Grand Mother of Jesus.

Mt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

During the conquest of Jericho she was not removed before the attack. She remained in the city until it was over.


We are not appointed unto Gods wrath. But to Satan's wrath we have been exposed for 2,000 years. Since 1900 until today more Christians have been martyred for their faith than in all the previous 19 centuries combined.



Where was the rapture for these brothers and sisters? If these people who have suffered even losing their very lives for the faith were not raptured then why would you think that God would spare a pampered church that thinks they should be healthy wealthy and happy 24/7 from persecution?






On the contrary. The best place for them is right here.

Lu 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.


Enoch and Elijah. We do not know what the ministry of Enoch consisted of but he lived just before the flood when things were getting pretty bad. Elijah we know suffered many hardships. We also know that Elijah was reborn as John the Baptist and suffered a martyrs death at the hands of Herod.

Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Again God only spared them from his own wrath. Not the wrath of Satan.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins ; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:





I believe the tribulation period has already begun. many of the Revelation prophecies are well underway to fulfillment and we are not yet raptured.




Correct. That is because Rapture or No Rapture we are supposed to going about the fathers business. Not looking up into the sky.

Moe

I think you and I are simply disagreeing on what we believe God will put the Bride through. I do not believe he will put a generation of believers through the Day of the LORD or just hand them over to Satan in the flesh. Since we ALREADY believe in Jesus, there would be no logical reason. The Day of the LORD is for non-believers.

Rahab, thank you. She was hidden in her house marked with a ribbon. She was not harmed and her house was spared.

I think you and I are both seeing the signs, and Jesus said:

Luke 21:28:

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So he DID say look up. But that doesn't mean to stop caring. Do I look like I'm not being of our Father's business?

If you say we are actually in the trib, than do you think the AC is in power? Keep this in mind:

1 John 2:18:

18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This tells me that we aren't supposed to be worried about the AC, there are so many, and we won't be around for the real one very long.

I do believe we are seeing a whole bunch of end times stuff, but the Day of the LORD hasn't started yet. I know there are some suspects, but let me just say I wish I had known the above verse last summer. :mrgreen: I was very backslidden and tried to debate the AC without the help of the Spirit and it was a disaster, so I'm not worried about it anymore. The AC will be who it is. :2wave:
 
Well, I shouldn't have said it doesn't make sense, and that was wrong of me to say. His will be done. :)

And I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, Kali. See y'all. :2wave:
 
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Yes, not even all Baptist churches teach the same stuff. :( Actually, I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church, and they taught about the pretrib Rapture. I guess I wasn't forced because I truly loved the Bible and church since I was little. And I've recently realised how right it all is and how blessed I am.

Anyway, yes, according to my old church, the Bride will be raptured, and hidden in heaven before the Tribulation. After the trib, we will come back to the earth with Christ, and we will watch what he does to the enemies of Israel. Then Christ will reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years to show the world a perfect theocracy. The Bride and Trib saints will help him reign, it really says that in Revelation. During this time Satan will be bound somewhere. At the end of 1,000 years, Satan will be loosed and humankind will be given a final choice, and no one will have an excuse because they will see what it's like with Jesus, and if Satan can still talk you away from actually living with Jesus, oh man! :shock: But it happened to Adam and Eve, so...:shrug:

And I have considered all 3 Rapture positions, and according to how things happened in the Bible, and Jesus, pretrib makes the most sense to me. :2wave:

Thanks for the reply. Do you think Satan rules the Earth right now and also where do you think he will be bound? Also does Satan rule Hell right now? Earth and Hell?
 
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