Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You mistaken me as someone that responds to such baseless charges as being a traitor of a nation.

But takes no exception or offense in defending them.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

But takes no exception or offense in defending them.

Obviously, I don't condone slavery, as it is an initiation of aggression, but the sovereign peoples of the several states created the union, delegating to it certain powers. The sovereign peoples of each state are fully within their rights to take back the powers they, in their sovereign capacity, loaned to the union.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Obviously, I don't condone slavery, as it is an initiation of aggression, but the sovereign peoples of the several states created the union, delegating to it certain powers. The sovereign peoples of each state are fully within their rights to take back the powers they, in their sovereign capacity, loaned to the union.

in order to preserve their "freedom" to enslave others and deny them "liberty. :doh

And you folks on the far right have no problem defending that. :roll::shock:

 

[scatt]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

in order to preserve their "freedom" to enslave others and deny them "liberty. :doh

And you folks on the far right have no problem defending that. :roll::shock:

They were not considered human, so to them, it was not "others.".

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Obviously, I don't condone slavery, as it is an initiation of aggression, but the sovereign peoples of the several states created the union, delegating to it certain powers. The sovereign peoples of each state are fully within their rights to take back the powers they, in their sovereign capacity, loaned to the union.

Sorry, but the SCOTUS doesn't see it that way. The union is perpetual and indissoluble.:2usflag:

[h=3]Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/h]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White‎
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The case involved a claim by the ...

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

in order to preserve their "freedom" to enslave others and deny them "liberty. :doh

And you folks on the far right have no problem defending that. :roll::shock:

No, they have no right to enslave others, nor am I defending the south.

I'm not talking about the south. I'm saying that the sovereign peoples of each state entered into a compact, but never relinquished their sovereignty. Under contemporary international law, they understood that they were free to take back the powers they delegated to the union. In fact, several ratification conventions specifically said that they were ratifying with the understanding that they could withdraw their delegated powers if they so chose.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Sorry, but the SCOTUS doesn't see it that way. The union is perpetual and indissoluble.:2usflag:

[h=3]Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/h]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White‎
Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869) was a significant case argued before the United States Supreme Court in 1869. The case involved a claim by the ...

No kidding, the union thinks that it's sovereign, and the peoples of the several states aren't? Well knock me over with a feather.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

But takes no exception or offense in defending them.

The charges you speak of are erroneous. For one, in order to be a traitor there has to be a betrayal of some sort. The parties in question made it clear they wanted out of the union and were simply practicing their rights as free men to walk away from a union of men. It is as much of a betrayal as two people that were friends deciding to no longer hang out, meaning, there was no betrayal to speak of. Second, any justified governance rest upon the consent of the governed, which at that point in time was proclaimed as the truth for nearly ninety years, and by the actions of the north demonstrated that in fact the government rested upon force as all the governments that came before it. It is clear by what I have just said that the only traitor was the north.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No kidding, the union thinks that it's sovereign, and the people of the several states aren't? Well knock me over with a feather.

"The Constitution is what the judges say it is." --Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes:2usflag:

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The charges you speak of are erroneous. For one, in order to be a traitor there has to be a betrayal of some sort. The parties in question made it clear they wanted out of the union and were simply practicing their rights as free men to walk away from a union of men. It is as much of a betrayal as two people that were friends deciding to no longer hang out, meaning, there was no betrayal to speak of. Second, any justified governance rest upon the consent of the governed, which at that point in time was proclaimed as the truth for nearly ninety years, and by the actions of the north demonstrated that in fact the government rested upon force as all the governments that came before it. It is clear by what I have just said that the only traitor was the north.

I love how you guys on the far right will go through a series of mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics in order to defend the freedom to practice slavery.

 

[scatt]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I love how you guys on the far right will go through a series of mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics in order to defend the freedom to practice slavery.

You literally support slavery right now. And you are a democrat, or a left winger, to use your own words.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

"The Constitution is what the judges say it is." --Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes:2usflag:

Of course, the federal government is going to do whatever it wants.

However, at the time of ratification, the peoples of the several states never relinquished sovereignty. It has though, been taken away from them at the point of a bayonet.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Of course, the federal government is going to do whatever it wants.

However, at the time of ratification, the peoples of the several states never relinquished sovereignty. It has though, been taken away from them at the point of a bayonet.

No. The Articles of Confederation called for a perpetual union.

Perpetual Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union‎
The concept of a Union of the American States originated gradually during the ... It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these ...

The Perpetual Union is a feature of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, which established the United States of America as a national entity. Under American constitutional law, this concept means that states are not permitted to withdraw from the Union.eace

 

[orphani]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

On the issue of taxes it seems to me that society as a whole should decide what it is willing to fund, and than decide how to pay for it. I believe that's how our Democratic system should function. We need to have open and honest discussions about the role of government, and the responsibility of its citizens within that social order, not dogmatic, prejudicial over simplifications that serve an individuals special interests, but have a limited basis in factual reality i.e...the rich are evil, and the poor deserve their poverty; using two examples. The individual, and the collective are intertwined to the betterment, or deprivation of society as a whole.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I love how you guys on the far right will go through a series of mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics in order to defend the freedom to practice slavery.

The only difference between supporting the south and supporting the north when talking about slavery is that by supporting the north you support the enslavement of more people.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No. The Articles of Confederation called for a perpetual union.

Perpetual Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union‎
The concept of a Union of the American States originated gradually during the ... It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these ...

The Perpetual Union is a feature of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, which established the United States of America as a national entity. Under American constitutional law, this concept means that states are not permitted to withdraw from the Union.eace

That argument must assume that the government can get authority from a document that is no longer standing. That is obviously ridiculous, and your argument is thusly immaterial to the matter at hand.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

In either case, money is being taken against your will, so in a sense yes, both are theft.

But the courts, police, and the military are unique services, and can only be provided by the government. Nobody else can arrest, prosecute, and punish criminals. Nobody else can defend the country from invasion. Without a government to secure and defend the person, property, and individual liberty of the people, we would be in a war of all against all and in a might makes right world. Civilization would cease to exists. So I can grudgingly accept that these functions get funded by taxes.

Heck, if we could operate the courts, police, and military on donations, I'd prefer that solution. But we really can't operate without courts, police, and some sort of defense force.

So you accept theft then if you think its a good thing? Help me out with that. ITs theft.. but its good because the government needs to do it?


Your argument more easily would support social safety nets... because the resulting plagues, riots, civil unrest, crime.. that results without these safety nets (and we know it happens because we have seen in both in this country during our history and in contemporary countries without safety nets) leads to civilization ceasing to exist.

One only has to look at the number of dictatorships that have come about because of civil unrest from lack of food, medicine, etc.

We have tried to operate such safety nets with donations.. but it didn't work..thats why as our country grew and became more industrialized, so to did the wealth and breadth of the safety net.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

That argument must assume that the government can get authority from a document that is no longer standing. That is obviously ridiculous, and your argument is thusly immaterial to the matter at hand.

The US Constitution was adopted as an amendment to the Articles of Confederation, which remained in force.eace

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No. The Articles of Confederation called for a perpetual union.

Perpetual Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Union‎
The concept of a Union of the American States originated gradually during the ... It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these ...

The Perpetual Union is a feature of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, which established the United States of America as a national entity. Under American constitutional law, this concept means that states are not permitted to withdraw from the Union.eace

So let me ask you a theoretical question.

When the constitution was ratified, it took effect when 9 states ratified it. At that point those 9 states would be members of the compact established by the constitution. Now lets say that none of the other 4 existing states ratified. Would those 4 states be part of our union, or not?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

So let me ask you a theoretical question.

When the constitution was ratified, it took effect when 9 states ratified it. At that point those 9 states would be members of the compact established by the constitution. Now lets say that none of the other 4 existing states ratified. Would those 4 states be part of our union, or not?

Yes, because the Articles of Confederation remained in force. The US Constitution was adopted as an amendment.eace

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yes, because the Articles of Confederation remained in force. The US Constitution was adopted as an amendment.eace

So, in your opinion, would the non-ratifying states be bound the rules of the articles or by the new constitution?

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yes, because the Articles of Confederation remained in force. The US Constitution was adopted as an amendment.eace

Can you please describe the amendment process that was specified in the articles?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

So, in your opinion, would the non-ratifying states be bound the rules of the articles or by the new constitution?

That question is beyond me.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Can you please describe the amendment process that was specified in the articles?

No. Sorry.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yes, because the Articles of Confederation remained in force. The US Constitution was adopted as an amendment.eace

No, it was offered as a replacement to the AOC. The AOC is not a legally standing document.