Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

[Leo]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Progressive taxation is the norm in every developed and civilised society on earth. I agree with the premise put in the OP, and I am dismayed at the seeming inability of most Americans on these pages to discuss anything outside the concept of party politics.

The basic concept is a simple one, and independent of anything contained in the US Constitution, or any platform of the US republican or Democrate parties. Those least capable of contributing, and most likely to suffer from additional imposts, should bear the smallest burden of taxation. There is nothing intolerable about the very wealthy contributing more to the maintenance of a society that has given them so much. And before anyone talks about how hard the billionaires of this world have worked to amass their fortunes, allow me to remind us all that no one becomes a successful magnate or enrepreneur on a deserted island.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Progressive taxation is the norm in every developed and civilised society on earth. I agree with the premise put in the OP, and I am dismayed at the seeming inability of most Americans on these pages to discuss anything outside the concept of party politics.

The basic concept is a simple one, and independent of anything contained in the US Constitution, or any platform of the US republican or Democrate parties. Those least capable of contributing, and most likely to suffer from additional imposts, should bear the smallest burden of taxation. There is nothing intolerable about the very wealthy contributing more to the maintenance of a society that has given them so much. And before anyone talks about how hard the billionaires of this world have worked to amass their fortunes, allow me to remind us all that no one becomes a successful magnate or enrepreneur on a deserted island.

So we should all share with everyone else? You remind me of Obama. Really though, I see nothing moral about the position that some people owe more than others.

 

[vesper]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Progressive taxation is the norm in every developed and civilised society on earth. I agree with the premise put in the OP, and I am dismayed at the seeming inability of most Americans on these pages to discuss anything outside the concept of party politics.

The basic concept is a simple one, and independent of anything contained in the US Constitution, or any platform of the US republican or Democrate parties. Those least capable of contributing, and most likely to suffer from additional imposts, should bear the smallest burden of taxation. There is nothing intolerable about the very wealthy contributing more to the maintenance of a society that has given them so much. And before anyone talks about how hard the billionaires of this world have worked to amass their fortunes, allow me to remind us all that no one becomes a successful magnate or enrepreneur on a deserted island.

Excuse me, but before the U.S. this world never seen such exceptionalism where so many governments before had failed. Just take a look across the pond at what Progressive taxation gets you. All the economies are struggling. What we call poor in this country, are equivalent to their middle class. The French government just passed a huge increase on the wealthy because of feckless things like socialized medicine etc. needing the increase in revenue. The wealthy are fleeing France and heading to Belgium and other places where they are more friendly to those with wealth. We see it happening in certain states in our Union where taxes have become so burdensome those with wealth and talent are fleeing to other states where they are more friendly to them.

The Founders I do believe supported a safety net for the downtrodden at a STATE level to provide for their neighbors in need. It was NEVER intended to be a way of life. Certainly not the bureaucratic boondoggle we have at the Federal level. All of us have failed at one time or another. But none of us has the right to bilk others time and time again for our own poor judgments/choices/lost opportunities.

 

[Vilhelmo]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

So you state a second time that taxes are 'removing money from the economy'. Examples, please.

I mean, if you're so positive that taxes take money out of an economy, then it should be simplicity itself for you to provide examples...so here's your soapbox! Three examples! That's all I ask!

How does Federal taxation remove money from the economy.?

Say you paid your Federal Taxes in cash. The result is that you now have less money & by extension so too does the Private Sector.
The other result is a corresponding increase in the Treasury's Reserve account.
Now you might say that this has only transfered money not removed it from the economy.
Treasury's Fed account balance is irrelevant & has no effect on the economy.
The Fed could increase its account balance by a quadrillion dollars & it would have no effect on the economy.
This is why the Treasury's account is NOT included in the Money Supply.
From the standpoint of the Private Sector, taxation has removed money from the economy.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Are you using the modern definition or the 1787 definition?

Okay, what's the difference?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I have already explained my position. I have no reason to go over the same thing repeatedly with you.

Ha!

Can't do it, can you? Because every single time you think of a use of taxes you think is wasteful, you realize that it's still within the economy. So instead of owning up to your inability to back up your claim, you do what any pre-teen girl would do: "No! I don't have to! Because!"

You shouldn't feel bad, though - no one can come up with much in the way of examples of how taxes "remove wealth from the economy" unless those taxes are sent outside our borders...because that wealth, while it is certainly being moved (or 'redistributed', to use the conservative meme), is not being taken out of the economy, and you know it.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Ha!

Can't do it, can you? Because every single time you think of a use of taxes you think is wasteful, you realize that it's still within the economy. So instead of owning up to your inability to back up your claim, you do what any pre-teen girl would do: "No! I don't have to! Because!"

You shouldn't feel bad, though - no one can come up with much in the way of examples of how taxes "remove wealth from the economy" unless those taxes are sent outside our borders...because that wealth, while it is certainly being moved (or 'redistributed', to use the conservative meme), is not being taken out of the economy, and you know it.

What? I was talking about the taxes themselves, which is the removal of money from the economy. I wasn't talking about any effort to put that money back into the economy, which is indeed wasteful and inefficient.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Okay, what's the difference?

The meaning behind the word "regulate" was to keep regular meaning the job of the federal government was to settle trade disputes between the listed members. The courts have since decided that the word "regulate" means to control or supervise something (especially a company or business activity) by means of rules and regulations.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

But you're not understanding that that's all taxation is: taking money from person A to hand to person B. The only differences lay in why the government gives that money to person B. Usually, that money is given to person B for a service, say, that of a teacher or a soldier or an IRS agent or an OSHA inspector. Other times, that money is given to non-governmental agencies, like companies or corporations for services (road maintenance or facility cleaning) or goods (office supplies, toilet paper, food for the vending machines) or even research and development (Lockheed Skunk Works, etc.). Sometimes that money is given to foreign individuals, agencies, or nations...these can be for any of thousands of reasons, from wildlife preservation to counterinsurgency support to protection of intelligence assets to outright bribes.

I wasn't referring to all taxation necessary for the government to perform the function of governing. I was referring specifically to taxation for the purpose of handing the money out as charity.

I disagree with your theory that handing out government charity results in a better society overall, but that's not the point. My point is that it's unethical to take money from A in order to hand it over to B. If Charlie robs Alice and then turns around and gives the money to Barbara, Charlie has acted unethically, despite the fact that he thinks he has helped Barbara.

 

[Federalist]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Every economist knows there is no such thing as a real free market. You need to start over from there.

A free market is nothing more than an environment in which people freely engage in voluntary exchange. Unless you contend that no two people engage in voluntary exchange, then your assertion must be wrong.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

its actually the gun banning left that wants innocent people hurt. Its only the criminals they worry about. anyone who supports arming victims is seen as right libertarian extremism by the criminal empowerment sector

Nonsense. Worse - its nonsense that is a lie when it is uttered but is done so with complete disregard for the truth. You and I both know that this entire discussion is about the margins and edges and very few people take the position that they want to ban guns as a part of repealing the Second Amendment. People like myself fully support firearm ownership and feel it is important for things like self defense, home and business protection, hunting and sporting, hobby collecting and other constructive uses.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Yeah, about what?

your previous statements about embracing violence.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Baloney. But your thinking some could say is extreme. You focus on those who have more as being unfair. It is envy not compassion. You begin with the rich and when the wealth of the 1 percent no longer is sufficient for what you want you will then hone in on ever smaller subsets of the rich. Well not everyone seeks to be wealthy. A minister or a farmer certainly doesn't chose their professions because it is going to make them wealthy. A 25 year old isn't going to know the wealth of a 65 year old who has spent a lifetime earning it. And there seems to be a growing number in our society willing to destroy their lives through drug addictions/crime/failure to seek all the advantages of an education/reproducing children before they can even provide for themselves. Yet you throw all classes into one pile and then claim income inequality instead of focusing on the rights afforded to all to pursue wealth in a free market society if they so choose.

I have not taken any position based on fairness.

Nor have I taken any position based on what you call envy.

I have never taken any position that all people should have an equal income.

I fully support the right of people to earn wealth in our society.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

There was 100 members originally, so exactly how did they cover the cost and make the work profitable? I sure hope you aren't trying to add people to the group for your argument.

The REMC's had (and still have) millions of members.

 

[jonny5]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You should note the the methodology for the last leg of your graph( top 400 households ) is different than the rest. Not really sure why anyone would produce a graph like that.

Tax Policy Center has the top .1% having an effective tax rate of 32.1%

Here it is by quintile

 

[haymarket]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I'm sorry but for many I do think envy has much to do with it.

The idea that ENVY motivates people to support progressive tax policies is one of the most intellectually dishonest positions anyone can take. It is intended to be both a barb directed at the person taking the position....... its a childish 'you are not as rich as we are .... na na na na na na ... that makes us better than you' position that is a self proclaimed pat on the back for the person making the envy charge.

The fact is that it was rich Americans who championed the progressive taxation on the rich such as the inheritance and estate tax and that includes one of the richest men in the world at the time Andrew Carnegie among others.

Was Carnegie guilty of being envious? :doh:roll::shock:

People who throw out the envy charge are simply trying to besmirch the proponents of progressive taxation by insulting them and ascribing personal motivations to them rather than treating it honestly like a public policy proposal to help our nation and its people.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

its actually the gun banning left that wants innocent people hurt. Its only the criminals they worry about. anyone who supports arming victims is seen as right libertarian extremism by the criminal empowerment sector

Not only is this post far off-topic, but it an astoundingly fallacious strawman. Do you really believe that "the left" wants innocent people hurt or do you simply start typing without thinking about the content? The reality, of course, is that liberals believe that strong gun laws reduce gun violence and conservatives believe the opposite. Considering the fact that America has a much higher gun violence rate than the countries that strongly restrict private ownership of guns, the liberals have a good case. Dismissing their view with 'they want more people hurt,' is an incredibly absurd viewpoint.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Here it is by quintile

The first thing that I note is that Q1 is below 5% when Social Security tax alone is 6.2% and Medicare tax is 2.9%. That means together Q1 should be 9.1% if they paid no income tax at all.

What we do see is that the top quintile has increased their real income over time while all other quintiles are stagnant.

 

[jonny5]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The first thing that I note is that Q1 is below 5% when Social Security tax alone is 6.2% and Medicare tax is 2.9%. That means together Q1 should be 9.1% if they paid no income tax at all.

THis is because its 'effective tax rate', after tax credits. The lowest quintiles get more taxes back than they pay in. If you just look at their income tax, they actually have a negative tax rate of -6%.

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/effective_rates_0.pdf

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Not only is this post far off-topic, but it an astoundingly fallacious strawman. Do you really believe that "the left" wants innocent people hurt or do you simply start typing without thinking about the content? The reality, of course, is that liberals believe that strong gun laws reduce gun violence and conservatives believe the opposite. Considering the fact that America has a much higher gun violence rate than the countries that strongly restrict private ownership of guns, the liberals have a good case. Dismissing their view with 'they want more people hurt,' is an incredibly absurd viewpoint.

why are you complaining about me being off topic when I was responding to another poster who brought the gun issue up here


and yes I believe what I said based on many years of dealing with anti gun politicians. LIberal run cities have high rates of gun violence compared to nearby areas that don't have silly restrictions on honest people.

 

[vesper]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The idea that ENVY motivates people to support progressive tax policies is one of the most intellectually dishonest positions anyone can take. It is intended to be both a barb directed at the person taking the position....... its a childish 'you are not as rich as we are .... na na na na na na ... that makes us better than you' position that is a self proclaimed pat on the back for the person making the envy charge.

The fact is that it was rich Americans who championed the progressive taxation on the rich such as the inheritance and estate tax and that includes one of the richest men in the world at the time Andrew Carnegie among others.

Was Carnegie guilty of being envious? :doh:roll::shock:

People who throw out the envy charge are simply trying to besmirch the proponents of progressive taxation by insulting them and ascribing personal motivations to them rather than treating it honestly like a public policy proposal to help our nation and its people.

Policy is determined by the representation the voters send to Congress. What word would you like to use to describe people who vote themselves benefits they did not earn and at the cost of other citizens? What word would you like to use to describe someone who will elect representation that will exclude them in any personal responsibility in paying for things like roads they use daily and the benefits of secured borders? What word would you like to use to describe a person that elects individuals that will increase spending and create huge debt/deficits for future generations to bear for their own benefit?

 

[Samhain]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The first thing that I note is that Q1 is below 5% when Social Security tax alone is 6.2% and Medicare tax is 2.9%. That means together Q1 should be 9.1% if they paid no income tax at all.

Only if they paid 0% on their income. Due to the credits available, they pay a negative percentage, thus the overall rate below those two payroll taxes combined.

 

[Arbo]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You said you wanted to see people treated all the same - which would normally mean that you should be liberal. Why? Who is it that has fought for civil rights and equality for all people, whether of color or gender or gender identity? It was never a "Democratic" or "Republican" thing...but it was always the liberals of either party who fought for equality, and it was always the conservatives of either party who fought against equality.

An unrealistic and twisted view of history. Again, nothing shocking coming from you.

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

why are you complaining about me being off topic when I was responding to another poster who brought the gun issue up here


and yes I believe what I said based on many years of dealing with anti gun politicians. LIberal run cities have high rates of gun violence compared to nearby areas that don't have silly restrictions on honest people.

I typically note when posts are off-topic. If I saw the one you mentioned, I would have noted it too.

On gun violence related to liberal rule, that's pure baloney. This is the map of gun violence. The highest rates are in red states.

source

 

[MTAtech]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Policy is determined by the representation the voters send to Congress. What word would you like to use to describe people who vote themselves benefits they did not earn and at the cost of other citizens? What word would you like to use to describe someone who will elect representation that will exclude them in any personal responsibility in paying for things like roads they use daily and the benefits of secured borders? What word would you like to use to describe a person that elects individuals that will increase spending and create huge debt/deficits for future generations to bear for their own benefit?

Oh, you mean like when Bank of American was bailed out by taxpayers, then earned over $4 billion dollars and didn't pay any taxes, while donating heavily to political campaigns?