Putin knows he gets annihilated in a conventional war with the West and he's not one to admit defeat...

[Shrink726]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

 

[Jkca1]

Give me a list of those countries that have successfully invaded Russia.

 

[Shrink726]

Give me a list of those countries that have successfully invaded Russia.

No one is suggesting an invasion of Russia. The issue is whether we stand up to a terrorist who's wantonly engaging in war crimes. The people of Ukraine cannot be left to die under the heels of Putin's goons.

Like I said, this is a Chamberlain/Churchill moment.

 

[Felis Leo]

Give me a list of those countries that have successfully invaded Russia.

Off the top of my head?

The German Empire.

The Kingdom of Sweden.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Duchy of Poland.

The Mongol Empire.

 

[Jkca1]

Off the top of my head?

The German Empire.

The Kingdom of Sweden.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Duchy of Poland.

The Mongol Empire.

I think that all of the above did invade Russia but were eventually kicked out /displaced/liberated by the Russian people. If I am wrong I hope you will correct me.

 

[Felis Leo]

I think that all of the above did invade Russia but were eventually kicked out /displaced/liberated by the Russian people. If I am wrong I hope you will correct me.

Indeed. By "successfully invade", I presumed you meant countries that managed to breach Russian territory and defeat Russian military forces on their own land, and then imposed terms on them via treaties after the Russian rulers sued for peace. In most cases, the Russians revenged themselves against their invaders years or even generations later.

 

[Shrink726]

I think that all of the above did invade Russia but were eventually kicked out /displaced/liberated by the Russian people. If I am wrong I hope you will correct me.

This is an absurd issue/comment. No one has any interest in taking over or occupying Russia. This is simply about stopping their homicidal aggression against innocent neighbors.

 

[jnug]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

Well I don't think the fly zone decision defines this mess in terns of Neville Chamberlain's response to Hitler.

Here is what is different. Nobody knew at the point of Chamberlain to Hitler and the resulting peace pact that Hitler had already lost his bid for major territorial gains that would be sustainable reshaping the map of Europe. It does not make what Chamberlain did worthy of praise. It was then and is today worthy of derision. I don't give a crap how Brits responded to Chamberlain's move. Brits had much more in common with Germany in 1938 than it had with Czechoslovakia. But that does not justify Chamberlain's gutless gesture. Hitler went on to sign non-aggresssion pacts with Poland and the Soviet Union both of which he violated in pretty short order.

We already know that Putin has lost. He has lost because he believed his own BULLSHIT and had somehow managed to convince himself that Ukraine national spirit was not real and that he would be welcomed as some sort of half-assed liberator. Putin's bid to take AND HOLD Ukraine was doomed from the start. He might be able to take it, but he can't hold it and being unable to hold it makes all this suffering and death and destruction for naught. All of it on his head.

Now he has doomed Russia to the status of a world pariah, the largest ever but no less the pariah than any other throughout history. That is where Russia will remain while Putin stays in power.

 

[Jkca1]

This is an absurd issue/comment. No one has any interest in taking over or occupying Russia. This is simply about stopping their homicidal aggression against innocent neighbors.

Read the OP again. Does Putin really know he'd lose a conventional war? History is on his side. Just ask Napoleon and Hitler.

 

[Shrink726]

Read the OP again. Does Putin really know he'd lose a conventional war? History is on his side. Just ask Napoleon and Hitler.

His conventional forces wouldn't stand a chance against those of the US, no less the assembled military might of the US and NATO. His military can't even make progress against a country like Ukraine.

Russian and US military firepower: A comparison

The latest data has recognised the countries' militaries as two of the most powerful in the world.

www.forces.net

 

[Fishking]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

Why can't the world sit by? Were you outraged over the war crimes and human rights violations that Ukraine was doing before all this happened? If the world had stood by and just let the second rate countries of Austria-Hungary and Serbia it would've been ancient history. We wouldn't have had WWI, which gave us communist Russia, WWII, communist China, the Cold War, 9/11, ect. ect. ect.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Umm...a no-fly zone would have to be imposed by shooting down Russian aircraft so it would be.

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

This is an Archduke Fanz Ferdinand moment.

And yes...the US itself could stomp Russia's conventional military in fairly quick work.

 

[jnug]

Read the OP again. Does Putin really know he'd lose a conventional war? History is on his side. Just ask Napoleon and Hitler.

Except Russia is the aggressor here. Defending Russia from attack by Napoleon and Hitler is not the same thing as Russia being the aggressor. Napoleon and Hitler were ground to dust by the harsh Russian winter. If not for that, they would be speaking French or German in Moscow.

 

[jnug]

Why can't the world sit by? Were you outraged over the war crimes and human rights violations that Ukraine was doing before all this happened? If the world had stood by and just let the second rate countries of Austria-Hungary and Serbia it would've been ancient history. We wouldn't have had WWI, which gave us communist Russia, WWII, communist China, the Cold War, 9/11, ect. ect. ect.

Because Putin will not stop at the border of Ukraine. However there is no need for a US or NATO led no fly zone. Putin has already lost. He just does not know it yet.

 

[Jkca1]

His conventional forces wouldn't stand a chance against those of the US, no less the assembled military might of the US and NATO. His military can't even make progress against a country like Ukraine.

Russian and US military firepower: A comparison

The latest data has recognised the countries' militaries as two of the most powerful in the world.

www.forces.net

"While Felgenhauer agreed with Golt’s assessment of the US’s military advantage, he warned that open warfare often comes down to far more than the inventories that each side of the conflict can call upon.

He told DW that “it’s like predicting the result of a soccer match”, adding: “Yes, basically, Brazil should beat America in soccer, but I have seen Americans beat Brazil in South Africa, at the Confederations Cup. You never know the result until the game is played.”

https://www.theweek.co.uk/the-week-unwrapped/104574/nato-vs-russia-who-would-win

 

[code1211]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

The highlighted portion is the nugget and it reveals the truth of the matter.

Making a choice, deferring the choice or refusing to make a choice, frozen by fear and indecision, are all making a choice.

It's too bad our fear ridden, feckless leaders lack backbones, balls and a sense of right and wrong. Putin recognized their shortcomings last Summer. He is conducting a graduate level course in international law right now.

We do not choose to either attend or not attend. The lesson is being taught and we are either going to learn or remain ignorant. Failure is fatal. The course is not pass-fail. It is life-death.

This is really no different than the news story of several years ago when hundreds of New Yorkers closed the windows on their apartments rather than listen as a young lady was brutally beaten to death by a thug screaming and begging for help.

It's too bad that we are led by the cowardly, feckless group of amoral political opportunists we are led by. How many times are we to close our figurative windows to muffle the pleading cries for help?

March 13, 1964 | New York Woman Killed While Witnesses Do Nothing

On March 13, 1964, a 28-year-old woman named Catherine “Kitty” Genovese was raped and killed in two separate late-night attacks near her home in Kew Gardens, Queens.

learning.blogs.nytimes.com

 

[Craig234]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

My opinion: Putin doesn't need to use nukes to accomplish his military goals in Ukraine. He has overwhelming advantage and the west has stories of heroism as people are slaughtered.

The west does not have reason to use nuclear weapons, as it could do anything it wanted militarily with conventional forces; the pont is they don't want to get into a war escalating to nuclear weapons.

So all of this leaves one very dangerous risk of nuclear weapons. The west is determined to pressure Putin so much that his life is threatened, which for him means not staying in office. And he has only one tool to use to demand the west end that pressure: nuclear blackmail.

The details of how it happens aren't as important; I've suggested it could start with one bomb in an unpopulated area; it could be a threat. But we're in world-threatening danger as we try to threaten a cornered animal who has nuclear weapons and everything says no compunctions about using them as leverage. We're making him feel he has little to lose.

 

[Cardinal]

So unless there's some other off ramp I see nukes (probably tactical ones) being used in the very near future. The world simply cannot sit by idly while Putin slaughters the Ukrainian people while committing one after another war crimes.

He just said today that he would consider any nation imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine to be an "actively involved combatant."

Bottom line - - this is a Neville Chamberlain/Winston Churchill moment.

Do we appease or do we say we're not going to allow this; you can do what you want, but if you make the wrong choice, we'll vaporize you.

The problem isn’t that he considers a no fly zone “actively involved combat.” You don’t need a psychopath like Putin to get to that conclusion, and such combat falls into the No-No’s Of The Old Rules Of The Cold War department.

No, the really concerning thing is that he considers sanctions an act of war, and it’s precisely that which is different from the Old Rules.

 

[BirdinHand]

The world can do exactly what is being done.

Offer Ukraine support and sanction Russia.

Volunteers are going there to fight, perhaps everyone anxious to escalate the situation should go ahead and volunteer.

 

[jnug]

My opinion: Putin doesn't need to use nukes to accomplish his military goals in Ukraine. He has overwhelming advantage and the west has stories of heroism as people are slaughtered.

The west does not have reason to use nuclear weapons, as it could do anything it wanted militarily with conventional forces; the pont is they don't want to get into a war escalating to nuclear weapons.

So all of this leaves one very dangerous risk of nuclear weapons. The west is determined to pressure Putin so much that his life is threatened, which for him means not staying in office. And he has only one tool to use to demand the west end that pressure: nuclear blackmail.

The details of how it happens aren't as important; I've suggested it could start with one bomb in an unpopulated area; it could be a threat. But we're in world-threatening danger as we try to threaten a cornered animal who has nuclear weapons and everything says no compunctions about using them as leverage. We're making him feel he has little to lose.

Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, they are going to suffer mightily from Putin's military goals. Unfortunately for Putin and Russia, he cannot accomplish his strategic goals and the Russian people will suffer mightily for Putin's transgressions.

 

[Craig234]

Give me a list of those countries that have successfully invaded Russia.

That is irrelevant for the situation today.

 

[Razoo]

Give me a list of those countries that have successfully invaded Russia.

Afghanistan sent Russia home ......... with their persistent and covert military style.

 

[Jkca1]

That is irrelevant for the situation today.

"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it".

 

[Fishking]

Because Putin will not stop at the border of Ukraine. However there is no need for a US or NATO led no fly zone. Putin has already lost. He just does not know it yet.

1. Why would he go beyond Ukraine, especially if he has already lost there, by your own words?
2. Sounds like an issue for European bodies to deal with first.

 

[Jkca1]

Afghanistan sent Russia home ......... with their persistent and covert military style.

C'mon, that's not even close to a successful invasion of Russia.

 

[Fishking]

That is irrelevant for the situation today.

Yeah...100% agree here. Modern technology is such that Russia wouldn't be able to hide and let winter do it's just like it could in the past. However, even if we accept that it would, I think that if nukes are off the table, the US would be able to wrap up Russia in as quick of time as the warmer months and not have to even deal with the winter.