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Pro-Israel groups withdraw support from Pride Demonstrations due to their support for Palestinian humanity

cpwill said:
To count HAMAS' lies, you would have to count all their public statements. Even if you bracketed by time (say, starting with "no women or children were targeted on Oct 7th"), you'd become quickly overwhelmed.
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Israel is also 'not targeting women and children', right? That's why kids are being carried into hospitals with snipers bullets to the forehead? I am very happy to go down Israel's nearly infinite list of lies and contrast them with Hamas.

Shall we do this for real, or just play around? Don't jab at me with this nonsense. Hit me with your best shot.


cpwill said:
We told Israel at the beginning they were losing the information war, because western media was getting fed by HAMAS, but not by them. They were focused on other issues and not terribly receptive (of course, this was in, like, OCT/NOV, and, they were still pretty raw).
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Israel immediately started lying and feeding lies to the media. 40 beheaded babies, babies in ovens, fabricated claims of mass rape. Why do they have to lie if the truth is on their side?

cpwill said:
Israel plays into their hands by not prioritizing the information fight, as HAMAS does, which cedes some advantage, especially given that mainstream press in the West is already sympathetic to HAMAS and hostile to Israel. They should do a much better job on this front.
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You mean that Israel doesn't lock down information tight enough while they commit mass atrocities on a scale that hasn't been seen since this century. We know that what leaks out is only a trickle compared to the actual story. And when this story is revealed, what will be your excuse for blocking for these blatant atrocities? You can't claim you didn't know.

cpwill said:
However, Israel does not go out and wantonly slaughter random Palestinian civilians - that is a HAMAS narrative that they put out, knowing that useful fools in the West will pick it up and repeat it, increasing pressure on Israel to hand HAMAS a strategic victory.
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Anyone who thinks Israel doesn't target civilians is a fool at best. Israel also also target journalists. And food aid trucks.

cpwill said:
And you believe this happened because HAMAS told you so?
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No, a doctor who lost 100 family members went on Democracy Now and told his story. Is he HAMAS? Well, according to pro-Israeli fools (and worse), he is. They actually think NRWRA is Hamas.



cpwill said:
Did you also believe them when they claimed that Israel had destroyed the Al Ahli Arab Hospital, killing hundreds, when in fact, it had been a PIJ rocket that had struck the parking lot?
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The jury is still out on that, and Israel didn't let an independent investigation occur like Hamas wanted. Why did Israel doctor evidence if the truth is so apparent?

cpwill said:
Actually I meant things like building schools on top of command posts, and using hospitals and other civilian structures and populations as a shield for military action. Using Palestinians as Human Shields is an integral and major part of HAMAS' strategy.
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Show me the evidence.

cpwill said:
This is not the case for Israel, though I have no doubt you will get individual occurrences on the battlefield as soldiers respond to brutal conditions brutally (and they shouldn't).

However, it's useful that you cited the source you did - because those accusations are coming from an Israeli media outlet (the oppositionist and far-left Haaretz). Even assuming (and, we shouldn't on it's face) that the incidents claimed are all correctly described, Israel has corrective mechanisms in place that militate against use of human shields as policy.

If you want to say the individual incidents are wrong - right there with you.
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You'd have to be a fool to believe that incidents or gang rape, torture, sniping children and doctors, and USING HUMAN SHIELDS isn't widely accepted within the IDF. It's gone into overdrive now.

cpwill said:
If you want to say that it is likely that the IDF isn't exactly aggressive in hunting down accusations and rumors of such (which is most of what Haaretz is reporting, here); I would have zero surprise to find that out. But to draw an equivalency? No.
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I'm not drawing an equivalency, I'm saying that Israel is demonstrably worse by every single metric of war crimes and atrocities compared to Hamas.
 
Dans La Lune said:
Israel is also 'not targeting women and children', right? That's why kids are being carried into hospitals with snipers bullets to the forehead? I am very happy to go down Israel's nearly infinite list of lies and contrast them with Hamas.

Shall we do this for real, or just play around? Don't jab at me with this nonsense. Hit me with your best shot.




Israel immediately started lying and feeding lies to the media. 40 beheaded babies, babies in ovens, fabricated claims of mass rape. Why do they have to lie if the truth is on their side?



You mean that Israel doesn't lock down information tight enough while they commit mass atrocities on a scale that hasn't been seen since this century. We know that what leaks out is only a trickle compared to the actual story. And when this story is revealed, what will be your excuse for blocking for these blatant atrocities? You can't claim you didn't know.



Anyone who thinks Israel doesn't target civilians is a fool at best. Israel also also target journalists. And food aid trucks.



No, a doctor who lost 100 family members went on Democracy Now and told his story. Is he HAMAS? Well, according to pro-Israeli fools (and worse), he is. They actually think NRWRA is Hamas.





The jury is still out on that, and Israel didn't let an independent investigation occur like Hamas wanted. Why did Israel doctor evidence if the truth is so apparent?



Show me the evidence.



You'd have to be a fool to believe that incidents or gang rape, torture, sniping children and doctors, and USING HUMAN SHIELDS isn't widely accepted within the IDF. It's gone into overdrive now.



I'm not drawing an equivalency, I'm saying that Israel is demonstrably worse by every single metric of war crimes and atrocities compared to Hamas.
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I will get back to this later, but, honestly, if you are already going down the conspiracy theory rabbit trail, this may not prove to be a fruitful exchange. Once someone starts down there, their conclusions become non-falsifiable, and they become immune to evidence.
 
dseag2 said:
As a gay man, I love it when straight people talk about what we should support (although I appreciate the respect in this thread). From my perspective, I think it is lunacy for the LGBTQ population to be marching in pro-Palestine protests because as others have said they would be killed by Palestinians for being gay. Israel may not be up to America's standards, but at least they are tolerant.
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That's a bit like a Buddhist saying, "I don't mind the Holocaust, they didn't target Buddhists". You should mind the oppression and murder regardless. You can oppose Muslims' views and actions regarding gay people, and oppose people murdering them. In fact, it's important you do. Israel (Much worse than Hamas) is using the issue for propaganda for murder. Don't fall for it and support it.
 
cpwill said:
I will get back to this later, but, honestly, if you are already going down the conspiracy theory rabbit trail, this may not prove to be a fruitful exchange. Once someone starts down there, their conclusions become non-falsifiable, and they become immune to evidence.
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I've been called a conspiracy theorist on this overarching issue, only to be repeatedly vindicated. It's now a 'doubt me now, quote me later' routine on how often I've been right. I'm not a miracle man, I just follow the evidence.

Past claims of conspiracies: No Hannibal Directive on October 7th (there was), Mass Rapes were real (despite a lack of evidence), 40 beheaded babies (absolute bullshit), babies in ovens (again, bullshit).

And basically, everything Israel has accused Hamas of, Israel is actually doing, almost in plain sight.
 
Dans La Lune said:
I've been called a conspiracy theorist on this overarching issue, only to be repeatedly vindicated. It's now a 'doubt me now, quote me later' routine on how often I've been right. I'm not a miracle man, I just follow the evidence.

Past claims of conspiracies: No Hannibal Directive on October 7th (there was), Mass Rapes were real (despite a lack of evidence), 40 beheaded babies (absolute bullshit), babies in ovens (again, bullshit).

And basically, everything Israel has accused Hamas of, Israel is actually doing, almost in plain sight.
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Okedoke, let's scope down to one, and "follow the evidence".

You claimed "the Jury was still out" on HAMAS' propaganda claims that Israel had destroyed the Al Ahli Arab Hospital and killed over 500 people (Mind you, those claims weren't credible on their face when they happened - you don't have casualty counts 10 minutes or 15 minutes after an event like that. But, little details like that don't stop HAMAS from making those kinds of claims, nor do they stop HAMAS' useful fools in Western media from repeating them). This claim was immediately picked up with and ran by the international media.

Then, actual evidence came to light in the form of satellite, infrared, signals intelligence, and other data. The Intelligence Communities of the U.S., the U.K., Canada, and France all independently came to the opposite conclusion - that it was, indeed, as those two HAMAS fighters on the ground who didn't realize they were being recorded said, a PIJ rocket, and that the building - far from being destroyed, was still standing. You can go look at it yourself on satellite imagery:

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The media was then forced to run a series of mea culpa's and explainers about having run with a false story from HAMAS (though, mind you, that hasn't really stopped them from taking HAMAS claims since).

The evidence all points to the same conclusion - that a PIJ rocket struck the parking lot, sympathetically detonating the fuel in the vehicles there, and creating a fireball. The independent investigations by multiple external professional intelligence services all came to the same conclusion - that a PIJ rocket struck the parking lot, sympathetically detonating the fuel in the vehicles there, and creating a fireball. You can go look at the imagery from the day after yourself, and see that HAMAS claims were BS. And against all that you have.... a HAMAS claim that wasn't even credible at the time it was issued.

So, for "the jury to still be out", all those western intelligence services and every single public satelite imagery provider - whether U.S., Chinese, Indian, etc. - would all have to be "in on it". And nobody - nobody - talked.

Are they all in on it, @Dans La Lune?
 
@Dans La Lune The Holocaust was horrific, and included ovens (as far as I know, after they were killed in showers, and I don't want to know if that's not correct so not checking).

What kind of people would disrespect those victims, by making up lies about Hamas putting babies in ovens, for propaganda to try to stir up rage to build a bloodlust to kill more innocent people? The Nazis are not a toy for murderers to exploit for their crimes. They're far worse than Holocaust deniers, and they're the government of Israel (Much worse than Hamas).
 
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