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Prolife's prurient interest in controlling your body: explained.

ngdawg said:
So, am I to assume that those without this 'gift' are less? Menopause makes us unvaluable? Those that choose never to have kids
Yea, I agree, fertility IS a gift, one I was not given. That doesn't make me any less a woman and it's not a bonus to be handed out to those deemed worthy of it.
We're not special merely because of a uterus. Thanks for setting back womanhood about 120 years.
You are totally screwing with what I said. DENIAL of fertility, DIMINISHING the gift of fertility, CASTERATING fertility, PERCEIVING it as a curse or an illness is what is ANTI-WOMAN. Women (in general--and even those who are infertile) are the bearers of humanity by virtue of the female ability to carry the next generation--their unique femininity. It is an incredible loss to be infertile--but it does not make a woman any less a woman. DENYING that fertility is a gift of womanhood is an attempt to make a woman less. Many women do it to themselves through purposefully cutting themselves off from that empowering gift. BTW--fertility is not the only gift of womanhood that is devalued and diminished in favor of "masculine superiority" Ha! "superiority"--that is the message of the contracepting/aborting mentality--women should be more like men. That is crap--women should glorify their femininity and let men be men and women be women! Men have their own unique gifts and more power to them--women's gifts should be valued equally (though they are different) rather than us women trying to be more like men. We ARE different--GLORY in the difference. Our expression of fertility is part of that. Your fertility problem is a loss, but not something that makes you less. A person missing a leg is still a whole person. It is the degradation of womanly fertility and her other gifts that sets the REALITY of what womanhood is "back."
 
jallman said:
Thats all true for the woman who WANTS to be a mother. When a woman doesn't want to be a mother, that gift of reproduction is turned into a burden she is saddled
Unless she gets pregnant by rape--no one is forced into pregnancy.

with by a bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control her.
Niiiiiiiiiice....see what the contracepting/abortive mentality turns children into? Thanks for demonstrating so clearly how human life can be reduced to wretched burdens simply by how you CHOOSE to view it. I, on the other hand, choose to see life (my life and the lives of others) as opportunity to better myself and make a difference in the word.
 
Felicity said:
Unless she gets pregnant by rape--no one is forced into pregnancy.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care how you try to guilt trip the issue.

Niiiiiiiiiice....see what the contracepting/abortive mentality turns children into? Thanks for demonstrating so clearly how human life can be reduced to wretched burdens simply by how you CHOOSE to view it. I, on the other hand, choose to see life (my life and the lives of others) as opportunity to better myself and make a difference in the word.

Yes yes because science is soooo subjective and open to opinion :roll:

And I choose to see my life and others as opportunity to better myself and others...I am not going to be guilted into giving nonsentient mass of cells more priority than the woman who is supporting it biologically.
 
jallman said:
Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care how you try to guilt trip the issue.
It is consent to the "possibility."



Yes yes because science is soooo subjective and open to opinion :roll:
And where is there any science in your "bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control?" :confused:

I am not going to be guilted .
Feeling guilty, jallman?:(
 
Felicity said:
It is consent to the "possibility."

Consent is not given to possibilities.

And where is there any science in your "bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control?" :confused:

Oh sweet chubby jesus. I am not going to get side-tracked by more of your obtuse rhetorical questioning. You knew exactly what I was saying.

Feeling guilty, jallman?:([/QUOTE]

No, not at all. Just commenting on how your people operate.
 
DENYING that fertility is a gift of womanhood is an attempt to make a woman less. Many women do it to themselves through purposefully cutting themselves off from that empowering gift.

You are still diminishing those women who choose not to have children and that's archaic and unacceptable. Having children is not empowering, nor is the ability to. It certainly is not fulfilling to everyone. The abusive mother has been 'gifted'? Hardly. She's just fertile.
The fact of women's fertility is a BONUS for our gender--an HONOR--a thing to be REVERED rather than CASTRATED as so many do with drugs and surgery. When you diminish the unique ability women have, you strip that "specialness" from them
How is my take on this^^ screwing with what you said? I have friends that, because they do not want any kids, had tubals. They're no less special than anyone else, yet you imply they are. Nor are those who take birth control to delay or prevent having kids, yet you say they are.
You have claimed that because I and others sought out medical support for infertility, we've been messing with 'natural' progression, so which is it? Are we less because we messed with the inability to use this so-called 'gift' or ungifted because it doesn't work?
Our uterus is not a think tank and it's not what holds our personalities, our goals or our spirit. It's an organ. Sometimes one that does not work, needs to be removed or isn't needed. And the 'gift' you speak of is worthless if either it is not wanted or there's no man to complete its primary function. Besides, I don't believe any biological entity is a 'gift' as that implies religious connotations, which I do not subscribe to. And, had the treatments I sought not worked, I certainly would not consider myself any less 'feminine' or 'ungifted'.
So....when going out all dressed up, do you apply makeup to your uterus or is it pretty enough to show off 'al natural'?:mrgreen:
 
jallman said:
Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care how you try to guilt trip the issue.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. In fact you can be consenting and in fact begging to the Gods that be that you get pregnant to the point where you are standing on your head post coitus in a mad attempt to control something over which we will most likely never have total control. That is the nature of reproduction. Even in vitro won't work for every woman. Whether conception is a blessing or a curse is all in the eye of the beholder.

That's why I think as long as men are able to be held financially beholden to their children till they are 18 we can at least expect mother's to be physically beholden till birth. As long as the mother is healthy pregnancy for 9 months is hardly the huge deal it's made out to be and certainly if men and women can be forced into 18 years of financial support then women can be expected to cough up 9 months of bodily resources.

If ever there are hospitals filled to the brim with healthy babies that nobody wants I might consider thinking differently but that currently is not the case.

I wouldn't support my son being a dead beat dad and I'm certainly not gonna lend any support to a daughter who rants and raves about some mythical constitutional right to kill a human in her uterus.

You can reduce it all down to a cold clinical science and take away all the humanity involved with being human but I for one am glad that my conscious would never allow me to do that.
 
talloulou said:
That's why I think as long as men are able to be held financially beholden to their children till they are 18 we can at least expect mother's to be physically beholden till birth. As long as the mother is healthy pregnancy for 9 months is hardly the huge deal it's made out to be and certainly if men and women can be forced into 18 years of financial support then women can be expected to cough up 9 months of bodily resources.

But men are not irrevocably held to support, why should women be?

talloulou said:
If ever there are hospitals filled to the brim with healthy babies that nobody wants I might consider thinking differently but that currently is not the case.

Maybe not but the foster care system is full of them.


talloulou said:
I wouldn't support my son being a dead beat dad and I'm certainly not gonna lend any support to a daughter who rants and raves about some mythical constitutional right to kill a human in her uterus.

Mythical? Last I checked it was law.
 
Purple said:
But men are not irrevocably held to support, why should women be?
Yes they are. In what state can men "opt out" of paying child support just because they, "don't wanna?":roll:



Maybe not but the foster care system is full of them.

No the foster care system is full of older children the majority of whom were taken from their parents due to neglect or crime.

There is no building anywhere in the US full of healthy babies under the age of 6 months waiting for adoption. If you know of one I have missed pleased by all means point it out.




Mythical? Last I checked it was law.
Really? Which lines of the consitution exactly can be reasonably interpreted as a right to abortion?:roll:
 
There is an approval process for sex change operations and one can be denied. Given that, I see no reason why there couldn't be more restrictions placed on abortion and perhaps a screening process for justification.
 
talloulou said:
Yes they are. In what state can men "opt out" of paying child support just because they, "don't wanna?":roll:

Nice eyeroll by the way, always a mature response!

http://www.resource4familylaw.com/topics/gettingchildsupport.html

The Deadbeat Dad program refers to parents who continually dodge their financial obligations. According the Federal Office of Child Support, $96 million worth of child support went unpaid in 2003, 68% of which was arrears, or debt that accumulates when payments are missed.

talloulou said:
No the foster care system is full of older children the majority of whom were taken from their parents due to neglect or crime.

And your proof to back up this statement is where?

talloulou said:
Really? Which lines of the consitution exactly can be reasonably interpreted as a right to abortion?:roll:

Ah once again the eyeroll, how cute you are!

I only said it was a law, I never said it was stated in the constitution.

Though it should be.
 
Purple said:
Nice eyeroll by the way, always a mature response!

http://www.resource4familylaw.com/topics/gettingchildsupport.html

The Deadbeat Dad program refers to parents who continually dodge their financial obligations. According the Federal Office of Child Support, $96 million worth of child support went unpaid in 2003, 68% of which was arrears, or debt that accumulates when payments are missed.

Yeah they are commiting a "crime" by not paying. In many states their paychecks will automatically be pulled in order to take money for the back support. It's not something they get to do legally with the support of the law and the land unlike abortion.



And your proof to back up this statement is where?
Visit any foster care website for any state and read the stories.




Ah once again the eyeroll, how cute you are!

I only said it was a law, I never said it was stated in the constitution right.

Though it should be.
I said "mythical constitutional right" and you seemed to negate that.
 
ngdawg said:
You are still diminishing those women who choose not to have children and that's archaic and unacceptable.
Hypothetically...why does it need to be "archaic and unacceptable?" Had history progressed differently--had the role of women been appropriately valued in our society--had human beings and life been deemed precious, unique, irrepeatable and irreplacable--as every individual OUGHT to be viewed, do you think women's fertility would be "diminished" as I have outlined? Do you think if life was valued as it ought--ALL life--women would be at war with their fertility?

Or do you think women would be viewed as of preeminant importance? And to your point--would women be drawn to experience that which elevates the sex to a unique position? Even infertile women would benefit from a greater degree of respect that could be attained via respect for the fertility and other unique gifts of women.

Same thing for the "abusive mother"--would that woman be rare if all life was valued as it ought?

Okay--so maybe I'm being a pollyanna and envisioning something a tad beyond what is realistic. But hey--it was okay for John Lennon to "Imagine"--I am imagining a reality as I believe it ought to be.

Do you get what I am saying now? Not what "is"--what "ought to be"--what "could be."


You have claimed that because I and others sought out medical support for infertility, we've been messing with 'natural' progression, so which is it? Are we less because we messed with the inability to use this so-called 'gift' or ungifted because it doesn't work?
I have no problem with fertility treatments that do not produce life that goes to waste by sitting in frozen vats or are "selectively terminated" or are "used" as if life was just a means to an end.

Our uterus is not a think tank and it's not what holds our personalities, our goals or our spirit. It's an organ.
It's an organ that men don't have. It is unique to woman.

Sometimes one that does not work, needs to be removed or isn't needed. And the 'gift' you speak of is worthless if either it is not wanted or there's no man to complete its primary function.
Just as I claim in my pro-life argument that the "functionality" of the human person is irrelevant, I claim the "functionality" of the uterus et al is irrelevant. It is the bigger philosophical issue that is relevant.

Besides, I don't believe any biological entity is a 'gift' as that implies religious connotations, which I do not subscribe to.
Okay--call it a power--an ability--a defining element....

And, had the treatments I sought not worked, I certainly would not consider myself any less 'feminine' or 'ungifted'.
Nor would I. You are woman (hear us roar!:mrgreen: )
So....when going out all dressed up, do you apply makeup to your uterus or is it pretty enough to show off 'al natural'?:mrgreen:
eeewww. I used to work in a nursing home....makes me think of old ladies with prolapsed uteruses....Not pretty.:shock:
 
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talloulou said:
Yeah they are commiting a "crime" by not paying. In many states their paychecks will automatically be pulled in order to take money for the back support. It's not something they get to do legally with the support of the law and the land unlike abortion.

Yes it is a crime for a man not to support his child but nowhere but where is the law that says he has to support a fetus? Why should women be held to a different law?
Men aren't required to provide support during pregancy. Why should a woman?

talloulou said:
Visit any foster care website for any state and read the stories.

If you are going to use something a "proof" then you need to site it, not expect me to go looking for your proof to your argument. But let me tell you now, don't bother. Instead tell me why the mommies and daddies of those kids who were once precious gifts didn't keep them and treasure them for what they are?
Maybe because the mommies and daddies that had them weren't ready to have children. Do you think that those kids feel like "gifts" as they are shuffled around from home to home until they are 18 and then thrown out of the system to make due on their own? With no support system, no family?

talloulou said:
I said "mythical constitutional right" and you seemed to negate that.

Aren't all laws based on the constitution? Isn't that the point that the constitution is the basis of the laws of our land?
 
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Purple said:
Yes it is a crime for a man not to support his child but nowhere but where is the law that says he has to support a fetus? Why should women be held to a different law?
Men aren't required to provide support during pregancy. Why should a woman?
Because pregnancy only applies to women. Men don't get pregnant. They don't bleed every month as well. Men and women can not be held equally accountable for nourishing a fetus. But there are a variety of laws that affect men and women differently. Women don't have to register for the draft when they turn 18.




Maybe because the mommies and daddies that had them weren't ready to have children. Do you think that those kids feel like "gifts" as they are shuffled around from home to home until they are 18 and then thrown out of the system to make due on their own? With no support system, no family?
Are you suggesting these children would prefer to have never been born? Keeping abortion legal doesn't ensure that only good parents have kids.



Aren't all laws based on the consitition? Isn't that the point that the constitution is the basis of the laws of our land?

Roe vs. Wade was a radical interpretation of the US constitution and a prime example of legislating from the bench.
 
talloulou said:
Because pregnancy only applies to women. Men don't get pregnant. They don't bleed every month as well. Men and women can not be held equally accountable for nourishing a fetus. But there are a variety of laws that affect men and women differently. Women don't have to register for the draft when they turn 18.

It takes a man to get a woman pregnant does it not? So why shouldn't a man be held accountable for the pregnancy?

talloulou said:
Are you suggesting these children would prefer to have never been born? Keeping abortion legal doesn't ensure that only good parents have kids.

Actually yes, I am. I would bet money that some of those kids would say that they wish that they had never been born.
And you are right, abortion does not ensure that children are only born into ideal situtations but it does cut down on the children born into bad situtations.

talloulou said:
Roe vs. Wade was a radical interpretation of the US constitution and a prime example of legislating from the bench.

That's just your opinion not fact. I happen to be of the opinion that it is a brilliant piece of legislation.
 
Purple said:
That's just your opinion not fact. I happen to be of the opinion that it is a brilliant piece of legislation.

That's funny on a variety of levels! :rofl
 
talloulou said:
That's funny on a variety of levels! :rofl

Once again the :rofl used as debate technique.

Thanks talloulou, you made my day!
 
I'd only like to add that NDawg's perceptions are dead on the money; and the response to her astute observations from other females on the thread is troubling, to say the least.

As I mentioned in my original theory, society pits females against each other by devaluing them as they mature, unlike men, who accrue value.

In this atmosphere, women's lives become a desperate and ultimately futile struggle to maintain their positions in society, to hold on to their status, their value.
However, when the primary indicators of a woman's value are beauty and fertility (aka, "youth"), women are ultimately expendable, interchangable, and can be easily replaced when they lose these so-called "assets", with one of the millions of other women in the world who possess these same "assets", who are attractive and capable of bearing children.

A person only has real value if their assets- their virtues- are not something they will quickly and inevitably outgrow (ie, youthful looks and fertility, both of which are already in decline by the time a woman graduates college and grows her wisdom teeth).
A person should be valued for what they do, and for who they are inside; their minds, their personal strength, their wit, cleverness and acumen, their diligence and conscientiousness, their generosity of spirit, their capacity to love others, the hard-earned wisdom they've accumulated over years of living.
These things increase over time.
A society that values these qualities in women (as it does in men) is a society that truly values women as human beings.
In such a society, women would not have to constantly compete with each other for "status"- the prettiest, the sexiest, the best mother, the best wife, the most feminine- because the qualities they would be valued for would be unique to them (unlike physical attractiveness, unlike fertility, unlike conventional "femininity"), and so they could not be easily replaced.
And the qualities they would be valued for would be lasting qualities that increased as they matured and aged, so they would not be routinely displaced.

Society's perception of females as being primarily valuable and utile as mothers or as sex objects is hurtful to women as they age, and lose both their superficial "beauty" and ultimately, their fertility as well.
By the time women approach middle age (the age, coincidentally, that men are presumed to be entering their prime, seasoned and experienced, suited to running a company or a nation in a way that younger men are not), their value to society has decreased to nil.

Although biological sex is an undeniable reality, gender roles are a social construct. And not a very healthy one, I don't think, for most women.
I will concede that they are fine for some (those who claim to like traditional prescribed gender roles and feel comfortable in them).
But they are overly constricting for those who do not wish to be defined by their (ever-diminishing) looks and fertility.

Some people wish to be seen as people first, men and women second (or third, or fourth, or tenth, or...).
Some people wish to be defined by what they believe and what they do, not by who they are in relation to others (mother, wife, girlfriend) or by which type of genitalia they happen to be sporting.
Allow us that.
Allow us to recluse ourselves from your "competition", from your ranking system, your judgement.
I don't perceive looks or fertility as indicators of human value. Don't tell me I must.
My value system is not yours.
And this goes for other people as well.
Our ideas of parenting, of ethics, of morality, of humanity, are obviously irreconcilably different.
In my view, a woman has no obligation to bear children simply because she is a woman, simply because she is capable of doing so.
In my view, a woman's ability or inability, inclination or disinclination to carry a pregnancy to term indicates absolutely nothing about her value as a human being, as a woman, or even as a mother to her existing children.
Can you possibly understand this?

The things you value aren't things that I value.
This being the case, why not just recluse me (and all others who do not share your values or your belief in prescribed gender roles, in women's biological "duties" or obligations)?

You could, for instance, decide something like: "I believe that women have certain biological duties and obligations. Fulfilling these duties is what gives women value. Terminating a pregnancy is something I could never do, because it would compromise my perception of myself; it would devalue me as a woman. It would cause me to lose my self esteem and become worthless, in my own eyes as well as in the rest of society's. But if another woman does not feel compromised or devalued by terminating an unwanted pregnancy, if it does not cause her to lose her self-esteem or become worthless in her own eyes, and if she doesn't care that society at large deems her to be "immoral" and worthless... then why stop her? Why even judge her? What's it to me?"

This is called tolerance.
It's one of those lasting qualities I was talking about, one that I value in myself and in others.
 
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This is not about valuing women for their ability to breed. It's about women who are pregnant and whether or not they should kill the developing human in their womb. It's not about telling women their only value is their fertility. I have no problem with women who decide to never have children. But there is a big difference between deciding never to have children and getting pregnant and then dealing with it by taking a life that you have already brought into the world.
 
talloulou said:
So if he refused to be a father to a child he created you wouldn't be disappointed? If he told you, "You're not really a grandfather because I didn't want that kid and I'm not ready for that kid so despite that kids existence I'm gonna ignore him? You wouldn't be ashamed that you had raised a man like that? :roll:

This is why it gets hard to argue with hypothetical situations; my knee jerk response is, I couldn't give a rat's arse about being a grandfather, because I don't want to be a father, so no, I wouldn't care if my son didn't want to make me a grandfather. But if I imagine having this conversation with my son, I honestly think that my son's happiness and well-being, my son's ability to reach all of his potential as a human being (because my son would, of course, be an incredible genius just like his old man :cool: ) would be more important to me than any children my son might have had, if he had chosen to be a father at any given time.

I will say, though, that if the girl wanted to keep the child and my son did not, I wouldn't let him ignore the child. He would pay for that child, he would help the mother, and he would do what he could to be a father in some small way, assuming the girl wanted him to be. I would not let him walk away completely if his girlfriend wanted to raise the child.
 
talloulou said:
It's not about telling women their only value is their fertility. .
I hope it is evident that what I have been saying about the gift of fertility and its empowering nature is in no way suggesting that fertility is a woman's ONLY value. The ability of woman to carry and bear life is something so definative of woman (in contrast to man--it's what woman can do that man cannot) that the specific DEvaluing of women's fertility leads to a marginalized view of the value of women in general and is manifested in myriad ways in our society. One way is the disregard for life in general as evidenced in the acceptance and active promotion of an act of killing--namely abortion.
 
Felicity said:
YIKES!!!! Exactly what I'm talkin' about when I say Sanger's/PP's influence on the perception of women's fertility is ANTI-WOMAN! The fact of women's fertility is a BONUS for our gender--an HONOR--a thing to be REVERED rather than CASTRATED as so many do with drugs and surgery. When you diminish the unique ability women have, you strip that "specialness" from them. "Mere breeders"????? There is nothing "mere" about the gift of fertility. It is the perception that fertility is somehow a curse or illness rather than a supreme privilege that diminishes women in our society!

Please note that the comment you're replying to was my understanding of talloulou's view of women; it is not mine. She is asking me about how I would treat my children, not in terms of their intelligence, maturity, success, failure, potential -- nothing but whether or not they have kids. That is seeing people merely as breeders. She said that she could not fall for a man who was pro-choice, for a man who would not want to have children; that is seeing a man only as a breeder. Hence, my comment to her.

You're right; fertility is a bonus for a woman. It is a special gift. But like all gifts, it may be turned down without making the person any less of a person. A woman may refuse to utilize her special ability, and still be as much of a woman, as special, as wonderful, as she would be if she had had children. Because fertility is not what makes a woman a woman; it is completely irrelevant to her femininity, to her personhood. A woman is a woman, whether she is a mother or not.

Felicity said:
CoffeeSaint--I have kinda a personal question, but I am curious as to the thinking behind such a decision....

...If a "family" with children was never something you and your wife thought you would come to be--ever, what is the motivation for getting married? Why not just live together in a committed relationship? Is it simply a financial agreement for tax purposes and inheritance? I'm not being facetious--I am curious--I want to understand the thouight process.

We were together for 10 years before we got married. We got married for a few reasons: one was that we were tired of dealing with the strange looks and pointed questions from our family -- well, my family; hers never made an issue of it -- and from my students, and from anyone else when I talked about "my girlfriend" or my "partner" or some other term I was forced to use just because she wasn't my wife. One was that we thought it would be nice to have a ceremony, to exchange rings (our rings are bad A$$; they're both replicas of the One Ring from the Lord of the Rings:rock ), and to have a honeymoon. The main reason was that my wife had had to undergo surgery a few months before, and we didn't like the idea that I wouldn't have been able to make medical decisions should the worst have happened. We also wanted to be able to include her on my insurance.
 
1069 said:
other females on the thread
It's okay...you can talk to me personally, I won't bite--I promise (unless you bite first, then I might nip a little, but I'll feel guilty about it in the morning:lol: )


... society pits females against each other by devaluing them as they mature, unlike men, who accrue value.

In this atmosphere, women's lives become a desperate and ultimately futile struggle to maintain their positions in society, to hold on to their status, their value.
However, when the primary indicators of a woman's value are beauty and fertility (aka, "youth"), women are ultimately expendable, interchangable, and can be easily replaced when they lose these so-called "assets", with one of the millions of other women in the world who possess these same "assets", who are attractive and capable of bearing children.
This is, in my opinion, a faulty reading of the value of fertility. Of course it is the WHOLE person that should be valued. The fertility of woman is a part of that reality of the whole person that is woman and it should be respected as such. This reality is true for all women--those who can or do or can't or don't effect that fertility--it is women who bear the ability written in the form of their bodies. Fragmenting people into various "assets" to be valued or not valued is shattering the whole person. That is what is occurring when a woman is detached from the fact of her fertility. Her fertility as a fact of her personhood--to strive to suppress that fact of "she" through contraceptive techniques that, in essence, chemically neuter her, denies an aspect of her whole person--specifically the reality of the fertility of women--and thus diminishes the whole reality of who she is.



A person only has real value if their assets- their virtues-
I do not believe that "virtues" and "assets" are synonymous. People are of value due to not what they HAVE or can GIVE (assets), they are of value because of the dignity of who they are as a whole. You say as much in a few lines ...

A person should be valued for what they do, and for who they are inside; their minds, their personal strength, their wit, cleverness and acumen, their diligence and conscientiousness, their generosity of spirit, their capacity to love others, the hard-earned wisdom they've accumulated over years of living.
ABSOLUTELY--these are things that are "virtuous."

These things increase over time.
Indeed--and fertility does as well. From the womb of woman GENERATIONS are born. Fertility does not exist and then disappear. It is a constant reality of womanhood--and even when a woman doesn't or can't effect her fertility--it is still a fact of her reality as woman.


And the qualities they would be valued for would be lasting qualities that increased as they matured and aged, so they would not be routinely displaced.
Exactly.

Society's perception of females as being primarily valuable and utile as mothers or as sex objects is hurtful to women as they age, and lose both their superficial "beauty" and ultimately, their fertility as well.
Yes. When the reality of womanhood is fragmented into "parts" or "assets" that can be exalted (such as beauty and youth) the flip-side is that the individual "parts" can also be rejected. But if womanhood is valued as a whole--as her whole natural being--one that is young and old, beautiful and wise, fertile and infertile--she is not rejected because some "part" doesn't "measure up" or is "unwanted."
 
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It's okay...you can talk to me personally, I won't bite--I promise (unless you bite first, then I might nip a little, but I'll feel guilty about it in the morning )

You are not the sole or even primary intended recipient of my message.
Tallou and I have recently been discussing our beliefs about prescribed gender roles on another thread. I decided to take this opportunity to expound upon my position, since the thread in which we were previously discussing the issue had a different topic altogether.
 
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