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Presidential pardon power and its abuse

Cordelier said:
Tom Gaither died the other day. Back in 1961, he and eight friends staged a sit-in at the luncheon counter McCrory's Dime Store in Rock Hill, SC. It didn't take too long before they were arrested for violating South Carolina's Jim Crow laws. Now, the usual practice was for Civil Rights demonstrators to pay the standard $100 fine and go out and live their lives in Jim Crow "paradise". But Tom and his friends weren't going to do that. Innocent men don't pay fines. That's admitting guilt and paying into the very system that oppressed them. So instead, they started the "Jail, No Bail" movement and were duly sentenced to serve their 30-day sentence on a Chain Gang in lieu of a fine. Serving on a chain gang in the Jim Crow south surrounded by a bunch of white men sporting shades and shotguns was no frivolous undertaking. A man find find himself "trying to escape". But they did it anyway, and their movement caught on throughout the South. There are only so many people you can lock up before the jails start filling up.

I think if Tom were still around, he'd disagree with your statement.
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A big "SO WHAT ?"

A 30 DAY sentence is hardly giving up your life

Now if they had refused to pay a $100 fine and chosen to serve a 30 YEAR sentence, you might have a point
Though I'd say they'd be pretty stupid to do so.

Like I said, the "satisfaction" you might feel for serving your whole life (or close to it), in jail rather than admit guilt, when there was none, come a VERY poor second to enjoying your one and only life.
 
Rich2018 said:
A big "SO WHAT ?"

A 30 DAY sentence is hardly giving up your life

Now if they had refused to pay a $100 fine and chosen to serve a 30 YEAR sentence, you might have a point
Though I'd say they'd be pretty stupid to do so.

Like I said, the "satisfaction" you might feel for serving your whole life (or close to it), in jail rather than admit guilt, when there was none, come a VERY poor second to enjoying your one and only life.
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I don't know what else to tell you, Rich. People who get it, get it.
 
Biden shouldn't have pardoned his son. That was an abuse of the power IMO.

But the effects of pardoning 1400 insurrectionists will prove far worse. It goes beyond mere abuse of a single presidential power. It is an attack on the republic itself.
 
Cordelier said:
Monarchs are above the law. It's my understanding we're supposed to take a dim view of them.
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Well, until they get their heads chopped off.

Even Monarchs need to have some link to reality.
 
Cordelier said:
You've got the right to think whatever you want to think. No prison can ever take that away from you.
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Perhaps not, but it can take away so much more. So much in fact, that I wouldn't sacrifice it for the better part of my life, over accepting a pardon
Indeed, I've never heard of anyone who has

Do you think any of the Jan 6 insurrection rioters pardoned by Trump chose to refuse the pardon and remain in jail ?
 
Rich2018 said:
Perhaps not, but it can take away so much more. So much in fact, that I wouldn't sacrifice it for the better part of my life, over accepting a pardon
Indeed, I've never heard of anyone who has

Do you think any of the Jan 6 insurrection rioters pardoned by Trump chose to refuse the pardon and remain in jail ?
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A quick Google search yield two 1/6 participants who refused pardons:

Pamela Hemphill
Jason Riddle

Also, two of the Death Row inmates whose sentences President Biden recently commuted to life also refused pardons.
 
Peter said:
Well, until they get their heads chopped off.

Even Monarchs need to have some link to reality.
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Back in the old days they used to overthrow the ruling dynasty every few generations or so. Tended to freshen up the bloodlines.

I always thought courtiers used to arrange royal marriages to their first cousins to make their issue easier to manipulate. The whole blood alliance thing always struck me as an excuse.
 
uptower said:
Biden shouldn't have pardoned his son. That was an abuse of the power IMO.
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I cannot condemn his actions, however. It was obvious in advance that Trump intended to engage in retribution, and has a slate of henchmen to carry out his pogrom. In his first week he has started it. Biden, like all of us, wished to thwart that effort by all means available. He simply had more means.
uptower said:
But the effects of pardoning 1400 insurrectionists will prove far worse. It goes beyond mere abuse of a single presidential power. It is an attack on the republic itself.
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As with many GOP actions, any crack in perfection is exploited without compunction. It is THE most corrupt organization in America, and this is a nation rife with organized crime and large scale scammers. To be Republican is to be without scruples. To be MAGA is to be without a conscience or any redeeming value.
 
Cordelier said:
Back in the old days they used to overthrow the ruling dynasty every few generations or so. Tended to freshen up the bloodlines.

I always thought courtiers used to arrange royal marriages to their first cousins to make their issue easier to manipulate. The whole blood alliance thing always struck me as an excuse.
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The blood alliance idea was a way to try and prevent war between nations but it rarely worked as back then Europe loved going to war with itself.

Britain and France have had almost countless wars of occupation against each other.
 
Peter said:
The blood alliance idea was a way to try and prevent war between nations but it rarely worked as back then Europe loved going to war with itself.

Britain and France have had almost countless wars of occupation against each other.
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Yes, but isn't diplomacy so much easier to do when the King is an inbred moron who spends his days showering mementos on the best-dressed members of the Court rather than sticking his nose into the affairs of State?
 
Cordelier said:
Yes, but isn't diplomacy so much easier to do when the King is an inbred moron who spends his days showering mementos on the best-dressed members of the Court rather than sticking his nose into the affairs of State?
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I certainly won't try and argue that monarchs have been a bastion of stability but now and again some can be good and actually try and make things better.
 
Peter said:
I certainly won't try and argue that monarchs have been a bastion of stability but now and again some can be good and actually try and make things better.
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Why roll the dice, though? Isn't it better to just marry them off to their cousins and breed them to be stupid so that the professionals can get down to the real work? I'm sure Cardinal Richelieu didn't mind Louis XIII getting the credit (or blame); he had the power.
 
Peter said:
The blood alliance idea was a way to try and prevent war between nations but it rarely worked as back then Europe loved going to war with itself.

Britain and France have had almost countless wars of occupation against each other.
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Not sure France has ever occupied any part of England. Though French troops have taken part in various rebellions against the English crown, on English soil.
 
Through amendments, all pardons should be banned. Just plain stupid
 
The Hairy Fiddler said:
Through amendments, all pardons should be banned. Just plain stupid
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I disagree. If someone is jailed under one administration (say if Trump could charge former General Miley of treason, and he was subsequently convicted), the next president might not agree that what Miley did was a crime at all.
 
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