"Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

lizzie said:

Essentially, if the government is the one paying the bills, they do technically have the power. That being said, if the parents can afford to pay for around-the-clock care, or they are willing to provide the care and expenses themselves, it's a different matter.

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If this was malpractice, who pays is those responsible. However, the government is paying for severely mentally birth defective including severely mentally handicapped children - and who need constant medical attention, care and costs all the time.

Child with no brain - now age 2. I have no doubt the government has paid plenty. Should that child be killed because he's "a corpse," "already dead" - to save the costs? That seems to be what you are saying.


I wonder how many thousands, probably tens of thousands of people are alive - that doctors insisted it was impossible? And how many more were killed on such false - and PROFITABLE - declarations by doctors?

Do you think that "brainless" child is "meaningless" to parents? That the "dead" child's body should be destroyed to save the $$ and because that would be best for those parents?

Many, many MILLIONS of Americans of all ages can not live without life support equipment - and the government is picking up the tab. How many MILLIONS of old folks are dependent upon oxygen - would die without it - and the government picking up the tab? Take away their oxygen unless they somehow can pay for it? Take away, stop paying for their insulin? Their anti-HIV prescriptions? Heart medication? Nebulizers? Turn off the "iron lungs" on polio victims?

Turn off all the medical machinery and cut off all payments for 3 months to get those people off the government tit? Just let them die off "naturally?" Easy for some to say. But that isn't what they say when they themselves are in ER or a critical care unit. So easy to write off other people's lives as too costly.

The government rains money down on the poor, sick and even those in such conditions thru their own ongoing misconduct. So what's the special need to quick kill off that girl's body?

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

joko104 said:

If this was malpractice, who pays is those responsible. However, the government is paying for severely mentally birth defective including severely mentally handicapped children - and who need constant medical attention, care and costs all the time.

Child with no brain - now age 2. I have no doubt the government has paid plenty. Should that child be killed because he's "a corpse," "already dead" - to save the costs? That seems to be what you are saying.


Do you think that "brainless" child is "meaningless" to parents? That the "dead" child's body should be destroyed to save the $$ and because that would be best for those parents?

Many, many people of all ages can not live without life support equipment - and the government is picking up the tab. How many MILLIONS of old folks are dependent upon oxygen - would die without it - and the government picking up the tab? Take away their oxygen unless they somehow can pay for it?

The government rains money down on the poor, sick and even those in such conditions thru their own ongoing misconduct. So what's the special need to quick kill off that girl's body?

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What I am saying is that if the parents can pay for his care, then they are the ones who ultimately have the power to decide. I have absolutely no need to kill off her body. I told you what I would do, and I told you why. Does there come a point in time when the monetary cost outweighs the benefit? Imo, yes, there does. I can't make that decision, but if I were the parent of a child in a brain-dead state, I can assure you I would not be expecting the whole of society to be picking up the bill for my emotional attachments.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

Ben K. said:

She is dead in a biological sense.


Death - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster

The brain stem is destroyed. It cannot support these functions and the state is irreversible.

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From your own definition:

the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity :

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Her heart and respiration continue. She's not biologically dead.

Since the rest of your argument is based on your faulty interpretation of that definition, I won't waste my time responding to it point by point.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

What life support machines is Jahi McMath hooked up to if she is breathing on her own?

One of the reasons she had the tonsillectomy was because of her breathing difficulties/sleep apnea.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

I'm bumping this, noticing that those who think they should quick turn off life support absolutely refuse to even discuss it. They got a slogan and they're sticking to it, like so many on the abortion threads do. Reality is irrelevant, just their slogans.

joko104 said:

Dr John B Shea, retired diagnostic radiologist & fellow of the Royal College of Canada, says: "A diagnosis of death by neurological criteria is theory, not scientific fact". He was talking about so-called "brain death", a medical concept invented in 1968 by Harvard Medical School to allow the retrieval of vital organs from still living patients.
Dr Paul A Byrne, neonatologist and pediatrician, says: "In order to be suitable for transplant, (heart, liver, lungs, kidneys and pancreas) need to be removed from the donor before respiration and circulation cease. Otherwise, these organs are not suitable, since damage to the organs occurs within a brief time after circulation of blood with oxygen stops."

Friends... there is growing evidence that "brain death" is a medical fallacy, which cannot be accurately diagnosed. There is a growing number of patients who were declared "brain-dead", only to later spontaneously revive and live. Here are some actual survivor cases:

• Zach Dunlap, a 21 year old Oklahoma man, was "feeling pretty good" four months after he was diagnosed as "brain dead". Zach suffered severe brain injuries in a quad bike accident in Texas in 2007. He was declared "brain dead" and prepped for organ donation. But minutes before surgery commenced, he spontaneously revived when a concerned friend scratched his foot. Zach later told a TV show that he heard the doctors pronounce him dead, but was unable to do anything about it.
  
  
• Steven Thorpe,17 year old Warwickshire youth, was declared "brain dead" by four doctors in 2008, but his parents did not give up on him, and insisted on another opinion from an independent GP and a neurosurgeon. Steven made an unexpected recovery and left hospital alive seven weeks later.[/B] He had suffered severe head injuries during a major collision between a car in which he was travelling and a runaway horse.
  
  
• Rae Kupferschmidt, 65 year old Minnesota woman, suffered a massive cerebral hemorrhage in 2008 and doctors diagnosed her as "brain dead". She was taken home to die and her family began making funeral arrangements. When Rae spontaneously sucked an ice cube offered by her daughter, she was found to be alive. She later walked.
  
  
• Gloria Cruz, 56 year old Northern Territory woman, was declared "brain dead" in 2011 and expected to 'die' within 48 hours. A doctor, a social worker and a 'patient advocate' urged her husband to remove the ventilator and let her 'die'. But he refused and 3 days later, Gloria revived, awoke from her coma and was getting around hospital in a wheelchair.

Clearly these survivor cases prove that "brain death" is a highly questionable concept that is putting lives at risk.Don't abandon brain-injured people. Say "NO" to organ donation. My website, http://www.OrganFacts.net, is aimed at exposing the truth about organ donation and organ transplants, and the clear danger that industry presents to brain-injured people.

Survivors of Brain Death Prove It's a Medical Fallacy


They want that little girls organs. The hospital doesn't want to spend any more money on her. They don't want the liability of the costs and damages caring for her if she is instead severely brain damaged and no brain dead. That's why they put papers in front of the poor mother saying Quick! Sign here right now!

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I'd be fighting for MY child's life and living for that hope, even if the odds 1 in a billion. It is sad it seems most people, ie then most parents, don't feel the same way about their kids.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

sangha said:

From your own definition:

Her heart and respiration continue. She's not biologically dead.

Since the rest of your argument is based on your faulty interpretation of that definition, I won't waste my time responding to it point by point.

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These are biologically alive as well I take it?

Beating heart cadaver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank God you'll stop responding, it's getting tiresome.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

sangha said:

Her heart and respiration continue. She's not biologically dead..

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her heart and respiration continue only because they are forced to by machines. pull the plug and if her heart and respiration still continue....she's not dead

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

Ben K. said:

These are biologically alive as well I take it?

Beating heart cadaver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank God you'll stop responding, it's getting tiresome.

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From your link

This will keep the organs of the dead body, including the heart, functioning and alive for a few days

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re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

OscarB63 said:

her heart and respiration continue only because they are forced to by machines. pull the plug and if her heart and respiration still continue....she's not dead

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And pull the support for a ZEF (ie remove it from the womb), and it will also die.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

sangha said:

From your link

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You bolded the wrong part.

keep the organs of the dead body, including the heart, functioning and alive for a few days

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Eventually (with much book learning) you may be able to distinguish between a living organism and living tissue.

Regardless, do you consider the organism living for those few days?

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

joko104 said:

I'd be fighting for MY child's life and living for that hope, even if the odds 1 in a billion. It is sad it seems most people, ie then most parents, don't feel the same way about their kids.

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Way to sit in judgment of others, Joko, when you have no idea how you would be responding right now if you were in this family's situation. Until you have walked through the valley of the shadow of death with your own child, you are just speculating.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

sangha said:

From your own definition:

Her heart and respiration continue. She's not biologically dead.

Since the rest of your argument is based on your faulty interpretation of that definition, I won't waste my time responding to it point by point.

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Is she not on a ventilator? If so, then her respiratory function is mechanical, not biological.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

THE ORGAN DONATION INDUSTRY! Declare them brain dead, harvest their parts and make big money!


Not dead yet!

Christina Nichole

“Don’t cut me open — don’t hurt me! Let me wake up!.” While doctors hovered over her bed… discussing organ donation, Christina Nichole could hear every word they said – and their conversation terrified her.

Christina Nichole suffered severe hypoglycemia (her blood sugar levels dropped) on July 15, 2004 after taking the medication Zyprexa and she lapsed in and out of coma. Doctors transferred her to Sacred Heart Medical Center, Spokane WA and placed her on life support in Neuro ICU. Doctors could only theorise as to what caused her condition. Then Christina was paralysed with powerful drugs to prevent her hyperventilating.
Christina Nichole Thornsberry in coma .

After only six days, Dr. Bender, Head Neurologist for Christina during her coma, and Dr Palukuru reported that she had “severe global brain injury” and, diagnosed her as “brain dead” with no chance of recovery. They recommended “reduction in the level of care” and no further tests. (Facts based on medical report viewed 17 November 2013 at CHRISTINA NICHOLE’S COMA MIRACLE | THORNSBERRY MANOR)

Christina was paralysed and could not move or cry out or respond in any way to any communication, but her mother refused to give up on her and knew that her daughter was actually still alive. “I knew she was still in there and I started working to prove that”, Judy Thornsberry told the South Beach Bulletin. But it wasn’t easy to convince doctors, who started pressuring Christina’s parents to donate her organs.
The family reports that:
Doctors thought that Christine was dead, but she was actually alive and heard every word they said

It was clear that they wanted to kill her and harvest whatever they could from her body because they harassed us for 10 days to sign papers to allow them to do that. Why did they want her dead? Government insurance? Body parts on the market? We want answers and no one wants to answer the questions.


Christina’s blog site reports that:

While doctors hovered over her bed… she (Christina) could hear every word they said – and their conversation terrified her. They were talking about harvesting her organs for transplant! They said she was brain-dead – no chance she’d ever recover. But they didn’t realize that although she couldn’t move or speak Christina was still very much alive.


The National Enquirer reports that “Judy stayed at her daughter’s bedside for days to watch for signs that there was life inside her frozen body.” She urged her to blink. Then she felt a tiny movement of Christina’s eyelids. Doctors told Judy that she was ‘imagining’ it.


But Judy persisted, and asked Christina questions, to which she blinked once for Yes and twice for No. Still the doctors dismissed these signs as merely ‘spontaneous movements’.


Then, after ten days in coma, Christina made a clear sign to doctors that she was still there inside her body… very much alive and aware of what was happening to her:


Mom told me… to squeeze the neurologist’s finger. She put my hand around his finger, and I squeezed with all my strength ‐ and felt him pull away!)


From that moment everything changed and the doctors and staff began treating Christina as a patient instead of a corpse. “ They started fighting for Christina’s life instead of just her organs”.

Christina was transferred to rehabilitation, and within six weeks she was well enough to go home. Thank God she had a mother who would not give up on her in her hour of desperate need.

http://www.organfacts.net/notdead/christina-nichole/

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

Anyone else had their fill yet of this conspiracy theory nonsense?

The "National Enquirer," joko? Really?

Did Reagan's meeting with those aliens go well, too?

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

JayDubya said:

Anyone else had their fill yet of this conspiracy theory nonsense?

The "National Enquirer," joko? Really?

Did Reagan's meeting with those aliens go well, too?

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Try reading sometime. "Dr David W Evans , Retired Consultant in Cardiology" is the source. The woman did give an interview to the National Enquirer as well.

I understand your scientific material and ideology comes from "The Urban Dictionary.":lamo

My message is citing a Consultant in Cardiology. Try reading the link again.

"I could never have allowed one of my children to be used as an organ donor. To me, that would have been the betrayal of the absolute trust which a child has in his parents. I cannot imagine any parent who knew the facts, as I do, allowing his or her child to be so abused in departing this life. That some have been persuaded to agree to it forces me to conclude that they cannot have been fully and fairly informed.

As for the procurement of kidneys and parts of livers from healthy donors, I can only say that I don’t know how any doctor can operate on his patient not for his good but knowingly to do him harm."

Yours sincerely,

David Evans

Retired Consultant in Cardiology, Papworth & Addenbrooke’s Hospitals

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

sangha said:

And pull the support for a ZEF (ie remove it from the womb), and it will also die.

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Sangha...no matter how many times you say the above...it falls on deaf pro-life ears.

It's amazing that Pro-life don't get the comparison between a brain dead child on life support (used to at last keep its body alive) and a 12 week old fetus, which 85% are aborted, also has no significant brain function and it's life support system is a uterus...without it....it can't survive.

Now the argument is or will be...But, but, but a 12 week old fetus' brain is developing. Yes...but there's no guarantee that it will develop normally. There's no guarantee that if brought to full term that it will have a normal quality of life, much less quantity of life.

And others like the OP argument have declared...hey, there have been persons who have been declared brain dead survive. But now that this child is born...pro-life want to abandoned it. The example that comes to mind is Terri Schiavo. She was declared brain dead and eventually removed from life support. Her body remained functioning off of life support. But people in her life who declared that she didn't have any quality of life...let her starve to death. I say that did it because their lives were inconvenienced by Schiavo's poor quality of life.

Now Tigger argues that such a person would have no quality of life. When many women who decide to abort...make the judgement that any child that they might bring into this would would have no quality of life...she's a murderer in the eyes of pro-life.

There is an obvious hypocrisy at work here by pro-life.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

A fact many people do not know, is that for organ harvesting they inject the donor with drugs that make it impossible for the person to move their body in any manner, but the person is still mentally conscious and still feels the pain of being cut up. Hospitals and doctors can make ANYONE APPEAR to be brain dead with no body activity merely by an injection.

The heart, kidneys, parts of her liver, eyes, and more parts of that 13 year old is worth lots and lots of $$.

It is well documented (and I've now cited many) where doctors - even many in agreement - have falsely declared someone "brain dead" - because they want the person's body parts for someone else. The rich old guy in a room down the hall needs one of her kidneys or her heart sort of thing. There is a shortage of kidneys and hearts. If that rich old guy dies before getting it, they'll lose tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars as a result.

So if that little girl really isn't "brain dead," rather that just an all too common lie and really she is just severely injured, they would literally be cutting her up alive - and would keep her alive as long as possible to maximize harvesting her parts while cutting her part - her unable to move and only screaming in pain in her mind totally helpless - no pain killers used because they don't want the drug in the body parts. They could be cutting her up alive for hours. Or longer to keep her parts alive. What could a parent allow that is more horrifying to be done to their child than that?

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

If "David Evans" is real he's a socially irresponsible whackadoo for discouraging charitable organ donation. But then again maybe that's just what the aliens want us to think.

The truth is out there, Joko.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

OscarB63 said:

do you even know what anencephaly is?

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Yes. Do you? But you stated

"the problem with your comment is that even the most rabid anti-abortionists agree that abortion is OK in the event the fetus is anencephalic"

This was first on the google list.

Prenatal Partners for Life: Anencephaly Stories

I want you to back up your most statement.

Where do you get your information from?

I have no information on "most" - but you apparently do . Just back it up

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

Removable Mind said:

Sangha...no matter how many times you say the above...it falls on deaf pro-life ears.

It's amazing that Pro-life don't get the comparison between a brain dead child on life support (used to at last keep its body alive) and a 12 week old fetus, which 85% are aborted, also has no significant brain function and it's life support system is a uterus...without it....it can't survive.

Now the argument is or will be...But, but, but a 12 week old fetus' brain is developing. Yes...but there's no guarantee that it will develop normally. There's no guarantee that if brought to full term that it will have a normal quality of life, much less quantity of life.

And others like the OP argument have declared...hey, there have been persons who have been declared brain dead survive. But now that this child is born...pro-life want to abandoned it. The example that comes to mind is Terri Schiavo. She was declared brain dead and eventually removed from life support. Her body remained functioning off of life support. But people in her life who declared that she didn't have any quality of life...let her starve to death. I say that did it because their lives were inconvenienced by Schiavo's poor quality of life.

Now Tigger argues that such a person would have no quality of life. When many women who decide to abort...make the judgement that any child that they might bring into this would would have no quality of life...she's a murderer in the eyes of pro-life.

There is an obvious hypocrisy at work here by pro-life.

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Also amazing is your not understanding the difference between a beginning and growing life and the end of life. Just amazing.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

nota bene said:

Also amazing is your not understanding the difference between a beginning and growing life and the end of life. Just amazing.

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I'm amazed that you claim that you do. Just amazing

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

You're easily amazed, aren't you?

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

joko104 said:

I could again document people declared brain dead by numerous doctors in fact recovering - which you of course would again ignore. Facts are irrelevant to you, aren't they?

.

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Just to be clear, most of the cases I have heard about "recovering" revolve around doctors not following the appropriate guidlelines. There is a very specific set of criteria even for a patient to be suitable for the test . The "recovered" patients that I have heard about had poorly administered tests or should never have qualified for the test.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

JayDubya said:

If "David Evans" is real he's a socially irresponsible whackadoo for discouraging charitable organ donation. But then again maybe that's just what the aliens want us to think.

The truth is out there, Joko.

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You should stop pretending you care about children - before or after birth. Your messages make it clear you're just into raging against women, nothing else.

re: "Pro-Life" - What would you do for this child????[W:350]

year2late said:

Just to be clear, most of the cases I have heard about "recovering" revolve around doctors not following the appropriate guidlelines. There is a very specific set of criteria even for a patient to be suitable for the test . The "recovered" patients that I have heard about had poorly administered tests or should never have qualified for the test.

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OBVIOUSLY the declared test results were wrong. And, as I note, were done wrong by as many as 4 different doctors too.

But that doesn't change anything. Do you think in those cases they told the parents/children/relatives: "We poorly administers unqualified tests and that bad testing method we used determined your child/parent is brain dead." Or that the test results were certain and accurate? How is that any different this time?

Knowing the huge profit motives, how do you as a parent know? Do you think that mother has any clue what is a valid testing method OR any way to know if they really did so? Do think they mentioned how much $$ they can make off her daughter's parts, not just how much her daughter is costing them?