Putin agreed to let US, Europe offer NATO-style security protections for Ukraine, Trump envoy says

[multivita-man]

We have access to any information we want,

And much of it - including supposedly good sources or reporting such as The Atlantic, The New York Times, etc. - is crap.

unlike, say, in Russia or China. Equating the liberal West with Russia is hard for me to take seriously.

I'm not equating our values; I'm pointing out that there's a lot of one-sided information that's put out there and we're predisposed to accept it because it aligns with our viewpoints. You'll probably still insist that I'm equating, though.

You're right about some parts of our society being insular and uncurious--I think this is more prevalent in "red" areas, by the way--but other parts of society are the opposite. Personally, I have a graduate degree in political science, lived in Germany for two years, have travelled to over fifty nations, and have read as a habit since I was old enough to carry a book. I'm particularly interested in world history (current events are just the first cut of history) and the natural sciences. If you define propaganda broadly, sure, it's inescapable. If you define it more narrowly, as in purposely misleading or inaccurate, then it is less prevalent and more noticeable. Some of us are better at spotting propaganda than others. Being broadly educated and experienced helps, but there is no doubt that our biases are difficult to overcome.

Values such as freedom and democracy, the rule of law, and free-market capitalism are embraced by many in the world. They are high-minded values, so we often fall short, but they are the goals nonetheless. Trump and his rabid followers are trashing all of them.

I agree, but liberal democracy has been rusting in the United States for quite some time. It's just that now the wheelbase and axles are visibly corroded.

Putin invaded Ukraine because he wants to be remembered as a latter-day Peter the Great. He wants to restore the Russian Empire, regardless of the deaths and suffering his crusade causes. He is the personification of evil. People like him make this world a much, much more painful and grief-stricken place than it ever needs to be.

We have to deal with dangerous people. We don't have much choice. When we try to insist that our values are superior to the Russian devils that is a recipe for all-out disaster.

 

[jpn]

And much of it - including supposedly good sources or reporting such as The Atlantic, The New York Times, etc. - is crap.

And what makes you say that? What makes them "crap"? Examples? What are better alternatives?

I agree, but liberal democracy has been rusting in the United States for quite some time. It's just that now the wheelbase and axles are visibly corroded.

Can you provide any examples? Can you provide any suggestions on how to improve? I certainly won't argue that it is under brutal assault on all fronts from MAGA.

It's really easy to criticize. It's more difficult to isolate real issues and methods for dealing with them.

Liberal democracy is challenging, but I haven't seen a better alternative. Have you?

We have to deal with dangerous people. We don't have much choice.

Yes, we don't need to tell that to the Ukrainians. I support them, and I support helping them. Don't you?

When we try to insist that our values are superior to the Russian devils that is a recipe for all-out disaster.

I haven't heard many people insist--or even suggest--that they're "superior to the Russian devils." Most people I read or hear with understand that Russia isn't a democracy. Some brave Russians have tried to oppose the war, but they end up being assassinated or imprisoned. Putin is a devil. The Russian people are similar to us, with a wide variety of opinions, biases, and motivations. Many back Putin, but some of that is because, as we discussed earlier, they are being fed propaganda day and night.

 

[jpn]

I'm not runnin back through posts. All it's saying to me is that you poor warmongerer/Trump haters - that want to send Ukrainians to their ruin - are running out of excuses. You go get quotes if their pertinent, in other words, make an effort. Otherwise go have another virtual Trump hating fest with your "like kind"

In Donbas, Ukrainians hold out as Russia besieges, bargains for their land
Even as Ukrainians flee Russia’s renewed offensive in the east, they maintain they are not ready to give up territory in exchange for peace, as Trump says Putin is offering.
[...]
In the same room was Yura Zubkov, 44, a Ukrainian soldier from Kramatorsk who was wounded fighting in the nearby city of Chasiv Yar, which Russian forces recently took after more than a year of intense battle. “What, do you expect me to give my home to someone else?” he asked. “I was born here. I live here. I’ll be fighting for this place.”“Trump needs to understand this would be like abandoning California and asking all U.S. forces to leave,” he added.

 

[jpn]

agree Russia is winning the war of attrition. I am looking at the economy and weapons, but while i haven't looked recently
the manpower attrition is a prime concern for Ukraine.

Ha. He hasn't gotten anywhere. He spent the last eight months believing that if he asked Putin nicely, the war would stop because Putin would do it for his friend.

After eight months he realized that what everyone had been telling him was right after all. So he went to Alaska, declaring that Putin would face "very severe consequences" if he didn't agree to a cease-fire at the Alaska meeting.

Despite the red carpet and military fly-over and all the charm Trump could muster, Putin didn't come anywhere close to agreeing to a cease-fire.

So now Trump has dropped that demand as if he had never made it at all.

And we're no closer to any kind of a real agreement that we were eight months ago.

Yes he does hate war. You are absolutely right. And it's his sheer force of will that has gotten the world on board with peace in Ukraine. Kudos to the world leaders that are now backing him.

Ha ha. The free world has been behind Ukraine from the start, while Trump was calling Putin's invasion "brilliant," running down NATO, halting U.S. aid, and he and Vance were humiliating Zelensky in the White House.

The world leaders felt they had to get together as a show of unity to push Trump not to give in to Putin.

 

[Roadvirus]

As for Putin agreeing to NATO-style protections per the OP, that's fantasy.

Russia says discussing Ukraine security guarantees without Moscow 'road to nowhere'​

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Wednesday that discussing any Western security guarantees for Ukraine without Russian involvement was a "road to nowhere".​

NATO military chiefs were set Wednesday to discuss the details of eventual security guarantees for Ukraine amid efforts to broker an end to Russia's offensive.​

But Lavrov warned that "seriously discussing security guarantees without the Russian Federation is a utopia, a road to nowhere.​

​

Russia demanding the right to attend any and all discussions is just their way of stalling them.

Russia...the antagonist in all this...wants to add their 2 cents.

Piss on them. They have no right to make demands.

 

[Logophile]

Ha. He hasn't gotten anywhere. He spent the last eight months believing that if he asked Putin nicely, the war would stop because Putin would do it for his friend.

After eight months he realized that what everyone had been telling him was right after all. So he went to Alaska, declaring that Putin would face "very severe consequences" if he didn't agree to a cease-fire at the Alaska meeting.

Despite the red carpet and military fly-over and all the charm Trump could muster, Putin didn't come anywhere close to agreeing to a cease-fire.

So now Trump has dropped that demand as if he had never made it at all.

And we're no closer to any kind of a real agreement that we were eight months ago.


Ha ha. The free world has been behind Ukraine from the start, while Trump was calling Putin's invasion "brilliant," running down NATO, halting U.S. aid, and he and Vance were humiliating Zelensky in the White House.

The world leaders felt they had to get together as a show of unity to push Trump not to give in to Putin.

Yeah, like you know what world leaders "got together for." Seems likely that the war might be a big fat drain on their budgets, and that if they didn't look supportive, they'd look pretty scummy, along with the very real possibility that they may have a conscience and want peace because it's the right thing to do for the Ukrainian people. Not everybody wants Trump to fail, you see?? Most people want wars to end through negotiation because they have empathy and sympathy for those suffering from war

 

[j brown's body]

Yeah, like you know what world leaders "got together for." Seems likely that the war might be a big fat drain on their budgets, and that if they didn't look supportive, they'd look pretty scummy, along with the very real possibility that they may have a conscience and want peace because it's the right thing to do for the Ukrainian people. Not everybody wants Trump to fail, you see?? Most people want wars to end through negotiation because they have empathy and sympathy for those suffering from war

They're trying to keep Trump from caving further.

Actually, they are divided. Trump has switched sides and now agrees with Putin that no ceasefire is neccesary, while the European leaders say it is.

 

[Logophile]

They're trying to keep Trump from caving further.

Actually, they are divided. Trump has switched sides and now agrees with Putin that no ceasefire is neccesary, while the European leaders say it is.

It's standard play negotiations. That's what people do: they posture, they submit ideas, they take positions to see who's willing to meet them, even if it's half way. They're not negotiating the price of lawn care. They're in a high stakes negotiation over the imperative end of a horrible war, so surely you wish all parties intent on peace well, right??

 

[j brown's body]

It's standard play negotiations. That's what people do: they posture, they submit ideas, they take positions to see who's willing to meet them, even if it's half way. They're not negotiating the price of lawn care. They're in a high stakes negotiation over the imperative end of a horrible war, so surely you wish all parties intent on peace well, right??

Switching sides is a standard negotiating tool?

 

[jpn]

It's standard play negotiations. That's what people do: they posture, they submit ideas, they take positions to see who's willing to meet them, even if it's half way. They're not negotiating the price of lawn care. They're in a high stakes negotiation over the imperative end of a horrible war, so surely you wish all parties intent on peace well, right??

Everyone wants peace. Except Putin. Putin wants Ukraine and won't stop until someone stops him.

You seem to be saying, give Putin Ukraine, and then we can enjoy peace. Ukrainians disagree. Europeans also disagree because they are afraid that it will leave them open for Putin's next land grab.

Just ask the Poles, or the Baltic states.

 

[Logophile]

Everyone wants peace. Except Putin. Putin wants Ukraine and won't stop until someone stops him.

You seem to be saying, give Putin Ukraine, and then we can enjoy peace. Ukrainians disagree. Europeans also disagree because they are afraid that it will leave them open for Putin's next land grab.

Just ask the Poles, or the Baltic states.

You don't want peace. Seriously, just admit it. Nobody said anything about giving Putin Ukraine. This is you bald faced lying, and you're lying because that's what Trump haters do when nothing is worse than his succeeding at something. You have no credibility any more. I wish you did, but you don't. You don't want to help the Ukrainians with troops - I mean, you sure don't want to go - you just want Ukrainians to eradicate themselves in the name of your hatred and/or your ego or both. Personally, I couldn't live with myself on that basis, but I see a bunch of Democrats can. Okay. Just know that you're getting nowhere on that ticket

 

[Jredbaron96]

I know it's Trump and all, but I'm still kinda surprised Witkoff is still involved. He keeps making basic errors that are continuously undermining negotiations and you'd think even Trump at this point would say something.

 

[Atomic Kid]

Did you not see the Ukraine poll?? Is that why you're basing your entire position on a whopper?? Because you don't KNOW that 69 percent of Ukrainians want a negotiated settlement?? I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to you not being privy to the poll that was on a thread presented right here on this forum. Here's the name: Ukrainian Support for War Effort Collapses

They may want a negotiated settlement, but not under Russia's terms. Only 17% of those Ukrainians surveyed would accept a peace plan on Russian terms, with 76% of respondents “categorically against” such compromises. So therein lies the problem. The devil is in the details.

 

[Atomic Kid]

I’ve repeatedly pointed out the basic claim that Putin is akin to Hitler is not even remotely accurate—or rational, for that matter.

I then supported that claim, and pointed out the widespread nature of American warmongering, as shown by the cries for “no fly zones”.

You haven’t managed to muster up…..anything, really.

BS, he isn't. Putin is using the same type of tactics and political rhetoric Hitler employed.

 

[Tigerace117]

BS, he isn't. Putin is using the same type of tactics and political rhetoric Hitler employed.

Russia and America have invaded the exact same number of countries since 2001, so clearly not.

The U.S has wholeheartedly embraced outright Nazi propaganda— such as the myth of the “Clean Wehrmacht”— for generations

 

[Atomic Kid]

Russia and America have invaded the exact same number of countries since 2001, so clearly not.

The U.S has wholeheartedly embraced outright Nazi propaganda— such as the myth of the “Clean Wehrmacht”— for generations

The deflective nonsense you posted has nothing to do with what is happening here and now. Putin has adopted Nazi propaganda methods and rhetoric, and even some of its military tactics, because he finds that it works. As far as he is concerned, anyway.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Lavrov over past 48 hours has begun to walk everything back.

It mustsuck to be a Putin-loving Trump-ball-washer these days.

Trump and Putin think Trump supporters are dumb as ****.

 

[Tigerace117]

The deflective nonsense you posted has nothing to do with what is happening here and now. Putin has adopted Nazi propaganda methods and rhetoric, and even some of its military tactics, because he finds that it works. As far as he is concerned, anyway.

Blind denial doesn’t actually change the fact that your narrative doesn’t hold up.

Oh really? He’s adopted “Nazi rhetoric”? You must have evidence of him declaring himself and his country “untermensch” because, you know, that’s what the “Nazi rhetoric” on Russia was.

Dude, blitzkrieg was the precursor to, like, a substantial amount of global military thought. America’s own military doctrine is much closer to what the Germans envisioned.

The fact that American apologists can’t engage with reality and have to blind shriek “Hitler” at anything they don’t like is comical, but doesn’t change the facts.

 

[j brown's body]

The deflective nonsense you posted has nothing to do with what is happening here and now. Putin has adopted Nazi propaganda methods and rhetoric, and even some of its military tactics, because he finds that it works. As far as he is concerned, anyway.

It isn't easy defending Europe's biggest mass murderer since Hitler.