Prostitution

Fantasea said:

Thanx. I always appreciate a compliment.I don't wish to appear disingenuous, however, my interpretation of what you write could be condensed into, "It all depends upon whose ox is being gored."

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puck said:

Fantasea, thank you for sharing the article. While it reiterates that legalization is not a perfect solution. I still believe that legalization is a better solution. Condoms used, are better than condoms not used. Here are just a few studies to confirm that:

Crosby RA et al. (2003). The value of consistent condom use: a study of sexually transmitted disease prevention among African American adolescent females. American Journal of Public Health, 93, 901-902.

Holmes KK, Levine R, Weaver M. (2004). Effectiveness of condoms in preventing sexually transmitted infections. Bulletin of the World Health Organization, 82, 454-464.

Shlay JC et al. (2004). Comparison of sexually transmitted disease prevalence by reported level of condom use among patients attending an urban sexually transmitted disease clinic. Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 31, 154-160.

However, in the study, "Facilitating condom use with clients during commercial sex in Nevada's legal brothels." by Albert AE, Warner DL, Hatcher RA; it states that only 2.7% of 3290 clients had a problem with using condoms. Of these individuals, 72% ultimately used condoms, while 12% chose non penetrative sex without condoms. The remaining 16% left the brothels without services.

Now compare that with non regulated prostitution. I would like to be able to quote you some statistics here, but I haven't found a legitimate source on condom use with illegal prostitutes.

No I am not so nave to believe that just because prostitution is legalized everyone will use condoms. I do believe that it will stop any number of problems associated with illegal prostitution.

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puck said:

Until a child reaches their majority, they are not legally allowed to enter into legally binding contracts, because it is feared that they are not mature enough to make an informed decision. A man or woman that chooses to sell sexual favors, makes that choice for themselves. A minor isn't considered to have the maturity to make that decision, and no one has the right to make a decision like this for anyone else, young or old.

A man or woman (to use your metaphor) chooses to be gored. A child isn't old enough to make the decision for themselves.

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puck said:

Again a good point! Fantasea, it is a pleasure to debate with a real mind for a change!

I never stated legalization was a panacea. Legalization is better because some regulation is better than none. STDs will happen, until we can eradicate the causative factors. In a perfect world, all sex would be consensual and monogamous. Every child would be wanted and loved. No one would be hungry, everyone would work for a fair wage. That perfect world doesn't exist.

If you are a Christian, the Christ says, the poor will be with you always. That doesn't mean we can't do anything about it, just that some problems are unsolvable. We fight daily to make the world a little better. Apathy, laziness, greed, and selfishness fight against us.

I don't know how to get rid of prostitution, I believe legalization will make the lives of those who choose that lifestyle a little better. Will STDs increase as a result of legalization, I don't think so. I believe that if laws such as those in Nevada are enforced we may see a decrease. I cannot prove that of course, only by testing it could I do that. I do not believe there is any data to support that despite the increased risk that Nevada prostitutes are a hot bed of sexually transmitted disease.

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puck said:

Fantasea, If I understand the gist of your posting you are comparing people to unruly children, that won't obey the parent or is it big brother. These are adults, and have a right to their choice. Whether you or I agree with it or no.

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These adults were once the 'unruly children' to whom you refer. Being reared with little or no consideration to the responsibilities which enable one to progress through life without the aches, pains, and problems of their own, which we are now discussing, as well as those they cause to others, ensures that there is plenty for us to discuss.

As far as lowering the bar, no one has the right to put a bar there to begin with. By holding persons to a higher moral standard than they care to consent to, only contributes to the problem, and doesn't do a thing to solve it.

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I don't see it as a problem involving morality. I see it as a problem involving civility and the ability to navigate through adulthood as a responsible member of and contributor to the community.

Instead of trying to hold back the sea, why don't you try to channel it. If you can't stop it, make it move to more constructive areas.

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The answer to that one is simple. There are those who cannot take a hint unless it is as subtle as a whack on the head with a baseball bat.

Many of our laws which have withstood constitutional challenges were enacted to do just that -- to regulate anti-social behavior.

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Fantasea said:

These adults were once the 'unruly children' to whom you refer. Being reared with little or no consideration to the responsibilities which enable one to progress through life without the aches, pains, and problems of their own, which we are now discussing, as well as those they cause to others, ensures that there is plenty for us to discuss.

I don't see it as a problem involving morality. I see it as a problem involving civility and the ability to navigate through adulthood as a responsible member of and contributor to the community.The answer to that one is simple. There are those who cannot take a hint unless it is as subtle as a whack on the head with a baseball bat.

Many of our laws which have withstood constitutional challenges were enacted to do just that -- to regulate anti-social behavior.

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puck said:

It is in the common interest of society to regulate anti-social behavior. Sex isn't anti-social. So paying for it is? I believe the anti-social part, is that which surrounds illegal prostitution. Street Walkers being a public nuisance. Increased risk of transmission of STDs, because of no or poor preventative techniques. Other interdependent factors of illegal prostitution are usually found in areas where law enforcement has broken down; such as elevated crime rates, and drug addiction.

By propagating laws that force prostitution into these dark lawless environments. These laws are reinforcing the misery, rather than making anything better.

To make it simple. If you try to clean your kitchen in the dark, you are going to miss things. Only by bringing everything out into the light where it can be seen clearly, can those dirty (anti-social) things be cleansed.

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Fantasea said:

So what you wish to do is discriminate against the men in the lower economic group who are unable to afford the rates charged by the fancy gals.

If some guy is willing to take a chance on a twenty dollar investment in the back seat of a car, consequences be damned, what business is that of the law authorities? It's only a little commerce which gives the guy a thrill and the gal a few bucks with which to supplement her "entitlement".

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puck said:

I am concerned about the tone of your reply however. "Entitlement"?

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I am an Agnostic, if there is a God, he hasn't made his presence known to me.

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Fantasea said:

Sure. With no visible means of support, most streetwalkers qualify for all kinds of benefits and usually take full advantage of the opportunity.I am concerned about the tone of your declaration. I can't imagine why God should take the first step to make his presence known to anyone.

Fantasea, I do enjoy our discussion, yes I will admit it is human nature to obtain every resource available to us. Some of our more dishonest will certainly do so no matter what socio-economic background they come from. Look at ENRON.

You do realize, that if prostitution were legal, this would not be possible, as the income would be taxed. Of course, some would cheat on their taxes, but that would just put them with everyone else that cheats.

As I stated, I'm Agnostic, I have searched for God every day of my life. I do not deny the existence of God, I just don't know there is one. But this is a debate about prostitution not the existence of God.

Wasted potential. Yes it is sad. I work with the poor, my job entails contact with them every day. Every day I see someone who is not living up to their potential. Sometimes it's just pure laziness, often it's lack of opportunity. Whatever the reason, this has existed since the dawn of time, I fear that it will not end in my lifetime. Not that you and I, and our friends here will not aspire to raise them up. We can only show them the ladder, they must climb it themselves.

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puck said:

Fantasea, I do enjoy our discussion, yes I will admit it is human nature to obtain every resource available to us. Some of our more dishonest will certainly do so no matter what socio-economic background they come from. Look at ENRON.

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Complaining about Enron is like blaming Smith & Wesson because some convenience store clerk was shot with one of their products during a holdup. However, Ken Lay, the former Enron CEO, and his accomplices are scheduled to stand trial and, if the trend continues, the Bush administration will continue to convict and imprison those who caused the collosal losses which began to emerge during the Clinton Administration era of easy audits and faulty regulatory oversight. I saw that Bernie Ebbers of WorldCom was just sentenced to 25 years.

You do realize, that if prostitution were legal, this would not be possible, as the income would be taxed. Of course, some would cheat on their taxes, but that would just put them with everyone else that cheats.

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Forgive me, but I can't resist this.

I can see it now. Following the usual sex education classes in high school, new courses would be offered at community colleges that would lead to a diploma in Contemporary Prostitution.

The brochure would read something like this:

First year required courses: "The Finer Points of Fellatio", "Elementary Foreplay", "Advanced Foreplay", which would feature two-handed arousal methods, "Masturbation I", "Masturbation II" (both half year courses), and "Sensual Massage".

Second year required courses concentrate on the practical application of skills learned during the first year, as well as, "An Introduction to the Kama Sutra" with extra credit for advancing beyond the first ten positions, "Personal Hygiene and Tarty Makeup", "How to Dress for Maximum Exposure", "Sex Tips, Tricks, and Teases", and "A Guide to Extracting the Maximum Money From a John with the Minimum Expenditure of Effort."

A suggested elective is "Bedroom Gymnastics and Cavorting".

All students must pass written tests and are required to frequently demonstrate proficiency in all physical aspects of each course.

A current Emergency Medical Technician or Para-Medic certificate with a mouth to mouth resusitation endorsement must be presented to the registrar upon enrollment. (You must be prepared if your client has a weak heart or gets one of those "erections that last more than four hours".

All students will be required to obtain their own supply of cucumbers, condoms, and vaseline.

Upon graduation, the incumbents will be qualified to work in any licensed cat house, escort service, or massage parlor.

Tuition loans may be arranged and there are a limited number of scholarships based upon a combination of financial need, physical measurements, and a willingness to gratify the faculty.

Oh the glory of the graduation exercise. Imagine the proud parents as their daughters undulate down the aisle to receive their awards and diplomas.

The beaming mother smiles to the woman next to her, "That's my daughter; she won the medal for best sex both years". And the exstatic father leans over and adds, "And I always helped her with her homework.

Although presented in jest, if one looks at the curricula of a few generations ago and notes the changes to date, and the direction some folks are trying to push the country, it’s not so far fetched, after all.

With the right kind of marketing and promotion, we might see the rise of a new industry that could rival the economic success of the abortion industry.

As I stated, I'm Agnostic, I have searched for God every day of my life. I do not deny the existence of God, I just don't know there is one. But this is a debate about prostitution not the existence of God.

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True.[quit]Wasted potential. Yes it is sad. I work with the poor, my job entails contact with them every day. Every day I see someone who is not living up to their potential. Sometimes it's just pure laziness, often it's lack of opportunity. Whatever the reason, this has existed since the dawn of time, I fear that it will not end in my lifetime. Not that you and I, and our friends here will not aspire to raise them up. We can only show them the ladder, they must climb it themselves.

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puck said:

Fantasea, you're not suppose to make the person your debating with laugh. But that was great. :rofl Maybe you should get extra points for that.

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When I feel the temperature rising from jousting with some of the nudnicks and numb skulls who populate this forum, I declare a time out and seek a little comic relief. Chance picked you. I'm glad you took it good naturedly.

Now to your points, I wasn't complaining about Enron. They cheated, it good that they were caught, and hopefully will receive appropriate punishment. I was merely pointing out, that law breakers come from the wealthy, as well as the poor.

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It has been observed that crime rates were lowest in the US during the Great Depression. This gives the lie to a connection between crime and poverty.

As to your delightful description of the prospective educational requirements of a prostitute. I would say that sounds about like a PhD to me.

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PhD = Pretty Hot Dish???

To your third, and I believe most important point. Reading. I couldn't agree with you more. Education has got to be the foundation of raising our selves from the near sighted, self serving culture we have become. I frequently feel like an outsider among my peers. I was reading a book the other day, when a co-worker commented on how boring the subject was. When questioned, she didn't have a clue what the subject even was. It ended in "ology" so it must be dull. What is to become of a culture that leaves it's poor, cold and hungry in the streets, while society vegetates before a television, learning little.

How do we compete with play station? We can only do what we can, but I fear that the weight of cultural momentum is against us.

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I don't care for the words attributed to old Adolph, but one of his ideas cannot be denied. It was along the lines of, "Give me access to children early enough and by the age of seven, they're mine for life." Adages such as "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.", and "A stitch in time saves nine.", also have applicability.

The end of the third grade is the tipping point. If a kid cannot read at grade level, he is in serious trouble. From the fourth grade on, the text book is the primary tool and written testing is the primary measure of progress. If the books cannot be understood and the questions on the test cannot be read, the die is cast. The kid will be on a downward slope from there on. His embarrassment manifests itself in his becoming a disruptive force as a bully, the class clown, or both. He agonizes until that magic sixteenth birthday frees him from the shackles of school and lets him join the work force as a career minimum wage slave.

It is no secret that most of the prison population is semi-literate, at best.

As I see it, the solution to the reading problem is simple. From day one in school, concentrate on reading to the exclusion of all else. Enthusiastically read entertaining stories to the kids. Engage them in conversation about the stories. Their curiosity becomes aroused, they become comfortable in answering questions, and they see school as a fun place. Discipline problems will disappear.

Reading instruction is interspersed with the stories being read to the class. Increase the reading instruction and motivate the kids to read aloud. First, the whole class together, then individuals reading a sentence each going around the room. It becomes a game to which the kids will all respond. As kids grow to enjoy reading because they can do it and it is fun, their appetite for it becomes insatiable.

No longer will it matter that parents don't get involved.

The teacher carefully looks for those who are at the lower end of the achievement scale and showers them with additional attention. Kids respond to kind and gentle treatment.

If we don't gum up the works with anything else but reading until the kids have a firm foundation, everything else becomes easier.

Of course, the teacher's organizations, the unions, and the ACLU would never stand for such heresy.

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