Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

So you accept theft then if you think its a good thing? Help me out with that. ITs theft.. but its good because the government needs to do it?

Is there a way the that we could have a civilized society and NOT have the government provide courts, police, and defense forces to protect person, property, and individual liberty. If there is, I'm totally all ears.

However, I support allowing any any portion of the population to leave the political body and establish their own system of government if they wish. So they can avoid the theft by doing that, if they wish.

Your argument more easily would support social safety nets... because the resulting plagues, riots, civil unrest, crime.. that results without these safety nets (and we know it happens because we have seen in both in this country during our history and in contemporary countries without safety nets) leads to civilization ceasing to exist.

One only has to look at the number of dictatorships that have come about because of civil unrest from lack of food, medicine, etc.

We have tried to operate such safety nets with donations.. but it didn't work..thats why as our country grew and became more industrialized, so to did the wealth and breadth of the safety net.

I'm not opposed to social safety nets, but they should be contributed to voluntarily, not with confiscated tax funds. That makes the government into nothing more than a robber, who is taking money from Peter to hand out to Paul.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No. Sorry.

You are aware that the articles of confederation specified a mechanism for amendment, are you not?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No, it was offered as a replacement to the AOC. The AOC is not a legally standing document.

The Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles, not a replacement.eace

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

BS-without the war on poverty, America would be better. there is abundant charity in this country without needing the vote buying dependency creating schemes that the DNC has foisted upon us and too many cowardly Republicans have bought into or at least allowed to persist

Actual.. BS to you. Your "there is abundant charity in this country".. has been tried.. its been found very much lacking. That's why we have the social programs that we do.. because local charity doesn't have the resources nor the infrastructure to get charity to the folks that need it.

That's a reality from the get go.. because government programs didn't develop in a vacuum.. they developed because local charity was not getting the job done.

"Vote buying dependency schemes that the DNC has foisted upon us"... you're kidding right? Because if not.. you need a reality check. I live in a red state.. republican as all get out. We have had a republican controlled congress, a republican governor, and republican senators for more than two decades. and GUESS WHAT... for every dollar we send to the federal government in taxes.. we get MORE than we paid in in the form of Medicaid, snap, tanf and education etc.
And so it goes for a whole bunch of other red states. And the reality is that BLUE states.. like NY, and California... give more in taxes than they get back in welfare from the federal government.

That doesn't fit well with your "vote buying" narrative...

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles, not a replacement.eace

So you know about the amendment process as outlined in the Articles?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You are aware that the articles of confederation specified a mechanism for amendment, are you not?

I have no doubt of that, but they were Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.eace

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Is there a way the that we could have a civilized society and NOT have the government provide courts, police, and defense forces to protect person, property, and individual liberty. If there is, I'm totally all ears.

Nope.. and neither is there a civilized society that does not have a social safety net provided by the respective government. Those social safety nets are in part the glue that holds the civilization together and alleviates the need for more police, courts and defense forces.

I'm not opposed to social safety nets, but they should be contributed to voluntarily, not with confiscated tax funds. That makes the government into nothing more than a robber, who is taking money from Peter to hand out to Paul

.

Again the cognitive disconnect... so if social safety nets should be contributed to voluntarily...

they why should we not have a system that we can contribute voluntarily to military, police, courts etc?

You claimed they are BOTH theft since they both take from one and give to another...

so why should one be voluntary but the other mandatory?

This disconnect in your argument is why its faulty and invalid.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

So you know about the amendment process as outlined in the Articles?

What I know is that when the Constitutional Convention met, its charter was to amend the Articles.eace

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles, not a replacement.eace

Yes, you already said that false statement.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I have no doubt of that, but they were Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.eace

Did these articles have contain any prohibition against a state leaving?

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

What I know is that when the Constitutional Convention met, its charter was to amend the Articles.eace

And did this amendment process follow that specified in the articles?

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Again the cognitive disconnect... so if social safety nets should be contributed to voluntarily...

they why should we not have a system that we can contribute voluntarily to military, police, courts etc?

Do you think such a system is viable? If so, I'd be okay with it.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Losing respect v. starting a war. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me. Why would any rational person pick starting a war?

Because if the south's succession had stood.. (and by the way.. Carolina left the union prior to Lincoln even being inaugurated) ... it would have meant the end of the united states.. because such a division would have made the united states too weak internationally.

The facts are that the south was content to be in the union as long as it gots its way politically.. when it was not able to get its own way all the time.. it left the union.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Do you think such a system is viable? If so, I'd be okay with it.

No.,. its been proven not to be.. as well as relying on voluntary charity to provide a safety net.

The two (safety nets, and police, military strength) are not mutually exclusive..

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No.,. its been proven not to be.. as well as relying on voluntary charity to provide a safety net.

The two (safety nets, and police, military strength) are not mutually exclusive..

I'm not sure they're the same. There can only be a single arbiter of the law. But there can be multiple agencies that offer aid to those in need. I think that's the difference.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yes, you already said that false statement.

The point really isn't arguable.eace

Constitution of the United States - A History

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Obviously, I don't condone slavery, as it is an initiation of aggression, but the sovereign peoples of the several states created the union, delegating to it certain powers. The sovereign peoples of each state are fully within their rights to take back the powers they, in their sovereign capacity, loaned to the union.

Except thats not how our constitution was set up... when the states entered into that union.. they delegated certain powers... which they agreed to give up. They cannot break a contract that was made simply because NOW they don't like the deal.

If a contract that is agreed upon is never to be enforced.. then its not worth being a contract...

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Did these articles have contain any prohibition against a state leaving?

I think "perpetual union" says it all.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The only difference between supporting the south and supporting the north when talking about slavery is that by supporting the north you support the enslavement of more people.

And up is down and left is right and yellow is brown and the USA is really the Soviet Union.

I guess its Twilight Zone time and the guy with the cigarette must be Rod Serling. :roll:

You guys on the libertarian right really do NOT live in the same world as the rest of us.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

And did this amendment process follow that specified in the articles?

Constitution of the United States - A Historyeace

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Except thats not how our constitution was set up... when the states entered into that union.. they delegated certain powers... which they agreed to give up. They cannot break a contract that was made simply because NOW they don't like the deal.

If a contract that is agreed upon is never to be enforced.. then its not worth being a contract...

A sovereign state can always leave a treaty. That's what sovereignty means.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Constitution of the United States - A Historyeace

I have not idea how this answers my question. You claim that the constitution was adopted as an amendment to the articles. The articles specified that any amendment had to be unanimous. However, the constitution said it would take effect when 9 states ratified. Thus, it clearly was not an amendment, because I couldn't be unless all 13 states ratified.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I'm not sure they're the same. There can only be a single arbiter of the law. But there can be multiple agencies that offer aid to those in need. I think that's the difference.

What I mean by not being mutually exclusive is that having a peaceful nation depends on a strong military, courts and cops. BUT not solely on those.. because it needs a strong safety net that alleviates the need for strong militaries, courts and cops.

One only has to look at the civil unrest in other countries. the vast majority stem from folks not having access to education, healthcare, safe food and water, and mobility (ie. very little safety net)... So these countries expend way more money on security.. When they could spend less on a social safety net etc thus preventing the unrest.. (which means less taxes) rather than on a military to put down the civil unrest..

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

And up is down and left is right and yellow is brown and the USA is really the Soviet Union.

I guess its Twilight Zone time and the guy with the cigarette must be Rod Serling. :roll:

You guys on the libertarian right really do NOT live in the same world as the rest of us.

You might not want to recognize it as such, but political slavery is slavery. The north was not fighting against slavery, but instead fighting for political slavery.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

A sovereign state can always leave a treaty. That's what sovereignty means.

Actually no... states break treaties at their own peril. Many a war was started by breaking a treaty.

The States entered into a binding agreement when they ratified the constitution and agreed to be a united republic. They are not free.. any more than you are.. to break that contract simply because they want to.