Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

If by "effective" you mean utilizing it at a greater level/scale, then yes, those that utilize.depend upon it more should pay more.

Your argument barely works. The rich do not use military services to a great amount than the poor. There is little doubt they will use roads more and other market services, but that wouldn't make up the cost difference between the two groups. Also, considering that the government doesn't calculate how much someone uses a service your argument is based on reasoning not being implemented in the first place. It is essentially a red herring.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Your argument barely works. The rich do not use military services to a great amount than the poor. There is little doubt they will use roads more and other market services, but that wouldn't make up the cost difference between the two groups. Also, considering that the government doesn't calculate how much someone uses a service your argument is based on reasoning not being implemented in the first place. It is essentially a red herring.

I think your answer is in here:

Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1% | Economist Joseph Stiglitz | Vanity Fair

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I think your answer is in here:

Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1% | Economist Joseph Stiglitz | Vanity Fair

The rules of economic globalization are likewise designed to benefit the rich: they encourage competition among countries for business, which drives down taxes on corporations, weakens health and environmental protections, and undermines what used to be viewed as the “core” labor rights, which include the right to collective bargaining.

It's very odd to me to call competition a bad thing. It is undoubtedly true that when you price yourself out of the market competition can be deadly and extremely harmful, but it is also true that competition breeds better results and with it higher wages. I don't buy for a moment that the cause of the problem he is speaking of is from business, but instead the consequence of government policies.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Your argument barely works. The rich do not use military services to a great amount than the poor.

They depend upon it to a much greater extent since they have more wealth to protect....and again not to mention protecting the system where they derive their wealth from.

Why are libertarians so blind to this simple fact?

There is little doubt they will use roads more and other market services, but that wouldn't make up the cost difference between the two groups.

Again, you ignore that the creation of their wealth depends MUCH MORE on the infrastructure.

Also, considering that the government doesn't calculate how much someone uses a service your argument is based on reasoning not being implemented in the first place. It is essentially a red herring.

The argument was not how the govt calculates your tax burden, the argument was on the justification for a progressive tax system.

If you need to walk away from this debate, don't be afraid to do so.....but don't use straw argument.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

It's very odd to me to call competition a bad thing. It is undoubtedly true that when you price yourself out of the market competition can be deadly and extremely harmful, but it is also true that competition breeds better results and with it higher wages. I don't buy for a moment that the cause of the problem he is speaking of is from business, but instead the consequence of government policies.

The govt policies, ie trade rules allowing the undercutting of domestic manufacturing......was produced by and for international corporations.

This red herring/straw of yours that we are against "competition" is crap, I am all for for FAIR trade and FAIR competition within markets......but I am not for either foreign govt subsidized industry OR international corporations coming into the US market and wiping out domestic industry because of unfair price differences.

 

[jonny5]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

To view the wealth of the bottom 20%, you need a magnifying glass. These are the people conservatives complain aren't paying enough taxes, while they say the top 20% pay too much.

I dont see anything wrong with that. The purpose of taxes is to pay for services. Fairness means equality, therefore everyone should pay equally for the same services. How much someone can afford is therefore irrellevant, as it is with all trade. McDonalds doesnt charge based on wealth. Why should govt?

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

They depend upon it to a much greater extent since they have more wealth to protect....and again not to mention protecting the system where they derive their wealth from

Why are libertarians so blind to this simple fact?

You're shifting around a little bit. The word utilize means the use of something, not the act of depending on something. The military is utilized to the same extent by all parties.

Again, you ignore that the creation of their wealth depends MUCH MORE on the infrastructure.

I don't see why both parties wouldn't depend on it to the same amount for their wealth creation in terms of percentage.

The argument was not how the govt calculates your tax burden, the argument was on the justification for a progressive tax system.

If you need to walk away from this debate, don't be afraid to do so.....but don't use straw argument.

I have no reason to walk away. The justification for your argument depends on a calculation, but you are not calculating anything, but simply guessing the amount difference and then assuming it warrants the cost difference.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I dont see anything wrong with that. The purpose of taxes is to pay for services. Fairness means equality, therefore everyone should pay equally for the same services. How much someone can afford is therefore irrellevant, as it is with all trade. McDonalds doesnt charge based on wealth. Why should govt?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/gover...ly-essential-but-moral-16.html#post1062793660

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You're shifting around a little bit. The word utilize means the use of something, not the act of depending on something. The military is utilized to the same extent by all parties.

Not from the standpoint of wealth protection. We have a standing military protecting the wealth of the US, we USE it to protect ourselves, our wealth, our system, our infrastructure.

I don't see why both parties wouldn't depend on it to the same amount for their wealth creation in terms of percentage.

You don't see that someone with a greater amount is using a system to create wealth on a greater scale?

Really?

I have no reason to walk away. The justification for your argument depends on a calculation, but you are not calculating anything, but simply guessing the amount difference and then assuming it warrants the cost difference.

You are saying there is no cost difference and that a greater amount requires the same amount of protection.

I think the problem is with your math.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

PS....a little perspective for the "save the rich" crowd.

 

[Samhain]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

PS....a little perspective for the "save the rich" crowd.

You should note the the methodology for the last leg of your graph( top 400 households ) is different than the rest. Not really sure why anyone would produce a graph like that.

Tax Policy Center has the top .1% having an effective tax rate of 32.1%

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Not from the standpoint of wealth protection. We have a standing military protecting the wealth of the US, we USE it to protect ourselves, our wealth, our system, our infrastructure.

That wasn't your argument. As I said, you were talking of utilizing the military. I wasn't wrong when I said your argument was incorrect.

You don't see that someone with a greater amount is using a system to create wealth on a greater scale?

Really?

No, I don't see how the rich are creating a greater percentage of their wealth through the system. I would imagine in fact some of them are using it less.

You are saying there is no cost difference and that a greater amount requires the same amount of protection.

I think the problem is with your math.

No, my argument is not dependent on math. You're the one that started to talk of utilizing services to a greater amount, and thus, your argument is dependent on knowing usage amounts. Of course, you don't know these amounts since the government doesn't bother to figure it out. Your argument has nothing at all to do with progressive taxation.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Your numerous strawmen aside, you make the assumption that the economy is zero sum. That's the basis of all class warfare arguments. It's also why the class warfare argument is stupid. Don't be stupid.

No one is assuming that. What is undeniable is that taxing income not spent at a higher rate encourages faster GDP growth in a consumer economy. You are denying that taxing everyone equally would give 90% of us less money to spend in the economy? Consumer spending makes up 70% of GDP.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You should note the the methodology for the last leg of your graph( top 400 households ) is different than the rest. Not really sure why anyone would produce a graph like that.

Tax Policy Center has the top .1% having an effective tax rate of 32.1%

TPC is using a different methodology.

The methodology for the top 400 effective rate is found here:
Tax Rate for Richest 400 Taxpayers Plummeted in Recent Decades, Even as Their Pre-Tax Incomes Skyrocketed — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

 

[Samhain]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

TPC is using a different methodology.

The methodology for the top 400 effective rate is found here:
Tax Rate for Richest 400 Taxpayers Plummeted in Recent Decades, Even as Their Pre-Tax Incomes Skyrocketed — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

I agree, everyone is using different methodologies in totality, but your graph is using two, hence the issue.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

That wasn't your argument. As I said, you were talking of utilizing the military. I wasn't wrong when I said your argument was incorrect.

You are just getting into a pedantic semantic argument. Use, utilize, depend upon...are interchangeable. This does not change the argument.

No, I don't see how the rich are creating a greater percentage of their wealth through the system.

That is not what I said, I am still saying they use, utilize our economic/govt system to a greater degree.

I would imagine in fact some of them are using it less.

Well, there you are.

No, my argument is not dependent on math. You're the one that started to talk of utilizing services to a greater amount, and thus, your argument is dependent on knowing usage amounts. Of course, you don't know these amounts since the government doesn't bother to figure it out. Your argument has nothing at all to do with progressive taxation.

Whatever, scale is just not your thing....and that is OK.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I agree, everyone is using different methodologies in totality, but your graph is using two, hence the issue.

If it bothers you so, then leave off the last data set......I could care less.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

No one is assuming that. What is undeniable is that taxing income not spent at a higher rate encourages faster GDP growth in a consumer economy. You are denying that taxing everyone equally would give 90% of us less money to spend in the economy? Consumer spending makes up 70% of GDP.

How would removing wealth from the economy add wealth to the economy? You could argue that if the government put money in the hands of the poor that market activity would increase, but then, I could make the same argument for common robbery. You can however not make the argument that taxation by itself increases market activity. That is just bizarrely stupid.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Not just any "folks:"

Millionaires ask Congress: Raise our taxes | Reuters

big government liberals who make their money due to leftwing government policies, are willing to pay that price in order to increase their power and wealth. How many of those assholes actually GIVE the government more money (which they can)? Its the power they get from pushing DNC goals that they want.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

And that, sir, is because the income inequality. If the income inequality is less, then the proportion that the rich pay would be lower, too.

that's a silly argument for the current tax system. If those who want more government paid more for it, we'd have less deficits and less wasteful spending

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

How would removing wealth from the economy add wealth to the economy? You could argue that if the government put money in the hands of the poor that market activity would increase, but then, I could make the same argument for common robbery. You can however not make the argument that taxation by itself increases market activity. That is just bizarrely stupid.

Given that anarchy is the norm you would be right. But most of us know that money is required to run a Govt. and yes how you get that money effects the economy and growth. Taking more from those that spend it all will slow growth.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Given that anarchy is the norm you would be right. But most of us know that money is required to run a Govt. and yes how you get that money effects the economy and growth. Taking more from those that spend it all will slow growth.

one thing all you tax hiking class warriors miss is that rich people already understand how much government costs because they pay an inordinate amount of the federal income taxes. Sadly, many voters do not get sufficient feed back because they pay far far less than what they get from the government. constantly demanding that only the "rich" pay more taxes does not educate many of the dependent voters as to the cost of government and only encourages them to demand more and more government since they aren't charged sufficient taxes to deter such spending

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Given that anarchy is the norm you would be right. But most of us know that money is required to run a Govt. and yes how you get that money effects the economy and growth. Taking more from those that spend it all will slow growth.

Thanks for the shift in your argument. You were arguing that taking wealth out of the economy on the upper end increases market activity. Taxation can not increase wealth or market activity by itself, and in fact, can only ever hope to decrease wealth and market activity. I'm sorry the government told you otherwise, but hopefully you know better now.

The funny thing is that welfare does indeed increase market activity, but ironically enough lowers wages and acts as a form of corporate welfare. :lamo

 

[vesper]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

And that, sir, is because the income inequality. If the income inequality is less, then the proportion that the rich pay would be lower, too.

Inequality? You mean the one that pursued an education, went to college, put their life on hold and became established in a career before starting a family? Who becomes successful and then is penalized for it? Why? because there are so many that didn't pursue their education, college or not, many can't even manage to complete high school, had kids before they could provide for them and somehow that is income inequality? Yeah right it's inequality alright just not in the way the left sees it.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Inequality? You mean the one that pursued an education, went to college, put their life on hold and became established in a career before starting a family? Who becomes successful and then is penalized for it? Why? because there are so many that didn't pursue their education, college or not, many can't even manage to complete high school, had kids before they could provide for them and somehow that is income inequality? Yeah right it's inequality alright just not in the way the left sees it.

A Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Lose
doubling down on the wrong inequality story
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/a-mind-is-a-terrible-thing-to-lose/?_r=0

OK, I see that some people are doubling down on the claim that rising inequality is all about education — when what the CBO report drives home is that this is all wrong, the big increase has come from gains at the very top.